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Posted: 8/12/2014 2:09 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
That's true too. Maybe collect it in between beak bombing the buttons.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/13/2014 4:55 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
I checked and it definitely wouldn't be worth it to get the Boggy jiggy in the air. Even if you recoil off a button or snowman toward that direction it would be too far out of the way and a waste of feathers. I just noticed today that in the current TAS in Clanker's Cavern, Sami makes the jump to the honeycomb grate without getting knocked down by the ratatat rap destroying the grate. I hope this is not a mupen only thing but it looks legit. He only manages to get 8:45 though and Stiv has gotten 8:38. This is likely because Stiv deathwarps and Sami had to wait for some cycles. With a bit better routing I'd imagine this level could get below 8:30 game time, and I'll see what I can come up with today. EDIT: I made the jump to the honeycomb in real time on console without breaking the grate. Still considering multiple possible routes for this level including entering Clanker without raising him first.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/17/2014 8:32 PM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
I might help look into this a bit later on. Feel free to contact me if you have questions. Thoroughly looking at some of the any% TAS routes I posted a page ago may give you some good ideas with 100%. No one who was working this game ever figured out how to reliably get Conga to hit that orange pad. Unsolved mystery. I would give the talon trot slide to Clanker's Cavern puzzle a 50/50 on being possible. You would need to leave at the perfect pixel/height, and maintain a perfectly straight line while the camera spins. Maybe some concept testing and/or math would help verify if it's possible. It's hard to hack your position reliably from my experiences. I never actually verified the pause buffering thing fully, it was somewhat of an afterthought. If you look into banjo's velocity, you'll see that it oscillates between two values every other frame. I think I may have seen weird effects from pausing allowing me to get two higher speed gameplay frames in a row. I have no idea if that's accurate, it may have just been an impression or speculation. Definitely mess around with it though.
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Posted: 8/19/2014 2:14 AM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
Thanks Kirk, I'll definitely check those things out. I found a jump in Clanker's that should save time in any% as well and speed up the first room. If you are looking at the entrance to the level, jump on top of the pipe first and grab the mumbo token, then grab the 4 notes on the right side. Backtrack to the second note on that side from the entrance and from there you can do a talon trot slide jump directly to the first note on the other side. Not sure what this will do to Gloop and the tooth cycle but I think the TAS should be okay with it and manage to get an even earlier cycle with this jump.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/19/2014 8:25 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
Maybe someone can clear this up since I wasn't around when the current TAS was being made. I saw this post here http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1200 by Sami a while back where he says the RBB game time is 9:14 but the submission time says 9:37. I am confused about this. I compared real time in the TAS video to real time for when Stiv got 9:31 and 9:37 seems accurate. Just wondering where 9:23 and then 9:14 came from. I checked out your notes Kirk for MM and considered deathwarping in 100% but it seems slower because you have to take 4 damage instead of 3. After a bit of testing, it seems as though it will be faster in BGS to collect the notes and mumbo tokens and pink jinjo in the hut area as Banjo and leave the flibbits, turtle, jinjo, and croctus jiggies for the croc to collect then die off the nearby dragonfly. This skips 3 extra jiggy jigs.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/20/2014 10:30 PM
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AnotherUser
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQkVxGePy5w Depending on the cycle in CC, this might be better (for 12a-18a in any% route) if it is possible to skip the climbing animation and get on top of the pipe directly (With the climbing animation, it seems to be about the same speed as using the shock jump). I found it's possible to poop eggs on conga if you are on the leaf, but you have to go back to the stump to trigger him to throw the next set of oranges, so it's probably not worth it. Would taking damage with bigbutt (to "boost you towards bridge") be a possible 4th damage in MM?
Posted: 8/20/2014 11:28 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
I stumbled upon that little jump as well, and its pretty easy too. Could make for a time save for any%. I think for 100% I'm going to have to accept the loss from getting orange jinjo last and getting the dance. It's too much of a detour with the grate jump to get orange jinjo before pink. I'll play around with possible routes a bit more. I want to retime fully the end of MM to determine more closely if deathwarping is worth it or not. Some things to consider with this: - You have to get the mumbo token by the pink jinjo at the beginning of the level if you deathwarp - Deathwarping into mumbo can activate him and you can skip a text box for BGS later. Mumbo will still talk to you but for only one text box. If you get all the mumbo tokens in MM he won't talk to you at all in BGS, but the mumbo token is a 4 second detour and I don't think it's worth it. EDIT: I finally determined that the bolt cycle is near perfect jumping from the top of the bolt platform to the pipe with the 4 notes. Here is the route I came up with that incorporates both that jump and the one Sami uses to the honeycomb grate: http://pastebin.com/9c0cex9Z
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/23/2014 6:35 AM
(Edited: 8/23/2014 6:29 PM)
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AnotherUser
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
Nice find with the cycle. A small optimization in CC: I found that you can collect the grate honeycomb without dropping down (it only took me a few tries). Do a roll and backflip and you can get back onto the top of the grate area. So then in the 100% route, you can jump back onto that pipe area in the back and talon trot dive directly above the snippets area as opposed to the near that grate area. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa0KY5rznAU (the video does it towards the wall, but it's even easier doing it left to right (or right to left), so it can be seamlessly included in the route). It would be interesting to see if the talon trot slide can jump back high enough to not even waste time with switching out of talon trot. Anyone know if it's possible to clip the final CC jiggy? Also, for any% (with the current RTA route), small optimization for Leaky and bottles in TTC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejt3VYJ7i_o If possible, would it be faster to get the MM grunty switch jiggy with talon trot? EDIT: In MMM, in front of the tumblar house, I believe it is possible to backflip onto the corner of the house that is connected to the wall, but it seems like a precise jump. you would use a feathery flap to get on (similar to the leaf jump in CCW lair when you barely make the jump). It is easier to get it with a roll jump similar to the spiral mountain jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7grjQKqv5s
Posted: 8/23/2014 6:09 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
That's a cool find for the honeycomb. It's probably a little faster to do that and quickdive next to snippets like you said. I significantly improved the Gobi's Valley route for the Sphinx stuff and the rings: http://pastebin.com/sBTFbWyp Doing this you can get all of the rings without flying, save 5 feathers, and reduce backtracking. It also looks really cool. Kirk said he would help me this weekend with setting up his movement script, so progress might actually be made soon! I don't think it is a significant issue that the physics in mupen are a bit messy, because as far as I know, it only affects the first jump, and escaping Clanker's mouth which would not be in the TAS. Stiv and I will probably just start working on it now. EDIT: holy crap anotheruser you're good at finding these things! I'll make sure to credit you for them all. As for the CC final jiggy underwater, i think Cronikeys has told me she tried to clip it and had no luck. I may try later because there's a clip in banjo tooie that gets the jiggy underwater in toxic waste from the opposite side, and the physics that make that possible may exist in banjo kazooie as well. Its probably very precise if possible. For the MM witch switch, I will try later tasing it because it is possible to hit conga with an egg from the platform just to the right of the switch. He has to be beating his chest though and is very precise. I'm going to try hit the switch at the same time the final egg hits him and see if it could maybe skip a cutscene.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/24/2014 2:07 AM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Was that MMM jump on NTSC console?
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Posted: 8/24/2014 2:47 AM
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AnotherUser
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
It was done on PJ64 1.6, NTSC-U. Are there emulation issues with it? I couldn't make this tree jump in spiral mountain, but I feel like it might be frame perfect. What do you guys think? Also a route if it's possible, though I'm not sure how much faster it is (yeah, my movements are not so good lol). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLe_gn3Z0r0 That's a really cool route for Gobi's, Hyper. Gobi's looks like it'll be pretty exciting.
Posted: 8/24/2014 5:15 AM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
I haven't been able to make the MMM jump yet on console but I'll keep trying. It does look similar to leaf jump and I have gotten what looks like close to making the jump but not quite yet.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/24/2014 6:37 AM
(Edited: 8/24/2014 2:58 PM)
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AnotherUser
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
yeah, it's a pretty difficult jump, I probably get it about 1 every 50 jumps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRUpmdDojDg CCW winter: Beak bombing the 4 notes on the house. I think you're bound to hit the tree (but you'll lose a health either method). My guess is that this might be a little faster to get only the witch switch on the first fly, and then get the notes and the jiggy at the top the second fly. This might require a few more red feathers though. Maybe to preserve feathers, doing it in the current 100% order. I think the best way is, since after you beak bomb, you land near the branches next to the house, beak bomb crash land into it so you land onto the witch switch, then cancel the damage animation by feathery flap as you are falling off the witch switch. (so we lose an additional health in this sequence.) Video demonstration of route (general idea): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqQfq54KMB8 MMM: If needed, health refill by beak buster-ing the witch switch at high enough height in flight with one health. (or use zombie flutter that cronikeys found)
Posted: 8/24/2014 1:09 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
That's a neat strat in winter. I'll look at that route again when I get back from work today. I think we should be okay for health in MMM at that point. We won't have beak bomb so zombie fluttering isn't an option but the damage witch switch is if we can get high enough. I can't think right now if you can get high enough to take fall damage but probably. We just need 5 health for FP to deathwarp in Wozza's. EDIT: The MMM jump is possible on console. Good find!
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/26/2014 3:36 PM
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AnotherUser
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
I watched the tas and the discrepancy with the RBB time is that in furnace fun, it does boss boom box for a mini game tile. I used the levitating cheat to get inside tumblar from below, and you can get stuck inside, but unfortunately the jiggy is not activated (just a texture), so no point in trying to find a clip with that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myn0sblfMLA Almost getting to the top of MM lair jiggy with talon trot. I'm thinking with TAS, either getting the right joystick direction or being able to ground pound immediately after the rat a tat rap would get to the top. I am tapping B in the second half of the second jump.
Posted: 8/27/2014 1:08 AM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
That's interesting about RBB. If he got 9:14 for his actual level time, I bet 8:4x is possible with this new route I created that involves a clip Cronikeys found to get into Boom Box early: http://pastebin.com/wf2MhmDJ This video http://youtu.be/Ef0mHJrr_ig?t=10m19s is likely is fastest method to get the jiggy on top of mumbo's mountain without talon trot. If it's possible to get it in talon trot it MAY be a bit faster though. A few notes and updates: Resetting after the MMM water switch cutscene is a bit faster. At some point before MMM in the spider web room you would activate the cauldron and after the hard reset, head to get the Clanker's Cavern witch switch jiggy, then activate the cauldron down the stairs, grab the mumbo token and use the cauldron to get back to FP. I replaced the BGS tokens under the huts with this one and the one in Mumbo's Mountain behind the stonehenge area. If you deathwarp into Mumbo at the end of MM, it activates him and you can skip his text. Later on, you don't get stopped by him in BGS. In order to completely skip it though you need to have 5 tokens. If not you will skip the "Hi, I'm Mumbo" and "You don't have enough tokens" text. Later on he will still stop you and give you the "You now have enough tokens text." So if you have 5 tokens in his hut in MM you completely skip his text. It's about 3 seconds lost to get the token and 3 seconds lost if Mumbo stops you, so they cancel each other out. The tokens under the huts require a damage taken which means you need to get more health from dead flibbits, and clipping through the floor to get the tokens is actually sort of slow, because you need to clip back out too. It's likely best to get the notes as banjo in that area as well as the pink jinjo and leave the orange jinjo for last. Doing this means you can collect the flibbits, tanktup, orange jinjo, and croctus jiggies later for the croc to pick up and then deathwarp off a dragonfly. You can also shoot the croctus from far away over by Tanktup and save some time there. Tumblar house jump should seamlessly be added into the route which is very nice, and should save 4 seconds or so. I tried messing around with your winter strat with beakbombing the notes on the house to make the route different but I haven't been able to come up with anything obviously faster. I have an idea in mind but I will need to time it first.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/27/2014 11:11 PM
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JSmith
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
Hyperresonance wrote:
This video http://youtu.be/Ef0mHJrr_ig?t=10m19s is likely is fastest method to get the jiggy on top of mumbo's mountain without talon trot. If it's possible to get it in talon trot it MAY be a bit faster though.
I think it would be faster to: *Backflip to the very edge of the slope over the sign *Jump backwards off the edge *Immediately flap back on, so that you land before the upwards part of the flap. This resets the timer until you start to slide when you enter the airspace over the slope. *Roll, jump, flap up the slope to the boundary of the steepest section. *If you cannot reach the steep section before starting to slide, delay the slide with a roll. *Jump and ground pound to cross the steep section. Clip the Jiggy hitbox before you land from the ground pound recoil. It's important to start moving forwards as soon as possible after you reset the slide timer, even at the expense of gaining height. Also, jumping and/or rolling up the side of the entrance may be faster than backflipping under TAS conditions due to less landing lag. This should be tested.
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Posted: 8/29/2014 11:39 PM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
Stiv said you can actually make the final jump without ground pounding with his strat, so that's likely fastest. I improved the MMM route for the TAS in the outer area: http://imgur.com/AWSG6Od Some of the lines aren't exactly accurate but it should make sense. Red -> Blue is a damage boost off a ghost. I wanted to do more but health is very tight for this level. The blue line on the roof uses this strat to get up to the top floor of the mansion without the shock spring pad (saves 2 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBiZfm_USo&feature=youtu.be&t=3m50s The light green line includes the new jump found to get on tumblar's house. The yellow dots in the church area indicates you can get those two pots from the roof.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 8/30/2014 6:32 PM
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JSmith
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
Hyperresonance wrote:
Stiv said you can actually make the final jump without ground pounding with his strat, so that's likely fastest.
Nice find. I think every optimized non-talon-trot strat should start the jump from the same spot anyway, so we should be able to take the best of both strats.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:25 AM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
I know the physics are all weird on mupen but I cannot figure out this first backflip. Maybe someone can shed light on it here. Here is my video up to that point: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f34prl3i817og0p/BK%20100%25%20%28USA%29.m64?dl=0 This must be played on Mupen64-rerecording-v2.exe (mupen reset recording)
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 9/2/2014 7:05 AM
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JSmith
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
The first Spiral Mountain backflip is extremely difficult on Mupen for some reason. It took thousands of re-records to get the one in the current TAS.
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Posted: 9/17/2014 10:35 PM
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AnotherUser
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
I was doing a run and for the BGS tiptup turtles, I backflipped the honeycomb and beak bustered near the edge of the stand and was able to get the jiggy without landing on the ground (probably some strange hit detection). I don't have time to test it out more, but it seems like it would be a few frames faster.
Posted: 9/18/2014 6:24 AM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
That's a cool find anotheruser, I think it would save time yeah. I decided to move on from trying the backflip in spiral. I tried replicating the current TAS's inputs but it wasn't matching up with my position and camera angle because my movement is different. I will start doing TASes of individual levels and save the inputs to add in later if bizhawk is ever fixed. I wanted to start with Gobi's because I think it looks the coolest, and I found a couple of nice strats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzLN2Q6Ba_4&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtKKj5oliQA&list=UU2rAbfsMi9-0pbBAM5Q0-2Q Both of these are doable real time as well. It is also possible to jump directly onto the first carpet in Jinxy while in talon trot, saving a bit of time.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
Posted: 9/18/2014 6:27 AM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4042
I will start doing TASes of individual levels and save the inputs to add in later if bizhawk is ever fixed.
Please check that you can actually do this (that it will not desync due to different RNG/etc).
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 9/18/2014 6:46 AM
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Hyperresonance
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
RNG in this game is largely dependent on what frame you enter a loading zone, so if I needed to change something I could alter the section before the loading zone slightly and check the RNG. I may not be able to directly hex edit in everything but I can do certain portions the same.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
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