How can you be sure that calebhart hasn't prerecorded his run and streamed it? your point is invalid, either you don't believe anyone or you believe it simple is that
note im not accusing calebhart to prerecord his runs ofc im just making a point here that anyone could cheat in one way or another if they wanted to
But this emulator DOES emulate the game properly. Hetfield does not use any features such as turbo. I'm stating facts here.
Hetfield has both any% and 100% world records, plays on emulator, and uses a keyboard. That is objective, not a matter of opinion.
Akisto wrote:
How can you be sure that calebhart hasn't prerecorded his run and streamed it? your point is invalid, either you don't believe anyone or you believe it simple is that
note im not accusing calebhart to prerecord his runs ofc im just making a point here that anyone could cheat in one way or another if they wanted to
Like, who the fuck are you two even? Is this Hetfield creating multiple accounts to defend himself? Could someone from the staff verify?
Like, who the fuck are you two even? Is this Hetfield creating multiple accounts to defend himself? Could someone from the staff verify?
I'm an established Mega Man X speedrunner. I'm stating the facts about my game. There's nothing to defend, as no one from this forum can change anything about how we treat emulator and console.
The reason I thought they were different categories for MMX is because hetfield plays on keyboard and Caleb uses an SNES controller. Keyboard has some distinct advantages for certain tricks in certain games.
This is not the case in Mega Man X. On a snes controller you can mash fire twice as fast per wrist movement as you can on keyboard simply by wiggling the controller back and fourth. You can attribute an objective time loss to this (I can usually kill bees 1-1.5 seconds faster on controller than I can on keyboard).
You also have a dpad which can be rotated to reach almost 60hz by itself to get out of octopus grips after only losing 1 hp, which is virtually impossible on keyboard. This saves nearly a second per grip as well as an additional second for every extra hit that it eliminates by the end of the fight (the thresholds for this are octopus siphoning 2hp, 5hp, 8hp etc..., so an additional 1 second lost after 1 grip, 2 seconds after 3 grips, etc...).
So where exactly does keyboard gain its advantage over controller in an mmx run? A lot of people say keyboard has an advantage over controller simply because the fastest runs are on keyboard whereas much more popular streamers play on controller, but they themselves have never played on keyboard so they have no way to form any sort of educated opinion on the matter. The most common phrase thrown around is "a finger for every input". Not only is this argument completely invalidated by the fact that you can have a finger for every input on SNES controller (besides dpad which would be unecessary, and even my directional inputs are shared by the same fingers that I use for L and R buttons) by playing fight stick style (Theherpderp88, Darkomegamagic, and Caracarnvi are a few MMX runners I know of who do this), but where exactly does this input setup save any time whatsoever or allow someone to do tricks that would be otherwise impossible? The answer is nowhere. Controller is unquestionably the superior input device to keyboard for MMX when you look at the facts, and keyboard offers absolutely nothing in return. Why do I speedrun on keyboard then? Because I was too lazy to buy a USB converter and a snes controller when I started learning the game.
As for the OP, I told you this maybe 3 or 4 times in Caleb's chat and it still never seemed to quite sink in. You can call the 2nd fastest time the "World Record" all you want, and it won't change which run is actually faster (not to mention the emulator I play on is unequivocally slower than console). It doesn't really matter what you think, neither yours nor anyone else's opinions change facts. Even if all of the leaderboards in the world decided to deprecate the usage of emulators in RTA, I would still have the fastest and most optimized run.
As far as legitimacy is concerned, I can't really put it any better than Patashu. My credibility as as a player has been established by streaming my practice and runs of MMX1-4 almost daily over the past year. I can guarantee that there is not a single person who actually watches my stream on a regular basis who doubts I have the skill to pull off the times that I do. I will never stream attempts with mic or webcam because they distract me from concentrating on runs, and I do not stream to entertain. All I care about is the quality of my play, and if this causes clueless individuals such as yourself who think that "TAS" is synonymous with "emulated RTA" and that Snes9x 1.5x emulators have no lag to question the legitimacy of my play, I guarantee you I won't lose a wink of sleep over it.
And since you do seem to be so confused about the difference between RTA and TAS, I figure I should at least let you know that tasvideos.org is not the best place to submit your complaints about RTA leaderboard policies. Perhaps you should try the RTA leaderboard forums instead: http://jokaah.com/mmrta/forums/
By the way many of Werster’s Pokémon WRs have apparently been invalidated because now emulators are banned for those games. Just found it funny, lol.
@Hetfield: you having the most optimized run doesn’t mean that you hold the WR. A WR is more than simple optimization. You sound like you would claim WR even if you were 1 second or so behind Caleb, because you run on emulator which is slower, therefore your run would actually be more optimized than Caleb’s and the true WR.
A real player wouldn’t consider an emulator run to be a WR, sorry. lol
Ask your followers for donations and get a real SNES with the game, then get the real WR.
Hetfield, I absolutely agree that the keyboard is an inferior input device for Mega Man X. The "distinct advantage" in "certain games" was referring to things like neon jumps in X2 or X3 and wall pumping in LttP. I have no opinion on those games either, but that is simply what I have heard from other runners on the matter. I was under the impression the keyboard was considered a "different category" or something worth mentioning across the board (regardless of game). If that's not actually the case, I'll keep that in mind next time someone says it is.
None of that post was my opinion. Was simply propagating what other runners have told me about those categories/distinctions. Sorry for the misunderstanding. ^_^
While what input method you use does affect how easy certain tricks are by a lot, I've never seen a leaderboard split up by what you used to play it. For example, on shmups forums, it doesn't matter if you used a pad, stick or keyboard to achieve your score, it's treated the same (although turbo on/off is a category for games where it matters, like Darius Gaiden). It's interesting to note of course, but ultimately you should learn the input method that's fastest for the game if you're seriously into it.
Ah I figured as much since you said certain games and not mmx specifically. Mmx is really the only game where I get flack for my input device because of the game's popularity, so I figured those things would still be worth stating for the record, lol.
I agree that neon jumps are easier on certain keyboards but harder on others; it all depends on the size/actuation of the keys and how deep the valleys are in between them. Regardless, emulator is already separate in x2 because of inaccuracy and the x3 community just recently decided to consolidate the categories after the frame testing Luiz and I did on lag, so I doubt anyone would want to change them back.
@Alakorn Darn, looks like I'm not a real player then. Apology accepted.
Oh and you don't have to worry about the frame rate discrepancy between emulator and console. RTA runs are measured in real time (hence "real time" attack). My run is the fastest by 11 seconds (it would be by 17s if I played on a 60.098814fps platform), so there's no need to worry about it being slower by any metric.
The awkward thing about the mmx community is that the majority of top tier players play on original hardware, and some of them tell their viewers on stream that keyboard is the "superior input device" to make it seem like that is the reason for the disparity between the fastest run and their own, but refuse to switch to it either because they secretly acknowledge the inherent disadvantages of keyboard/emulator which I mentioned in an earlier post or because of this widespread ignorant idea that their runs are more "legitimate" because they think it's impossible to cheat on original hardware.
Joined: 4/15/2013
Posts: 331
Location: In the attic
ALAKTORN wrote:
By the way many of Werster’s Pokémon WRs have apparently been invalidated because now emulators are banned for those games. Just found it funny, lol.
(...)
A real player wouldn’t consider an emulator run to be a WR, sorry. lol
First point: Are you able to elaborate on that? About emulators being banned for Pkmn games, I mean.
Second point: This is a similar opinion to what I wrote on page 1. When I wrote that 'emulator can't be compared to console', I was simply making a generalisation since I didn't really know about that being not necessarily true in the case of MMX.
First point: Are you able to elaborate on that? About emulators being banned for Pkmn games, I mean.
I just watched one of his newer WRs on YT and everybody was talking about that in the comments and he himself during the WR run (which was on an actual GBA). Basically I think they said it’s too easy to cheat on emulators, you can even change the code to make subtle, I guess undetectable cheating possible.
Hetfield90 wrote:
The awkward thing about the mmx community is that the majority of top tier players play on original hardware,
Yeah, that sure is awkward, playing the game how it’s meant to be played!
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
ALAKTORN wrote:
EgxHB wrote:
First point: Are you able to elaborate on that? About emulators being banned for Pkmn games, I mean.
I just watched one of his newer WRs on YT and everybody was talking about that in the comments and he himself during the WR run (which was on an actual GBA). Basically I think they said it’s too easy to cheat on emulators, you can even change the code to make subtle, I guess undetectable cheating possible.
There's a nice topic/debate about that here: http://forums.pokemonspeedruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=298. It was Werster himself who suggested that emulators be banned for Pokémon game leaderboards, even though it would invalidate many of his own records.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Afaik the Emulator ban came when out of nowhere a "random" guy called exarion got a 1:50 on emulator making werster question if it was real since it could be so easy to cheat on emulator by having a false rom which again is dumb because its just as easy to splice a run let alone add a rom to your flashcart and trick around with it without anyone noticing it. but then exarion got that 1:50 on console proved everyone wrong.
as soon as someone gets a WR on emulator its called "not the WR" which is dumb because apparently you are allowed to get WR's on VC ==== Emulator since VC runs faster for example DKC2 OoT(although most peopel run ique) SM64 etc etc. but apparently VC WR is allowed how? because it was developed by nintendo?
it could be so easy to cheat on emulator by having a false rom which again is dumb because its just as easy to splice a run let alone add a rom to your flashcart and trick around with it without anyone noticing it.
This continues to boggle my mind. It seems as if 99% of the speed run community is so ignorant that any one could splice console footage together using virtualdub and no one would even think twice to question its legitimacy, lol.
I think that the topic of "World Record" is just a sensitive one for some people and that they will come up with whatever excuse they can to pretend their favorite streamer has WR over someone with a better run.
I think that the topic of "World Record" is just a sensitive one for some people and that they will come up with whatever excuse they can to pretend their favorite streamer has WR over someone with a better run.
I don’t care about Caleb. I’m a speedrunner myself with more WRs than you can imagine, and it’s just stupid to think that an emulator run can be considered one.
[quote="Hetfield90"][quote="Akisto"]it could be so easy to cheat on emulator by having a false rom which again is dumb because its just as easy to splice a run let alone add a rom to your flashcart and trick around with it without anyone noticing it.[/quote]
This continues to boggle my mind. It seems as if 99% of the speed run community is so ignorant that any one could splice console footage together using virtualdub and no one would even think twice to question its legitimacy, lol.
I think that the topic of "World Record" is just a sensitive one for some people and that they will come up with whatever excuse they can to pretend their favorite streamer has WR over someone with a better run.[/quote]
indeed you can but it is allot easier to do it via emulator then console.
Joined: 4/15/2013
Posts: 331
Location: In the attic
Akisto wrote:
as soon as someone gets a WR on emulator its called "not the WR" which is dumb because apparently you are allowed to get WR's on VC ==== Emulator since VC runs faster for example DKC2 OoT(although most peopel run ique) SM64 etc etc. but apparently VC WR is allowed how? because it was developed by nintendo?
Virtual Console is an 'official' emulator. Because VC is running on more advanced hardware, it reduces lag in a lot of games. But, one big difference between VC and any computer-based emulator is that on VC you don't get throttle or savestates, which makes it a lot harder to cheat.
as soon as someone gets a WR on emulator its called "not the WR" which is dumb because apparently you are allowed to get WR's on VC ==== Emulator since VC runs faster for example DKC2 OoT(although most peopel run ique) SM64 etc etc. but apparently VC WR is allowed how? because it was developed by nintendo?
Virtual Console is an 'official' emulator. Because VC is running on more advanced hardware, it reduces lag in a lot of games. But, one big difference between VC and any computer-based emulator is that on VC you don't get throttle or savestates, which makes it a lot harder to cheat.
In this topic, a Wii console is more advanced than PC hardware.
