Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Now that interest seems to be sparking up again with this, I just wanted to chime in and say I'm quite excited to see progress on this! I don't think I know enough to be a real technical help, but I'm happy to encourage.
Given how tricky this game is to run, would it make sense to get an improved run submitted soon, even if some further improvements are possible? (It would be sort of like what happened with Rockin Kats, and what should've happened with Legend of Toki.) That can help more people to get involved with the game.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
I noticed this game has a very old and obsolete submission. So I figured it would make a good short project before I try to find a bigger one.
It seems this project was abandoned several times in the past, let's see if it can be completed in time for the 10 year anniversary of the original publication. (Even though being obsoleted is not much of an anniversary gift.)
I would be happy to work as a team if anyone is interested : )
If it helps add support, here is a complete game WIP which is already a 10 second improvement over the existing submission. It syncs with the (E) ! Rom and on FCEUX 2.2.2.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19872286978671407
I know it is not as fast as Randil's level 1 WIP, but for now I stuck with the 'does not take damage' tag as in the original submission.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
If you already have a WIP which is an improvement, is it worth submitting for the moment? Even if it's not optimal, it's better than the existing publication, and sometimes having movies like that in the submission queue sparks up interest for people to work on the movies. That might get more visibility.
Personally, I don't see a lot of use in keeping 'does not take damage'. While this is an impressive game to avoid damage in, it's even more impressive IMHO to ration health carefully.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Its definitely not worth submitting. This is basically just me learning about the game for now. I even used the slower PAL version so in fact the movie would be longer (in terms of play time.)
If something were worth submitting it would be aglar's complete game WIP which is well over a minute faster. If I could make that kind of improvement I would have submitted it already. : )
Ok, I looked everything over and from what I can tell, the Level 1 WIP from 5 years ago is already as good as it gets. So I combined it with an updated level 2 with better routing to the boss and got the current WIP.
It is about 4.5 seconds faster then Aglar's complete game WIP to this point, mainly due to the magic strats Randil used. For comparison, Aglar's WIP was already over 1 minute faster then the published run.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20042904239016310
I don't expect too much improvement from here on, maybe a few more seconds. The route is really straight forward after getting the infinite magic glitch.
Also, thelegendarymudkip will be teaming up with me to complete this run!
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Looking forward to this one!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 11/14/2011
Posts: 68
Location: Brookline, MA
Alyosha,
I compared your WIP to my WIP 3 from a few months ago and there are a few possible optimizations you can make on level 2. Note that overall, your WIP is faster and gains 100% mana on the first boss fight so good job there.
1. After the Golden Fly pickup, I save 4 frames on the descent to the entrance into the frog room. You will need to test out the frame rule on entrance to the frog room since I save another 4 frames from it but your outcome might wind up different.
2. In the descent to the entrance into the water lair, I save 8 frames.
3. You can ignore the part where I pick mana up since you don't need it, however, I have a different, more interesting way to fight the boss. I save 3 frames during the fight and it may be possible to save even more frames. My method is to get in the boss' face and attack while jumping constantly and staying as far right as the game allows. In my earlier, but slower samples, from WIP 1 and 2, I also allow the boss to attack and miss me multiple times for added entertainment. Implementing this strategy did prove to be quite frustrating though, but was worth the effort.
As you do the other levels, I will see if I can offer some more advice where possible.
Good luck on the game.
Oh thanks, I didn't know you had worked on this game. I will look into those things.
I can't seem to find your WIP though, can you provide a link?
EDIT:
1. ah ok I already worked that out, thanks.
2. working on it.
3. I'll wait and see what it looks like in your WIP.
Cool thanks. I went back to to the descent after the frog and saved 12 frames with a different path, so that's already 20 frames better then my WIP, thanks for taking a second look!
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20098347936574494
new WIP up to level 4. Currently I am 6 seconds ahead of Aglar's complete game WIP.
I opted not to use rchokler's boss 2 start as I saved more frames by getting above him quicker at the end.
I thought I would save more frames in the first section of level 3 with the gas geysers, but it seems they are only marginally useful, and since they always shoot you to the left not useful in all cases.
Joined: 11/14/2011
Posts: 68
Location: Brookline, MA
Your level 3 is good. In fact I like your use of the steam eruptions to save frames over Aglar's run. However, I noted that during the lava boss fight, you seemed to hit the boss one frame after the boss resumed being vulnerable since I can see the eyes go white for a frame on a couple of moments. That costs frames of course.
However, in level 4, my descent after the Earth Scorch is collected is a couple of frames faster than Aglar by once again modifying the trajectory to land on an unavoidable platform closer to it's left edge. Keep that in mind as you do that level.
I don't think my WIP 3 has any more to offer beyond that though.
I could try to route level 5 to see if I can beat Aglar's route for it but most likely I will look for some other project. Good luck!
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20162877163042624
alright updated WIP to the last cave before the summit.
It mostly incorporates aglar's WIPs, since its just platforming it was already pretty optimal. But I saved a few frames here and there.
I also went back and realized I used the wrong level 1 WIP so resynced with the improved one and redid the boss fight to manipulate out enough mana.
I also redid the gysers and saved 10 extra frames, so that worked out well.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20199162381324799
Alright made it to the end!
Looks like it might submittable in time for 10 years of the original after all.
at the moment its about 1:12 faster then original, and almost 10 seconds faster then aglar's original complete WIP. (Although admittedly most of that improvement is with Aglar's own work, maybe about 2 seconds is my inputs.)
I'll take a little longer to look at the last boss fight a few more times, but I got some pretty great luck already so not sure how much more improvement I can get.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
I'd like to keep looking into something brought up in the publication thread:
deg222 wrote:
2) Assembling the Iron Sword skip - there's a way to skip the message half way through the song... although I've never been able to do it consistently and could never do it on my real runs. Maybe a button needs to be pressed on a certain frame? Anyways, there's an alternate consistent way of doing it, but you need to have a spell with you, so that's not relevant here.
deg222 wrote:
But as far as the Iron Sword skip, I felt like holding a direction before hand made a difference? I'm not sure, it never felt consistent.
This would be a solid 3-4 seconds of improvement if it's possible to get without the use of a spell, but it might still be an improvement regardless. The fact that holding a direction apparently makes a difference makes me believe that it's RNG-based, though given my limited knowledge of the game I wouldn't know where to start with that. I tried brute-forcing it by just holding up for varying lengths of time, but wasn't able to get anywhere with it.
How exactly does the spell system work? If there's another easily obtainable key along the route, could you figuratively pick up Fleet Foot, use it somewhere to save time, then use it further to open the magic menu and allow for the song skip? Or does the spell actually disappear and leave you with no magic?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
I'd like to keep looking into something brought up in the publication thread:
deg222 wrote:
2) Assembling the Iron Sword skip - there's a way to skip the message half way through the song... although I've never been able to do it consistently and could never do it on my real runs. Maybe a button needs to be pressed on a certain frame? Anyways, there's an alternate consistent way of doing it, but you need to have a spell with you, so that's not relevant here.
deg222 wrote:
But as far as the Iron Sword skip, I felt like holding a direction before hand made a difference? I'm not sure, it never felt consistent.
This would be a solid 3-4 seconds of improvement if it's possible to get without the use of a spell, but it might still be an improvement regardless. The fact that holding a direction apparently makes a difference makes me believe that it's RNG-based, though given my limited knowledge of the game I wouldn't know where to start with that. I tried brute-forcing it by just holding up for varying lengths of time, but wasn't able to get anywhere with it.
How exactly does the spell system work? If there's another easily obtainable key along the route, could you figuratively pick up Fleet Foot, use it somewhere to save time, then use it further to open the magic menu and allow for the song skip? Or does the spell actually disappear and leave you with no magic?
The fleetfoot spell is a one time use spell. Once you use it it disappears. It lasts as long as you remain in the same area (don't enter any doors)
About this song skip, I have no idea. This game as several frame rules in place in various areas. It might be associated with one of those, in which case it wouldn't be RNG related at all, but truly I have no idea.
