I have long wondered when you guys should change from AVI container to something else.
And with the last release (Rad Racer), you actually changed. :)
But to OGM? Isn't MKV the better choice?
KAA Wiki wrote:
Why the switch from AVI?
Recently, KickAssAnime has used AVI less in favor of Matroska Video. Several groups did the same (switching from either AVI or OGM), with the notable exception of fansubs. The main reason behind this are that only Matroska supports two features that play an important role in video quality: anamorphism and Variable Frame Rate. Matroska is also generally considered to be superior to the other containers in every aspect.
We haven't actually switched anything.
I tried OGM for a change because it's the only format I know that can store Vorbis soundtrack, and I wanted to try some better audio codec than MP3. Vorbis is very good.
I tried FAAC before that (FAAC can be put into AVI), but it appeared to be worse[1] than MP3 for NES soundtracks.
However, the "-vf decimate" option can't be used together with OGM format[2], which is a shame because the decimate option (discovered by Dehacked) creates a big saving in the file size.
OGM might have some other mechanism for eliminating identical frames, but it's important that the identical frames are eliminated before feeding them to the codec. This maximizes the effect of the multiple reference frame usage of the X264 codec.
As for MKV (Matroska), I have no experience of it, but I'll maybe look at it some day.
[#1]: FAAC at 40 kbit/s had very clear ringing artifacts, whereas MP3 didn't have that problem.
[#2]: ogmmerge drops frames of zero size, creating serious A/V desync.
First experience of MKV: It works fine, and it does not have the decimated-frame-ignoring problem, but it doesn't seem to support the aspect ratio setting that is supported by AVI and OGM.
Aspect ratio is a number that is embedded to the multimedia file.
It allows saying that although the video resolution is 256x224, it was originally supposed to fill a 4/3 screen, and if played on a 4/3 screen, it should again fill the screen regardless of display resolution instead of having black bars on the sides.
In short, it tells the aspect ratio of the original video.
It's much better solution than to prescale the video to 300x224, because the aspect ratio setting doesn't create any loss in video quality. It's just an instruction to players (which all players don't honor).
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Bisqwit wrote:
Ragowit wrote:
What exactly is "aspect ratio setting"?
Aspect ratio is a number that is embedded to the multimedia file.
It allows saying that although the video resolution is 256x224, it was originally supposed to fill a 4/3 screen, and if played on a 4/3 screen, it should again fill the screen regardless of display resolution instead of having black bars on the sides.
In short, it tells the aspect ratio of the original video.
I didn't realize that the movies on this site have aspect ratio embedded into them. I thought all were just set to square 1:1.
Actually, mkvmerge does support aspect ratio setting apparently.
From mkvmerge --help:
Options that only apply to video tracks:
-f, --fourcc <FOURCC> Forces the FourCC to the specified value.
Works only for video tracks.
--aspect-ratio <TID:f|a/b>
Sets the display dimensions by calculating
width and height for this aspect ratio.
--aspect-ratio-factor <TID:f|a/b>
First calculates the aspect ratio by multi-
plying the video's original aspect ratio
with this factor and calculates the display
dimensions from this factor.
--display-dimensions <TID:width>x<height>
Explicitely set the display dimensions.
--cropping <TID:left,top,right,bottom>
Sets the cropping parameters.
I find it somewhat problematic to switch from avi to another format such as ogm or mkv.
Every media player in the universe supports avi, whether we like that or not (being it a microsoft format and all...), but only a few support ogm and mkv (in some cases the player "supports" them, but not very well).
For example, I once downloaded an mkv file which had multiple soundtracks and a separate subtitle track. No existing player in my system was able to properly play it, even after I installed all the required codecs: They would play both soundtracks at the same time and show the subtitles, and there was no way to turn any of them off. I had to download a new media player specifically to view that mkv file properly (it specifically supported mkv with multiple audio tracks and subtitles).
In other words, an mkv might not work properly even if you have all the proper codecs installed.
AVI files might be limited compared to mkv or ogm, but the main question is, in my opinion, if we really need those extra features for these videos. Do we need multiple audio tracks? Do we need separate subtitles? Do we need anything those formats offer which AVI does not?
If it really is true that for whatever reason it is impossible to embed ogg audio to an avi (as mp3 audio can be embedded), that may be one valid reason to switch to ogm, but only if using ogg really reduces the size of the file substantially. Something like a 10% decrease in file size is still too small to justify the change, in my opinion (no, I don't know how much using ogg instead of mp3 reduces the size of the video file).
(Btw, just tried the radracer ogm file, and Winamp, my usual player, didn't seem to be able to show it. I had to use another player to view it (the core media player).)
Joined: 3/2/2005
Posts: 18
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Warp wrote:
If it really is true that for whatever reason it is impossible to embed ogg audio to an avi (as mp3 audio can be embedded), that may be one valid reason to switch to ogm, but only if using ogg really reduces the size of the file substantially. Something like a 10% decrease in file size is still too small to justify the change, in my opinion (no, I don't know how much using ogg instead of mp3 reduces the size of the video file).
Vorbis produces substancially better sound quality than mp3, which I find a lot more important than file size. Using mp3, you usually have to use 160 kbit/s or more to remove most of the audible artefacts, but it will never sound good. I have listened to Vorbis at 60 kbit/s, but couldn't distinguish it from CD quality audio (although I know others probably can).
I have completely given up listening to mp3 music. If you can listen to music through regular computer speakers, perhaps you won't care that much though.
I also like to say that OGM gives better sound synchronization. AVI files are often slightly off. I don't know about MKV because my experience with it is limited (anime doesn't count here). Again, I don't expect everyone will notice.
Here's my take on the two. I did a single encoding test and converted to AVI (with MP3 audio), OGM, and MKV. Here's the results.
MP3 Audio:
* AVI: 84195854 bytes
* OGM: 75595725 bytes
So simply using OGM over AVI reduces file size dramatically
Vorbis Audio (these might not be as accurate):
* OGM: 74.02 MB
* MKV: 74.84 MB
OGM produces slightly smaller files than MKV, but MKV still beats AVI.
During playback however, seeking with mplayer sometimes causes the audio and video to go out of sync, but it resynchrnoizes within a few seconds. So that gives MKV a few points.
In conclusion, AVI has to go.
Every media player in the universe supports avi, whether we like that or not (being it a microsoft format and all...), but only a few support ogm and mkv (in some cases the player "supports" them, but not very well).
So then all those other media players need an update. :)
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Here's my take on the two. I did a single encoding test and converted to AVI (with MP3 audio), OGM, and MKV. Here's the results.
MP3 Audio:
* AVI: 84195854 bytes
* OGM: 75595725 bytes
So simply using OGM over AVI reduces file size dramatically
Just saying it like that makes such test irrelevant.
If you say "I converted this 256-color image to gif and png, and the file sizes were x and y" that's ok and very relevant. However, if you say "I converted this image to jpeg and jpeg2000 and the file sizes were x and y", without giving any additional info is a no-op.
Naturally when compressing the lossy formats you can achieve any file sizes you want. I can perfectly make an equivalent comparison and say "I converted this video to AVI and OGM and the file sizes were 1MB and 100MB respectively, thus clearly OGM sucks big time".
Is the video data in the AVI and the OGM identical, or do they use different formats? Even if they use the same format, did you re-encode the video when converting the AVI to OGM (or whatever you did) or was it a direct stream copy? Which bitrates did you use for the mp3 and the ogg? Did you try with different bitrates and did you compare their quality? Assuming that you selected bitrates which give approximately equal quality in both, how did you measure this equality? "It sounds ok" is extremely subjective and hardly a substantial unit of measurement.
And even if your test is absolutely perfect, you still saved what? A whopping 10.2% in file size. This at the cost of using a format which won't play in most people's computers.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Warp wrote:
And even if your test is absolutely perfect, you still saved what? A whopping 10.2% in file size. This at the cost of using a format which won't play in most people's computers.
And don't forget peoples DVD players.
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Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
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