That means exactly the same thing in this case. Any other non-arguments we need to go over?
No, yours is enough.
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
I agree with your logic. Which is why we will continue doing what we're doing, because it's less complicated that way.
If your approach was the one that was less complicated we would have used it long ago. We computer people running the site are lazy at heart and like as little complication as possible.
You don't understand my logic though you agree with it. The main problem is you openly admitted to treating everything surrounding judging and such in an overly complicated, legal manner, when there's no need to do so.
Mothrayas wrote:
Dyshonest wrote:
This way we ensure we have a limited, but high-quality and diverse selection of hack runs on the site.
This should be enforced universally or not at all. It shouldn't just be hacks/unlicensed games considering a fair amount of licensed games blow rocks.
Your own post only serves to prove me right - game choice should not be a reason to reject.
You are lying through your teeth if you are telling me either Air hack or HRM play like SMB, very little original gameplay is left.
It is apparent Air 2 will remain obsoleted, and to be frank I don't really care, I was merely pointing out the problems it causes with an unrelated hack obsoleting another.
You keep talking about how there is no "limits" or anything, but then go on to talk about them as if they exist. No one wants "all hacks" published. If all "half-decent" hacks were accepted that even got submitted in the first place (you missed this part massively! You act like we get 1,002,232 submissions per day...), nothing would be "overclogged". Hacks are purely for entertainment value. If no one finds it entertaining, it doesn't get accepted. If people did find it entertaining it makes no sense to put it in a deathmatch with another one on who gets to be the published video...
Though maybe it is time to re-test the waters to see if the original Air hack has merits being published alongside it? Yes, it was a difficulty hack. However it had a very unique feature for SMB hacks---flight.
Your own post only serves to prove me right - game choice should not be a reason to reject.
Yet you want me to "universally enforce" the same rules we do for hacks, because "a fair amount of licensed games blow rocks"? You are just contradicting yourself here.
I explained several times already why we can't accept every unlicensed game, or every hack, or every Super Metroid branch. At the same time, you're both telling me you want equal enforcement for licensed games, then also say "game choice should not be a reason to reject". Those are complete opposites. Which is it?
Dyshonest wrote:
You are lying through your teeth if you are telling me either Air hack or HRM play like SMB, very little original gameplay is left.
Good thing I never said that, then?
That doesn't mean they're not similar though. "HRM plays like Air" is not the same as "HRM is similar to Air".
Dyshonest wrote:
You keep talking about how there is no "limits" or anything, but then go on to talk about them as if they exist.
You keep talking about arbitrary limits, which do not exist. Super Mario World could have a hundred hacks published for all I care, as long as they are all sufficiently different and cover their own niche. There is no limit such as "No more than 3 SMW hacks" or "No more than 1 Super Metroid hack".
Dyshonest wrote:
No one wants "all hacks" published.
xnamkcor does. (Well, as long as the runs are optimized, but that's still applicable to all hacks.)
Dyshonest wrote:
If all "half-decent" hacks were accepted (...), nothing would be "overclogged". Hacks are purely for entertainment value. If no one finds it entertaining, it doesn't get accepted. If people did find it entertaining it makes no sense to put it in a deathmatch with another one on who gets to be the published video...
How would nothing be overclogged? I'd say there easily are dozens of hacks you can make an entertaining run of. Let's suppose people actually decided to make such runs (you apparently keep dismissing that as an impossibility), then we have dozens of hacks of one game clogging up the publication listings.
Dyshonest wrote:
that even got submitted in the first place (you missed this part massively! You act like we get 1,002,232 submissions per day...)
It doesn't matter if we get 100 hack submissions in a day or in a year. In the end, their impact on the publication listing would still be the same.
Dyshonest wrote:
Though maybe it is time to re-test the waters to see if the original Air hack has merits being published alongside it? Yes, it was a difficulty hack. However it had a very unique feature for SMB hacks---flight.
Air was obsoleted because people didn't think it warranted publication anymore when Air 2 was submitted, and Hard Relay Mario was published as a superior hack to Air 2. I don't see the original Air have much of a chance, unique gameplay feature or not.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
Yet you want me to "universally enforce" the same rules we do for hacks, because "a fair amount of licensed games blow rocks"? You are just contradicting yourself here.
I explained several times already why we can't accept every unlicensed game, or every hack, or every Super Metroid branch. At the same time, you're both telling me you want equal enforcement for licensed games, then also say "game choice should not be a reason to reject". Those are complete opposites. Which is it?
If hacks are forced to follow such rules, then all games should. Though I don't think either should be subject to such things and I've expressed this.
That doesn't mean they're not similar though. "HRM plays like Air" is not the same as "HRM is similar to Air".
We have many similar games.
There is no limit such as "No more than 3 SMW hacks" or "No more than 1 Super Metroid hack".
Yet you make it sound like there is.
xnamkcor does. (Well, as long as the runs are optimized, but that's still applicable to all hacks.)
[citation needed]
You and Nach weren't even reading his posts.
I'd say there easily are dozens of hacks you can make an entertaining run of. Let's suppose people actually decided to make such runs (you apparently keep dismissing that as an impossibility), then we have dozens of hacks of one game clogging up the publication listings.
You keep stating hypotheticals as fact. You won't know until it happens.
It doesn't matter if we get 100 hack submissions in a day or in a year. In the end, their impact on the publication listing would still be the same.
Your point is... what?
Air was obsoleted because people didn't think it warranted publication anymore when Air 2 was submitted, and Hard Relay Mario was published as a superior hack to Air 2. I don't see the original Air have much of a chance, unique gameplay feature or not.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
xnamkcor wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
xnamkcor does.
Are you purposefully lying?
I'm just basing it on what you said yourself.
xnamkcor wrote:
To put it in the bluntest terms, nobody even implied, except for the people who are being sensational, that every hack would be cataloged. Just the ones that met speed optimization requirements.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If hacks are forced to follow such rules, then all games should.
Why?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So, if I pick a game that has no existing run, and I just record my input and submit it, it will get published? I don't think Lufia I has a submission. I think I'll play that and submit it. So then I'll be published.
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Dyshonest wrote:
If hacks are forced to follow such rules, then all games should.
Not sure why you bold/underline/italic the "if". Yes, hacks are forced to follow such rules. And we won't force the same rules for all games because the majority in that poll disagreed with that, and we now have a tier system to accomodate for that.
Dyshonest wrote:
Though I don't think either should be subject to such things and I've expressed this.
I already explained several times (again) why that isn't possible, as did Nach. There is no quality control on hacks or unlicensed games.
Dyshonest wrote:
That doesn't mean they're not similar though. "HRM plays like Air" is not the same as "HRM is similar to Air".
We have many similar games.
Licensed games do not follow the same scrutiny for reasons stated several times over, including a poll showing the majority of people disagree with applying such scrutiny to licensed games. So this is entirely irrelevant.
Dyshonest wrote:
There is no limit such as "No more than 3 SMW hacks" or "No more than 1 Super Metroid hack".
Yet you make it sound like there is.
Do you even read what I wrote right there?
Dyshonest wrote:
xnamkcor does. (Well, as long as the runs are optimized, but that's still applicable to all hacks.)
[citation needed]
You and Nach weren't even reading his posts.
Citation provided in previous post.
Dyshonest wrote:
I'd say there easily are dozens of hacks you can make an entertaining run of. Let's suppose people actually decided to make such runs (you apparently keep dismissing that as an impossibility), then we have dozens of hacks of one game clogging up the publication listings.
You keep stating hypotheticals as fact. You won't know until it happens.
You keep stating potential as impossibility. Exactly as you say, you won't know until it happens.
Which do you prefer, playing it safe to avoid potential management nightmares, or opening the door because any possible problems are "hypotheticals"?
Dyshonest wrote:
It doesn't matter if we get 100 hack submissions in a day or in a year. In the end, their impact on the publication listing would still be the same.
Your point is... what?
Exactly.
Dyshonest wrote:
Air was obsoleted because people didn't think it warranted publication anymore when Air 2 was submitted, and Hard Relay Mario was published as a superior hack to Air 2. I don't see the original Air have much of a chance, unique gameplay feature or not.
We have E.T.
Let me just repeat again:
Licensed games do not follow the same scrutiny for reasons stated several times over, including a poll showing the majority of people disagree with applying such scrutiny to licensed games. So this is entirely irrelevant.xnamkcor wrote:
So, if I pick a game that has no existing run, and I just record my input and submit it, it will get published? I don't think Lufia I has a submission. I think I'll play that and submit it. So then I'll be published.
This has not a single thing to do with literally anything being argued here.
You mention every hack would be cataloged "that met speed optimization requirements."
Since it's possible to make an optimized speedrun of any single hack, that means that by your terms, any single hack can have an optimized speedrun publication on the site, right?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Not sure why you bold/underline/italic the "if". Yes, hacks are forced to follow such rules. And we won't force the same rules for all games because the majority in that poll disagreed with that, and we now have a tier system to accomodate for that.
Are hacks not games or am I missing something here?
I already explained several times (again) why that isn't possible, as did Nach. There is no quality control on hacks or unlicensed games.
Because games that DO have it end up so well...
Good hacks, like SDW or Rockman 4 Minus Infinity and others WERE tested, and yes, even the only "half-decent" ones like Air/2/HRM were extensively tested because people had to make sure they could be finished! Gaaasp!
Think of a better reason next time. maybe try something that's true?
You keep stating potential as impossibility. Exactly as you say, you won't know until it happens.
Which do you prefer, playing it safe to avoid potential management nightmares, or opening the door because any possible problems are "hypotheticals"?
Trying to avoid nightmares that will likely never happen at the expense of entertainment makes no sense. Deal with things when they're an issue. It's not like it would be a serious problem even if it did occur.
including a poll showing the majority of people disagree with applying such scrutiny to licensed games. So this is entirely irrelevant.
Perhaps you should read what YOU post for once?
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13395
Should game choice be abolished as a rejection reason?
Should game choice [...]
game choice [...]
This mentions... what, exactly, about ANYTHING you keep claiming it preaches? Nothing. Jack-squat. It mentions game choice and that's it.
Since it's possible to make an optimized speedrun of any single hack, that means that by your terms, any single hack can have an optimized speedrun publication on the site, right?
Could.
Mothrayas wrote:
There is no quality control on hacks or unlicensed games.
You should probably fix that.
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Dyshonest, can you defend your own words at least once?
feos wrote:
Dyshonest wrote:
If hacks are forced to follow such rules, then all games should.
Why?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Dyshonest wrote:
Not sure why you bold/underline/italic the "if". Yes, hacks are forced to follow such rules. And we won't force the same rules for all games because the majority in that poll disagreed with that, and we now have a tier system to accomodate for that.
Are hacks not games or am I missing something here?
Did you read the proposal and discussion in the thread Mothrayas pointed to, or just the first post and the poll itself, ignoring the proposal paper and the discussion?
Nobody said hacks aren't games. However hacks are much more likely to be garbage than a published game from a company looking to stay in business.
Dyshonest wrote:
I already explained several times (again) why that isn't possible, as did Nach. There is no quality control on hacks or unlicensed games.
Because games that DO have it end up so well...
Good hacks, like SDW or Rockman 4 Minus Infinity and others WERE tested, and yes, even the only "half-decent" ones like Air/2/HRM were extensively tested because people had to make sure they could be finished! Gaaasp!
Think of a better reason next time. maybe try something that's true?
I'm calling you out on using technique #9.
Thanks for taking "quality control" and turning into "ensuring completion is possible".
Dyshonest wrote:
You keep stating potential as impossibility. Exactly as you say, you won't know until it happens.
Which do you prefer, playing it safe to avoid potential management nightmares, or opening the door because any possible problems are "hypotheticals"?
Trying to avoid nightmares that will likely never happen at the expense of entertainment makes no sense. Deal with things when they're an issue. It's not like it would be a serious problem even if it did occur.
Thanks for your opinion. We'll continue doing what we have experience with, and experience has indicated will occur in the future, and how best to manage the site.
Dyshonest wrote:
including a poll showing the majority of people disagree with applying such scrutiny to licensed games. So this is entirely irrelevant.
Perhaps you should read what YOU post for once?
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13395
Should game choice be abolished as a rejection reason?
Should game choice [...]
game choice [...]
This mentions... what, exactly, about ANYTHING you keep claiming it preaches? Nothing. Jack-squat. It mentions game choice and that's it.
Have you read the proposal? Or read the ensuing discussion?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
xnamkcor wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
Since it's possible to make an optimized speedrun of any single hack, that means that by your terms, any single hack can have an optimized speedrun publication on the site, right?
Could.
I'm a layperson, tell me the difference.
xnamkcor wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
There is no quality control on hacks or unlicensed games.
You should probably fix that.
OH WOW. How is one supposed to control the quality of hacks and unlicensed games?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Because hacks are games?
The only reason any of you can make the sensational argument that all hack submissions will be published if we have different entries for each hack is that you have no quality control for hacks, like you do for normal games.
Instead of pretending like all hacks are going to have TASs, why don't you just fix the problem that you have no quality control for hack TAS submissions?
feos wrote:
I'm a layperson, tell me the difference.
I'm not correcting him, I'm replying.
feos wrote:
xnamkcor wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
There is no quality control on hacks or unlicensed games.
You should probably fix that.
OH WOW. How is one supposed to control the quality of hacks and unlicensed games?
I thought he was saying Hack TAS submissions don't have quality control.
So, if Hack TAS submissions do have requirements in order to be published, how do you expect every hack to get a publication?
Nach wrote:
Thanks for your opinion. We'll continue doing what we have experience with, and experience has indicated will occur in the future, and how best to manage the site.
Whatever experience that is, it isn't database management.
Nach wrote:
xnamkcor wrote:
I'm not crazy about what we do either, but the alternative means that we have no way to obsolete bad hacks that were published by poor judgment, and that hacks like these would never get published.
Obsoletion means the run has been surpassed by another run for the same game, not some hacky way for you to delete old runs of other games you no longer like.
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
xnamkcor wrote:
So, if Hack TAS submissions do have requirements in order to be published, how do you expect every hack to get a publication?
It's your system + some time:
xnamkcor wrote:
To put it in the bluntest terms, nobody even implied, except for the people who are being sensational, that every hack would be cataloged. Just the ones that met speed optimization requirements.
If you have enough people willing to make well-optimized runs of those hacks, you yourself want no limit for publishing their runs. And now you're saying that it's "our" expectation. It's yours.
xnamkcor wrote:
Obsoletion means the run has been surpassed by another run for the same game, not some hacky way for you to delete old runs of other games you no longer like.
Said who?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So, because you're afraid of what could happen, you've decided to employ absurd database protocols?
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Are you talking to me?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Did you read the proposal and discussion in the thread Mothrayas pointed to, or just the first post and the poll itself, ignoring the proposal paper and the discussion?
Nobody said hacks aren't games. However hacks are much more likely to be garbage than a published game from a company looking to stay in business.
I really don't care to read a topic that, apparently, diverges far, far off of what the poll was intended to do.
Again, you're using poor-quality hacks as a norm.
Thanks for taking "quality control" and turning into "ensuring completion is possible".
Quite obviously "quality control" for a Kaizo hack means it's actually completeable. The whole point is for it to be masochistically hard, not aesthetically pleasing.
and experience has indicated will occur in the future
Did you use auto-translate here or is this some weird auto-correct/missing words?
How is one supposed to control the quality of hacks and unlicensed games?
How do you do that for licensed games? Don't ask redundant/pointless questions.
That actually sounds like it would be a fun regular event.
We could make a hack of SMB1 where all the levels are reversed, then TAS it.
Edit: Backwards Day Edition Super Mario Bros(NES) Walkathon: For Cancer(GOTY Edition).
"The guy was fatally injured and wants to be covered by God's tears (rain) before he dies. God is too busy to bother because it wastes frames."
Frames 16:26
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Interesting, so (licensed/"AAA") games don't have QA testing? Damn.
Nothing happened with it because I don't see anything I've said going undefended. It speaks for itself or defends itself.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Dyshonest wrote:
Did you read the proposal and discussion in the thread Mothrayas pointed to, or just the first post and the poll itself, ignoring the proposal paper and the discussion?
Nobody said hacks aren't games. However hacks are much more likely to be garbage than a published game from a company looking to stay in business.
I really don't care to read a topic that, apparently, diverges far, far off of what the poll was intended to do.
The poll was intended to know how people feel about the proposal. However, as you like to do, invent your own points.
Dyshonest wrote:
Again, you're using poor-quality hacks as a norm.
Newsflash! They are the norm!
Dyshonest wrote:
Thanks for taking "quality control" and turning into "ensuring completion is possible".
Quite obviously "quality control" for a Kaizo hack means it's actually completeable. The whole point is for it to be masochistically hard, not aesthetically pleasing.
That is not what "quality control" means, and it does not change its meaning based on the game.
Quality control is a bureaucratic process which ensures certain criteria are met. Nintendo and Apple are well known examples of companies that refuses to allow publication of software to their platforms without a special review process to weed out bugs, ensure a certain level of usability, and more.
Dyshonest wrote:
and experience has indicated will occur in the future
Did you use auto-translate here or is this some weird auto-correct/missing words?
Nope.
Dyshonest wrote:
How is one supposed to control the quality of hacks and unlicensed games?
How do you do that for licensed games? Don't ask redundant/pointless questions.
Licensed games have a whole quality control committee, and the platform owner has their own process as well.
For hacks, there is generally no internal quality control committee, and any QC enforced by the platform owner is bypassed.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I don't understand what's so hard about this.
(1) TASvideos wants quality runs of quality games.
(2) There are three relevant kinds of games: (a) licensed games, (b) hacks of licensed games, and (c) unlicensed games.
(3) Licensed games are almost always of decent quality; even those games that are commercially panned tend to be of pretty good technical quality. The few that aren't (e.g. ET or Daikatana) tend to fall under "so bad it's good", in that these games are renowned for how bad they are, and viewers are interested in seeing how bad it really is.
(4) The overwhelming majority of hacks and of unlicensed games are total and utter crap. My apologies to any hackers and game designers in the audience, but most of them just are pretty bad; just check any site that lists a couple thousand of them. Now granted, there are numerous hacks (e.g. Super Demo World) or unlicensed games (e.g. Cave Story) that are excellent.
(5) Therefore, we accept runs of all licensed games; and we accept runs of hacks and unlicensed games if we consider them sufficiently well-made and notable. Very simple. "Extra Mario Bros" is well-made and notable, so it goes on the site. "Lololol I replaec mario with a cow and an etxra pipe in L3" is not well-made and not notable, so it does not go on the site. Of course, the run itself needs to be of good quality as well.
