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Invariel
He/Him
Editor, Site Developer, Player (169)
Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Actually, I gave up understanding Whitespace to make room. I don't consider it a terrible loss.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
Alright, I might as well do my usual technique of throwing in one last messy and disjointed post and immediately forcing myself to stop caring about arguing with people on the internet. Kurabu: Yes, your question was harmless, and yes, I believe your responses were warranted. However, it's hard to give you any more information than what was already given. The vagueness and initial rudeness wasn't anything personal against you. Honestly, the big takeaway from all of this is that at the very least, zeromus isn't intentionally being rude. As much as I hate to say it, the best course of action is to just take his words as they are and ignore the tone of them. I've said it in a few threads now to a few different people, but the tone of a message shouldn't invalidate any information in said message. You can safely ignore insults and rude words and just take the information out of it. A lot of things can be learned through simple Google searches. Maybe not in this case, where it was explicitly stated there's no documentation for BizHawk's core implementation, but in general you'll probably want to do a bit of Googling before asking things like this. Like I said in... whatever other thread that was, my PM inbox is open if you're unsure of whether or not you should ask or even post something. I'm not the most knowledgeable person, sure, but I have all the time in the world to be polite and respectful! zeromus: I have nothing personal against you, and I'll even apologize for actively taking you away from development time. Your second response to Kurabu (the one after his apology) was perfectly fine from my perspective, and you weren't even particularly bad the first times around. I understand the frustration of dealing with people who aren't on your level, but at the same time I still honestly feel like it's just an excuse to not have to be nice to people. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll readily admit I'm wrong about a lot of things. To everyone: It wouldn't hurt to try to understand the other side. There's a lot that people can learn from Google before taking their questions to programmers, but on the other hand there's a lot of ways that programmers can be polite without wasting too much of their precious time. Here at least, I think that with maybe one Playstation loving exception, all the people here understand and respect the devs enough to work with them on bugs and issues they may have. If I may be blunt for a moment, time being wasted should never be an issue. No one is wasting anyone's time here. Addressing someone is your choice, and oh no! It's 30 seconds of your life you'll never get back! Maybe you could've just not addressed that person and your precious time would have been saved! I can't possibly say that in a nicer way, so just pretend I wrote a program or something to make it all okay. I understand that as programmers dealing with people using your programs, you sort of have the obligation to respond and try to help them out, but your general attitude about it is horrible. You always make it sound like you don't want to be there and that they're at fault for wasting your time, but... I mean, if I don't think I have the time to address something, I don't address it. People are patient. You don't have to answer them until you have the time to do so. Especially in the case of this thread, which isn't dealing with a problem at all. Fractal et al.: I still really don't think it should be defended, per se. To me, solarplex's first post was perfect in that regard: Addressing and admitting that it could have been better worded, but still focusing on the helpful information within. Anyone who understands the plight of a programmer could easily and thoughtfully explain the situation. The thread has honestly just seemed like people ganging up on Kurabu for no good reason. Someone could have explained what was going on instead of continuing to blame Kurabu for doing everything wrong when he had no idea he was even doing anything wrong in the first place. I guess that this was addressed on IRC, though I have no idea how that went. Saying the devs "have the right" to be rude to people for any reason is disgraceful. Even the catb article doesn't stoop to that level of disrespect. From what I skimmed in that article, it was mostly saying the same things that have been said in this thread more recently, that programmers don't intend to be rude or disrespectful for the most part, they're just being blunt and concise to try to deal with peoples' problems as quickly and painlessly as possible. I will agree that the devs have the right to be rude to anyone who is being rude to them in turn, but that's because I think everyone should have that right. No one should have the inherent right to be a douchebag to anyone they please for any reason they so choose, no one should actively defend that douchebaggery, and most of all, no one should fucking gang up on someone who's feeling bullied. Even if you don't think there's any bullying, you just don't do that. We're not in elementary school anymore, there's no need to be so childish. And speaking of childish, that leads me to my last statement. natt: Fuck off, and stop wasting everyone's time.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | Cohost
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Editor, Skilled player (1405)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2086
Kurabupengin, if you want to start learning programming with the intent of eventually porting a core or even just for fun, you may want to start posting in this thread. It doesn't really make much sense going into more detail than is given in this thread already because it would require an intermediate level of programming knowledge. You also should have a good understanding how emulators in general work. //I think the original response was in part generated because this forum tends to be more about concrete support questions and bug reports, rather than idle chatter without any real purpose, so people get irritated when these types of questions are asked. For an opposite situation, let's say for example you were in the process of porting a core and had a specific question about a specific problem you're running into - that would probably grant you a more helpful response.
Editor, Experienced player (608)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012
Zeromus, thank you for taking some time to explain your posting style. I understand the struggles of you and your team a lot better now.
Joined: 12/10/2006
Posts: 118
solarplex wrote:
But disregarding the learning a language portion. As simple as I can think of it (And I will state I have never implemented a core or have done anything meanful towards Bizhawk), but lets just assume: 1. you find a stable Neo Geo Pocket emulator (that some others have created) 2. strip it down to its system (no GUI, no controllers, no lua if it had it) 3. attach the missing pieces from Bizhawk's (GUI, Controller, anything else that needs connections).
That was a helpful answer. Thanks.
ALAKTORN
He/Him
Player (99)
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
I’m always surprised by how much zeromus is active in the forums and interacts with the community. Every time I’ve gone on IRC asking stupid questions about emulators he’s the only one who even answers most of the time. He’s a nice guy. I’ve had to deal with noobs from a position of power before, and I know how annoying it can get. Just wanted to let him know that I appreciate him. To dekutony I’d say that you need to grow some backbone and not get offended by everything. This topic should’ve been over after the first 3 posts, but you felt attacked and focused all of your posting in that direction rather than trying to understand what the answers you were given meant. I don’t want to make it sound like you’re completely at fault here or anything, you’re probably very young so it’s understandable, just saying. Natt’s answer was definitely on the level of being entitled to feel offended, I wouldn’t consider zeromus’s to be so.
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
Also, it could have been much worse. ;)
Experienced player (633)
Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2208
Location: Guatemala
I don't want to argue against Zanoab's valid argument... but implying that I need help is disgusting from him. I have 18 years old, and I know that all of you will say"behave like your age" and shit, but I was never that guy with social skills, in fact, I lack any ever since I was a kid, being bullied all the time in school and almost with suicidal thoughts on high school, and although I got over that, I was never able to talk to anyone, scared of them to hurt me inside. Then. I come here wanting to be an expert TASer just like adelikat, and wanting to help the site by learning, but of course, all sites have THOSE people. I want to apologize to zeromus, for my behavior, and for my ignorance. I understand now, but that doesn't mean you can't be nice. In fact, you can be a great programmer and good person at the same time of course it won't be easy, but you'll see it will be SO MUCH worth it... not all hope is lost. Admins: I want to be here, I love being here with you and I respect anything that you do, but please understand, I'm not really an average guy coming by, making stupid posts and crappy WIPs, but I think, in the end, I found my place to stay until God let's me to. Sorry for all inconveniences, have a nice day and sorry for my bad english... D;
Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony
Active player (471)
Joined: 2/1/2014
Posts: 928
Good for you for apologizing. It's hard when English isn't everyone's first language. Things may come off as offensive until you can read between the lines with how most people write (especially with the way younger generations are currently writing, dear god we need a grammar button, not just spell check). I usually like to re-read what someone has written two or three times before trying to attempt to write something back. It is also hard for people not to instinctively get defensive and want to "punch back." My parents have always told me, "kill them with kindness", "if you don't like something, say something politely" and "ask for what you want". So keep asking questions and following wherever you want to go. Stay polite and peaceful ^_^
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
Sad but true, this is how all too broad emucoding questions end up being answered. It's not frequent at all that someone who can do things also cares about teaching others do all of them. So out of a whole bunch of coders only one will write a guide. But can there be a guide for writing an emulator from scratch (the most common question)? There can be some story of how some guy wrote it, but it never was intended to guide some newbie. Who wrote it was just using his knowledge and showing off how he applied it. There can not possibly be a guide for someone who's new to coding about how to design a successful software product, right? It's even worse: no one is ever going to teach anyone emucoding. This sphere is too specific for big guys to care, everyone is on his own. This is why the only way to be productive is to ask concrete questions about implementation problems, like on StackOverflow. Concrete questions - concrete answers. All the rest is up to you. Kurabupengin, if you still care about the topic, here's how one comes from seeing the code for the first time to committing to official repo: - practice basic understanding by something maximum simple, like lua, then try writing complex things with it - look at emulator code and try changing something you want to be changed, gaining understanding of what serious guys do (the hardest part) - as you get familiar with how the code works, add some feature you'd write from scratch (also quite hard, but most importantly one needs to spend A LOT of time with this), using google like crazy - as you learn how to properly code, start committing some simple features to the repo See how there's nothing more complex in this list? It's only for true geeks! :D If you keep wanting, you may THEN look at how existing cores look, try to learn how they work internally (until it starts making no sense), how they are connected to the client and then how the client uses them. Only then you may try applying that picture to something that didn't have it, as in, port a new core. PS: if the admin of the project isn't harsh from time to time, one doesn't care about how good something he did is, that he wants admin to adopt to the project. No one wants to adopt crap, right? And it's just reality: coders don't like to be gentle about crap. What is crap in the eyes of a coder? That's a very good question. But someone who's not a coder has no way to understand the answer. Unfortunately.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

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