EgxHB
Very entertainment run. My favorite boss battles are Wolfduck for close dancing with him and Megavolt for amazing falling)
Btw, why you not used arrow gas? It's just pacifist run, not "The lone Ranger with gun" run. Gas can add some interesting acrobatic tricks.
I don't think extra weapons are going to make it any more different from the existing run, and being maximum different is the exact reason we publish additional branches. Also, when equipped with extra weapons, you'd need to kill bosses with it too, which kills the uniqueness completely.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I don't think extra weapons are going to make it any more different from the existing run, and being maximum different is the exact reason we publish additional branches.
You like to see taking some massive damage and not all funny boss fights, but different in name/branches?
feos wrote:
Also, when equipped with extra weapons, you'd need to kill bosses with it too, which kills the uniqueness completely.
Good. Why not to use extra weapon versus bosses, but only as platform?
You like to see taking some massive damage and not all funny boss fights, but different in name/branches?
I like how fresh and new this run's boss fights were. With some real planning, health management might also look very cool.
XYZ wrote:
Good. Why not to use extra weapon versus bosses, but only as platform?
Sounds too arbitrary as a condition.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/15/2013
Posts: 331
Location: In the attic
scrimpeh wrote:
However, could you maybe have avoided killing one dude by getting to the area with more health? Just curious.
Not possible, I'm afraid. There are exactly four enemies where you have to take damage in order to get past them (two cannon pigs, one dart duck, and one lance guy) and there are no health packs lying around. Also, not getting a health pack from the lance guy would have led to more problems later in the level.
Very nice going saving this many frames. I'll need to rewatch the first run to see the differences though. Still hoping you'll be able to find a way to go through the final level pacifist.
Do keep it up.
Still hoping you'll be able to find a way to go through the final level pacifist.
If use arrows weapon to be able climb walls this level easily can be completed pacifist.
EgxHB wrote:
This is a little test I made for a Pacifist run. Like with other runs of this type, the objective is to complete the game while defeating as few enemies as possible - in this run, only one regular enemy is killed.
Even one regular enemy is killed = not really Pacifist run.
So EgxHB, if your main goal is Pacifist run - i highly recommend to use arrows weapon and avoid killing this innocent guy or change your branch to "No extra weapons".
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Joined: 4/15/2013
Posts: 331
Location: In the attic
Archanfel wrote:
So EgxHB, if your main goal is Pacifist run - i highly recommend to use arrows weapon and avoid killing this innocent guy or change your branch to "No extra weapons".
Fact is, I had already figured out that it was possible to use an arrow to climb over a chimney and skip over some of the enemies (who I previously had to take hits from because there are low ceilings above them).
So, I'm now faced with a dilemma - should I allow arrows in Steelbeak, or not use them, and still kill the lance guy?
Let me outline the circumstances:
a) Allowing arrows only in Steelbeak would be arbitrary. Allowing them only to get over the chimney, but nowhere else, would be even more arbitrary. Archanfel, if what your're saying is the latter, then I don't really agree with you there. The whole reason why I disallowed arrows in the first place was to make this run more different from the any% TAS.
b) If I kill the lance guy in the corridor, you're right, that's un-pacifistic. But, in the test run, you can see that I manipulate the lance guy to drop a health pack, which allows me to take more damage-boosts later in the level (two balloon ducks, and one cyborg duck). The first balloon duck is avoidable (i.e. the damage is just to save time) but the second balloon duck and the cyborg have low ceilings above them, which means I must get hit by them. Of course, you could always die at the checkpoint to get your health back, which means you can get hit three times before the checkpoint, then die so that you can get past the cyborgs.
For now, I'm going to finish off stages 4-6. I have to idea what to do about the final stage, I'll let you guys persuade me either way.
So, I'm now faced with a dilemma - should I allow arrows
I not see dilemma. The only way to make run really Pacifist is to use arrows - arrows should be used everywhere else.
EgxHB wrote:
The first balloon duck is avoidable (i.e. the damage is just to save time) but the second balloon duck
...
Of course, you could always die at the checkpoint to get your health back
In last level all ballon ducks are avoidable. So you not need to die at checkpoint.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
I support the initial approach totally. We always allow to kill some enemy that simply can't be bypassed pacifist, the concept doesn't die. But yes, the very meaning of all additional branches is to present new content, be it something a viewer can obviously see, or something only a TASer knows.
In Ninja Gaiden, we don't use the sword outside boss rooms, meaning it will be a default weapon run all the way through. And it does introduce a lot of new starts, making a run way harder to optimize than a normal one, and it's also obvious to the viewer. This is what we want from additional branch - as much difference as sane conditions can grant.
This case is mostly similar. Sub-weapon is what makes the current run be what it is - its weapon management is at some absurdly high level. Now what, copy all the arrow strats just to save a single enemy? Please.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I very like his initial concept too. But it is un-pacifistic.
feos wrote:
Now what, copy all the arrow strats just to save a single enemy? Please.
Life is cruel thing. Of course you still can accept this run even if he will make cold-blooded murder of single innocent guy, but already not in Pacifist category.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Used for movies that explicitly avoid killing enemies (or only kill as few as possible) when it is unnecessary for game completion, even at the expense of completion time.
It is very well still a pacifist category.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
(or only kill as few as possible) when it is unnecessary for game completion.
It is very well still a pacifist category.
No it is not well. If i understanding rules correctly as few as possible means that 0 kills must be preferable over 1 kill.
0 kills is a fewer than 1 kill.
And to allow 1 unnecessary cold-blooded murder for pacifist category - is the same like in 100% competition to allow collecting only 99% of items.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
Killing an enemy in a pacifist run should either be because it's absolutely necessary to continue (i.e, bosses) or because it'll help you avoid killing more enemies later (i.e, manipulating a health drop to damage boost through more enemies). If arrows help you avoid the enemy, then don't ban arrows. It's far more arbitrary to ban the usage of an item than it would be to use that item only in certain locations, especially since it seems like the item actually helps you accomplish your goal. To play off Archanfel's last post, this is like making a "100%" Super Metroid run where you miss items because you banned wall-jumping and shinesparks.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
I'll vote not to a Pacifist run which uses arrows.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The way I see it, there are two possibilities.
1) Scrap pacifism and just go with "No Depletable Armaments" - creating a wholly new branch.
2) just go with "Pacifist" and adjust previous stage routes to allow the Arrow.
Joined: 4/15/2013
Posts: 331
Location: In the attic
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20105242395548292
Every level except Steelbeak is now done. I'm thinking of making a proof-of-concept run of SB. Problem is, I don't know if I should just go with what feos says, or just blank out and leave this run at that stage.
Good WIP.
In this version I like Moliarty battle for solving this in one round and dislike Megavolt for disappear of falling.
What about this route? I don't think it is glitch.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20111382951453684
I made dirty WIP, but think it's clear. Using arrows. Jumping over enemies. Health management. And something new and can save health for this lance guy.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20105242395548292
Every level except Steelbeak is now done. I'm thinking of making a proof-of-concept run of SB. Problem is, I don't know if I should just go with what feos says, or just blank out and leave this run at that stage.
I'd say, made a solid submittable run without arrows, then (as Chamale did) send a run with arrows as a userfile, and see whichever is preferred and accepted.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Considering this run will be judged by entertainment anyway (as pacifist is not a vaultable goal choice), you could always change the branch to "no arrows, pacifist". Killing the enemy would not be pacifist, as it is avoidable through the use of arrows, but adding the "no arrows" goal would mean the run at least sticks to it goals. After that, it's up to the audience to judge if the goal makes for an entertaining enough run (as opposed to just "pacifist" or "no arrows").
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/15/2013
Posts: 331
Location: In the attic
Scepheo wrote:
Considering this run will be judged by entertainment anyway (as pacifist is not a vaultable goal choice), you could always change the branch to "no arrows, pacifist". Killing the enemy would not be pacifist, as it is avoidable through the use of arrows, but adding the "no arrows" goal would mean the run at least sticks to it goals. After that, it's up to the audience to judge if the goal makes for an entertaining enough run (as opposed to just "pacifist" or "no arrows").
That's what I'm going to do. The branch name will be 'Pacifist, no special weapons' or something of a similar wording.
Steelbeak '0 kills with 1 arrow'
The userfile linked above is just a proof of concept to clear up what you can do if you use a single arrow. I just have to redo Steelbeak in the same style as the old test run, and then it should be finished.
Side note:
XYZ wrote:
Good WIP.
In this version I like Moliarty battle for solving this in one round and dislike Megavolt for disappear of falling.
What about this route? I don't think it is glitch.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20111382951453684
a) The death glitch in the Megavolt fight (if that's what you're talking about) was actually slower - I only left it in the test run because it looked hilarious (speed-entertainment trade-off).
b) What!? You can walk over that roof as well? My gosh, I didn't realise that. Shame it's still not possible without AG though.
So EgxHB, if your main goal is Pacifist run - i highly recommend to use arrows weapon and avoid killing this innocent guy or change your branch to "No extra weapons".
