I agree that if it's for publication, it should close to as perfect as possible, but that's a long ways off still.
First comes the suboptimal practice runs. Encourage! Encourage! Help build!
So clearly the ideal solution for them is to have the people who speedrun the game also tas the game, that way they also get a result they're happy with, but that will never happen.
I'm perfectly fine with Angerfist/Mothrayas/Solarplex running it, because something will be completed eventually and it'll definitely be a good looking result.
So clearly the ideal solution for them is to have the people who speedrun the game also tas the game, that way they also get a result they're happy with, but that will never happen.
It could. I speedrun Metroid Fusion and TAS it as well. However, I think most people who know Prime pretty well aren't TASing it for a variety of reasons, including lack of time, complexity of TASing 3D games, inaccurate emulation, or simple disinterest.
That being said, I encourage anyone to attempt a TAS or at least fool around with the game on an emulator to gain a better understanding. I'm honestly not expecting a well optimized TAS of Prime for at least 5 years, if not 10.
I feel like the general attitude towards anyone wanting to TAS this game is "you don't understand what you're getting yourself into". I for one, am probably the most qualified person here to be saying that, having worked with TASing this game first hand.
It's disheartening to see people who clearly are new to the game, trying to take on such a ridiculous task. I'd have little faith in Miles being able to optimize a TAS of this game, even if he is easily the most knowledgeable person about Metroid Prime, period. Why on earth would I have expectations for a group of people who have yet to show me they have any idea what they're doing? I can't expect much more from them than maybe moving around the same pace as my 2012 WIP, which wasn't even scratching the surface of what a true TAS is capable of.
Metroid Prime is a complicated game, it is far and above the most complicated game I've ever worked with, and being an experienced SM64, SA2B, SADX, SCWii and SMS TASer, that is saying something. I'm being true and honest, along with the other members of the community. Right now, they're in over their heads.
You know, being a mean guy, won't help. Don't forget I helped you with Mario Sunshine lua script when you was TASing it. When I ask you help for Prime, like if you could give your DTM for comparing, you don't want because it's "unoptimize", WHY NOT GIVING IT --' ? Also, you awnser me always rudely, you never used any smileys, always RUDE RUDE RUDE messages. And you were a beginner some years ago. And EVERY TAS is optimisable. and please not taking the big head just because you're TASing SA2:B.
Thanks :)
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Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
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I'm sorry that we're kind of getting off topic here, but I wanted to go all out on this one. (we've already been way off topic of the past 4 pages anyway).
Got4n, you have yet to give me any reason to have faith in your ability to TAS. You've actually given me the opposite, by working on joke TASes of some of my favourite games and rushing into things head-first without taking any time to soak up knowledge about the games. When I was a beginner, I spent countless hours figuring games out on my own. Thousands of hours spent playing SA2 and Metroid Prime, both TAS and non-TAS (those have been my favourite games since I was 6 years old).
In early 2012, Sonicpacker and Mapler started working on an All Story TAS of SA2, they wouldn't let me join their team until I proved I wasn't useless to them. So that's just what I did. I started doing my own IL TASes to show them I was capable. Those TASes still stand as WR to this day, even with people trying to improve on them. I proved to them that I knew what I was doing, that I could aid in strat hunting and general optimization, that I wasn't just dead weight wanting his name attached to the TAS. When you, or any of the other authors of the Metroid Prime TAS, proves to me that you're worth my time, maybe I'll help you out more, maybe it won't feel like I'm wasting my time and resources. Asking me HOW TO SCAN DASH is not a very good way of proving to me that you know what you're doing. That's the most basic of movement in Metroid Prime and you don't even understand how it's done? There's a website dedicated to Metroid Prime, explaining so many things in more detail than I have the time for. Go and research the game. Make a WIP that improves my TAS. Show me you're not a waste of my time.
In 2012, Sonicpacker and I hated each other, I thought he was a stuck up asshole for not helping me, and he thought I was some no-name who didn't understand what he was getting himself into. We're practically best friends now.
Direct
[13/10/2014 12:17:58 PM] Got4n: on your metroid prime video
[13/10/2014 12:18:03 PM] Got4n: how you get that high speed?
[13/10/2014 12:18:05 PM] Got4n: on WIP1
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
METROID PRIME ANY%
I'm sorry that we're kind of getting off topic here, but I wanted to go all out on this one. (we've already been way off topic of the past 4 pages anyway).
Got4n, you have yet to give me any reason to have faith in your ability to TAS. You've actually given me the opposite, by working on joke TASes of some of my favourite games and rushing into things head-first without taking any time to soak up knowledge about the games. When I was a beginner, I spent countless hours figuring games out on my own. Thousands of hours spent playing SA2 and Metroid Prime, both TAS and non-TAS (those have been my favourite games since I was 6 years old).
In early 2012, Sonicpacker and Mapler started working on an All Story TAS of SA2, they wouldn't let me join their team until I proved I wasn't useless to them. So that's just what I did. I started doing my own IL TASes to show them I was capable. Those TASes still stand as WR to this day, even with people trying to improve on them. I proved to them that I knew what I was doing, that I could aid in strat hunting and general optimization, that I wasn't just dead weight wanting his name attached to the TAS. When you, or any of the other authors of the Metroid Prime TAS, proves to me that you're worth my time, maybe I'll help you out more, maybe it won't feel like I'm wasting my time and resources. Asking me HOW TO SCAN DASH is not a very good way of proving to me that you know what you're doing. That's the most basic of movement in Metroid Prime and you don't even understand how it's done? There's a website dedicated to Metroid Prime, explaining so many things in more detail than I have the time for. Go and research the game. Make a WIP that improves my TAS. Show me you're not a waste of my time.
In 2012, Sonicpacker and I hated each other, I thought he was a stuck up asshole for not helping me, and he thought I was some no-name who didn't understand what he was getting himself into. We're practically best friends now.
Direct
[13/10/2014 12:17:58 PM] Got4n: on your metroid prime video
[13/10/2014 12:18:03 PM] Got4n: how you get that high speed?
[13/10/2014 12:18:05 PM] Got4n: on WIP1
Why you told me it's not a trick, it's one. And before, you insult TASers by being a "waste of time", I remind you that I helped you for SMS lua script, so yes, I helped you. I just looked back at my skype history with you, I didn't found ONE "thanks" you said on all our conversations, you're even not polite. the least thing is to thanks people when they help you you stupid. :)
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Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
Paused:
N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)
GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)
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Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California
itsPersonnal wrote:
In 2012, Sonicpacker and I hated each other, I thought he was a stuck up asshole for not helping me, and he thought I was some no-name who didn't understand what he was getting himself into. We're practically best friends now.
Very much truth in this. Same goes for myself and SilentSlayers when I was new to SM64. Then I got on the 0 star team after building my skill-level up for months on end, and understood his reasoning for thinking I was some noob-troll. All people are truly trying to say is this: PRACTICE! Start a run, but realize you'll be restarting 15 or 25+ times. Get used to it if you're into Dolphin, 3D games tend to be like that. I personally don't like/know MP games, but they look brutal to learn, let alone optimize at a high level.
Everything must start from something. You can't expect a fully-optimized TAS of a complicated game out of the bat. So what if it will be inferior? Great runs are made iteratively. If a semi-optimized run was done first, the TASers would learn a lot of things, such as how the game works, how the emulator works, quirks, etc. That would translate into experience that the TASers could then use to improve the TAS in subsequent runs and even help them to better understand how the techniques are done and how to properly implement them in the TAS.
Then comes the stage of improving the product even more. A super-optimized speedrun of Metroid Prime did not come in one night. It has come this far after years of iterating improving of old runs. Give the TASers a chance. If they post a WIP, be supportive and help point out things that could be done better. Don't discourage them from not trying at all because then we will NEVER see a TAS.
All speedruns begin with a practice run. Is a practice TAS really so bad?
You're missing the point. Having a fully optimized metroid prime TAS isn't going to happen, and will basically be impossible. People don't really want that (though that'd be nice but it's unrealistic). The point is the team ignored the majority of advice from actual knowledgeable people of the game and already starting to work on the TAS, instead of learning more about the game (as they claimed they would). If you don't know how a scan dash works, you really should not be starting the actual full-game TAS <_< People have already suggested trying out individual room TAS's and such, to familiarize themselves with the game.
Itspersonnal I understand your frustration with got4n and I agree that it isn't very encouraging, but at the same time it doesn't hurt to answer questions and give help whenever appropriate. Everyone has to start somewhere, and an explanation from someone experienced (especially someone who has done a few TAS's of this game) would be best, especially since some things on the actual m2k2 website are... outdated
For the TAS team, if you have questions, it's best to ask on the m2k2 threads (as was mentioned several times) instead of asking an individual or two privately. Most knowledgeable people go on the m2k2 threads and you'll get much better answers from multiple people if you directly ask there (and the answer will be available to everyone, documented, so there would be no need to ask again). Many people know different things about the game and it's best to ask publicly and hear from several people.
I still very very strongly encourage you to just try doing a 21% or a simpler save-state speedrun, or TAS individual rooms, just to get a grasp on the overall game. I understand you are all really excited about it and want to start immediately, but honestly a TAS of a complex game done by a group of people who don't even know what a basic scan dash is (or 21% and so on) does not give people much hope. Please please please be patient and spend time learning about the game instead of trying to dive in to the frigate immediately, you are just not going to get anything done by starting immediately and it will be incredibly sloppy (even with realistic imperfect standards).
EDIT: This might not be clear... but the info on the website metroid2002.com has a lot of outdated information (though still good for some basics, so you should watch all of it, keeping in mind some of it is outdated), whereas the threads are fine and not really outdated. People DO check that regularly, myself included. To reiterate, the MAIN INFO PAGES on m2k2 are outdated but the threads are not.
Metroid2002 may be dated, but it's such an easy way to get a basic understanding of everything learned in the earlier stages of breaking the game. Secret world knowledge is very important for TASing this game, and there's an list containing nearly every known room, including multiple ways to enter them. Along side that are some of the earlier known "early items" and various other very useful things.
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
METROID PRIME ANY%
Honestly, the main thing wrong with metroid2002 is lack of mention of R-Jumps and the mention of L-Lock Spring Jumps (something that has been proven to not actually exist). Sure, it might not have all the up-to-date most fast ways to go through rooms or a route, but its certainly a good start. And the fastest way to go through rooms for console wouldn't be the same with tas anyways.
Even if itspersonnal was to give you his dtm, you would still be diving into the deep end. Even if its unoptimized, it'd probably be hard to understand what he is doing and why.
What is being asked is to learn the basics. Read metroid2002. Learn about the game. Make that effort please. And then demonstrate that you know what you're doing with that knowledge. Don't go asking for "How did you go fast in this video" if you haven't read metroid2002. And thinking about things like "Maybe we should skip space jump!" should wait until you understand movement. T3 made an excellent post on how to go about learning the game, and it should apply to TAS as well: https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/the_i_need_help_topic302_351.html#the_i_need_help_topic302_351
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Please stop intentionally and directly degrading the efforts of others and claiming some kind of moral high ground about how TASes "should" or "must" be undertaken.
The worst possible result for you here is a published TAS you don't like, which, presumably, should be easily obsoletable. This result is pretty unlikely - the site voters & judges are not known for being lenient towards sloppy work these days, and the TASers in question are unlikely to attempt to submit anything known to be significantly sloppy in the first place. But even if this dire scenario came to pass, the total harm done would be far less than you have already done in this thread.
What matters in this community is not the quality of one individual movie at one point in time. What matters is the spirit of collaboration and camaraderie that keeps talented TASers motivated to pour hours of loving effort into their work. By demeaning and condescending to those TASers, you not only directly lessen their satisfaction with the community and the project, but also that of everyone else reading the thread.
This kind of thing is a significant detractor to potential new talent considering making the considerable sacrifice that is becoming a TASer. Why would you want to put in that kind of effort and time if it's going to be constantly torn apart by people who proclaim themselves better than you?
Please just stop.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
There is nothing wrong with asking the TASers to learn the basics and try to be more involved with the m2k2 community before starting the game itself. Which they clearly aren't.
I don't see how this isn't clear.
I admit a lot of things said in this thread were harsher than they should've been, but the fact that literally everyone from the m2k2 community is giving the team the same general ADVICE should be saying something. (and nobody is expecting a perfect TAS, as you think people are)
You are mistaking what is being asked. There is quite a bit of documentation on the game already (metroid2002.com). What we are asking is for them to read that documentation and mess around with what was documented before trying to jump into a full TAS. They've ignored that documentation and persist on asking questions that they would have known some of the answers to if they read said documentation. Thus they are wasting the time of the people who they are asking questions to. "How did you go fast in WIP 1?" can be seen by reading metroid2002.com. What isn't covered by metroid2002.com was already mentioned earlier in the thread, and recently too.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Dude, their TAS, their workflow, their way. It's as simple as that. They either do or don't want to join the 2k2 forums and that's their decision. They either do or don't want to interact with several people in a public way. They either do or do not wish to spend a long time researching the game. But you (as a collective) are certainly not making a good case for your forum.
Like most geeks, you're probably used to being correct. And you know you're correct, and you don't know when to back off. You're doubling down on your bad attitudes because you know you're right. And maybe you are. I don't know, and I don't care.
But that doesn't make you any less of a prick for broaching it in this manner. It's not going to win friends and influence people. And it's certainly not going to make volunteers want to hang with you. You can choose to lose an argument because you respect the other person more than you care about winning. The fact that you've chosen not to means that you care about a perfect TAS more than the TASers making it. That's fine, you're free to care about that. But realize that that kind of makes you look like an a-hole to the TASers making it.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Dude, their TAS, their workflow, their way. It's as simple as that. They either do or don't want to join the 2k2 forums and that's their decision. They either do or don't want to interact with several people in a public way. They either do or do not wish to spend a long time researching the game. But you (as a collective) are certainly not making a good case for your forum.
Its not just forums. m2k2.taigaforum.com is the forums site. The main metroid2002 site is not forums. It's a series of pages with videos and explanations on tricks for the game. The main site documents stuff that they are asking questions about. The problem is that they don't care to read the documentation. Some of what wasn't covered on metroid2002 was covered in this thread already. Please actually read posts before making such judgments.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
There is nothing wrong with asking the TASers to learn the basics and try to be more involved with the m2k2 community before starting the game itself.
The thing wrong with it is that you are making people feel antagonized and demeaned. This is not acceptable no matter what.
The other thing wrong with it is that there is literally no bad outcome for you if they do things the way they want.
The other other thing wrong with it is that creating a rift between communities based on a nonsense preconception of how a TAS should be approached can only result in a worse final product. Constructive collaboration is a good thing! And it never involves insisting that other people do things your way!
EDIT: No one has refused to look at those resources, as far as I'm aware. I would be shocked if they don't. You're shifting the goalposts rather drastically here. There's a big difference between "six months of research could never possibly be enough" and "we just want you to look at our website!"
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Current:
Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
Paused:
N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)
GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)
TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
There is nothing wrong with asking the TASers to learn the basics and try to be more involved with the m2k2 community before starting the game itself.
The other other thing wrong with it is that creating a rift between communities based on a nonsense preconception of how a TAS should be approached can only result in a worse final product. Constructive collaboration is a good thing! And it never involves insisting that other people do things your way!
EDIT: No one has refused to look at those resources, as far as I'm aware. I would be shocked if they don't. You're shifting the goalposts rather drastically here. There's a big difference between "six months of research could never possibly be enough" and "we just want you to look at our website!"
Fair enough, there's just been a lot of posts and things that have happened that have convinced me that they haven't bothered taking any advice at all. If you aren't going to listen, why should I bother trying to help with anything else, when currently I'm (and many others, who are more qualified than me) way more knowledgeable than them? I hope I'm proven wrong though. Maybe they did already do their research.
I'm not saying anything like "THESE GUYS SHOULD NOT TOUCH THIS GAME AT ALL", but there's a steep learning curve for this game that should not be taken lightly. I am willing to help out but if you aren't aware of some of the basics, over half of my responses will be "I know this, but you can read/ask more about it on m2k2", which taking the advice beforehand will save both me and you and other knowledgeable runners all a ton of time in the long run.
EDIT: Why is BBCode defaulted to disabled :c
Thanks for seemingly calming down a bit!
It is indeed very reasonable to want to not be bombarded with questions that have already been answered in an organized fashion! If that was your fear all along, I think I understand where you were coming from a lot better, though I dare say you didn't exactly make yourself clear at first ;)
I really don't think that will end up being the case, and I especially think that if you do start to feel like you are being bothered a lot in an avoidable way, and you politely point it out, the people in question are mature and few enough that they will stop.
I think we can all move forward in a friendly way in which everyone's contributions are valued!
Also, BBCode is enabled by default for me in the Quick Reply box, at least.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
It is indeed very reasonable to want to not be bombarded with questions that have already been answered in an organized fashion! If that was your fear all along, I think I understand where you were coming from a lot better, though I dare say you didn't exactly make yourself clear at first ;)
To make it clear, I haven't really been bombarded with questions, though I know itspersonnal has been contacted by the TASers for help.
One of the questions asked of itspersonnal was placed by him in the thread.
itsPersonnal wrote:
Direct
[13/10/2014 12:17:58 PM] Got4n: on your metroid prime video
[13/10/2014 12:18:03 PM] Got4n: how you get that high speed?
[13/10/2014 12:18:05 PM] Got4n: on WIP1
If they had read the documentation site that is metroid2002 (like we asked), or kept in mind the techniques brought up to them earlier in the thread, they would have probably came up with the answer without having to contact itspersonnal. As it is, they're wasting people's time.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
TheMG2 wrote:
If they had read the documentation site that is metroid2002 (like we asked), or kept in mind the techniques brought up to them earlier in the thread, they would have probably came up with the answer without having to contact itspersonnal. As it is, they're wasting people's time.
Or, you know, he could have answered the question nicely or at the very least provided a link to the information instead of being a complete douchebag and publicly belittling got4n and the rest of the team.
Let me just say this: If you're not going to give them any information yourselves, then shut the hell up and let them do whatever they want. You don't deserve any creative control over their workflow or process if you're not going to be actively helpful.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
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