Submission Text Full Submission Page Publication Page
Umihara no Naku Kawase Shun is a Japanese murder mystery game with some really innovative fishing segments. You Reading This is a very disappointed submission text reader who feels as though Samsara could have come up with a better intro.

This Run Is "Slower" Because Of More Accurate Emulation

To be more specific, this run has a longer input time because of the PSX BIOS being included. I'm putting this at the front because there has been more than one recent occasion where some blind TAS watcher votes No for the run being "slower" even though all of the gameplay segments are improved.
So maybe adding a long section where people will see it might help... but then again, I've overestimated the people on this forum before.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: BizHawk 1.11.1
  • Aims for fastest in-game time, technically
  • I'm not doing water puns again
  • You remember what happened last time
  • Yeah, I thought so
  • I don't want the thread flooded with puns
  • WAIT
  • OH NO

Author's Encode

(removed, sorry!)

Comments

Umihara Kawase Shun, aside from a phrase you should always reply to with "gesundheit", is part of the Umihara Kawase series. Until recently, the Umihara Kawase series was Japan-only, but the most recent games are making their way stateside. Could this description get any more stentorian? Let me try.
Shun is the 2nd game in the series, obviously released on PSX, but it was packaged with the first game and ported to the DS, with a couple added features and some changes to the levels. Shun plays a bit slower than the original game, but the physics are mostly the same between the games aside from the line being a bit shorter.
This run is 516 frames faster than the published run in terms of in-game frames. Like the SNES Umihara Kawase run, I initially had this run finished, but decided to check one last time for alternate TASes and ended up finding a Nico TAS of the DS version. Even more coincidentally, the run I found was from TKDL, the same TASer whose run I found last time. Apart from the first, every Field in this run either matches or beats TKDL's times.

Stage Comparisons

Thanks to Spikestuff for making this section possible.
FIELDMukkiSamsaraFrames Improved
001002843159
1160155744
2345843820
1452350716
158037967
35101493668
3655152922
31718565153
3045642927

Field-by-Field Comments

Field 00

This Field is around a second slower than TKDL's TAS, and there's a very good reason why that is. If we hearken back to the run comments, I mentioned that the DS port has extra features and some changes to the levels. The extra features aren't really anything to write home about, because they're in Japanese and no one at my home would understand it, but Field 00 in the DS port actually has extra platforms and less enemies, which allows for a different and faster route through. This is the only Field in the run where that's relevant. The rest of the Fields in the run are unchanged in the DS port and thus completely comparable.
The bulk of the improvement is made up through better line control and the faster strategy at the end. The first swing up onto the platform, though it looks innocuous, was actually one of the tougher things in the run to get. Mukki wasn't able to get it in his run, but after working on it for an hour or so I finally managed to get Umihara to cooperate.

Field 11

I get a bigger swing than TKDL which lets me come in slightly faster, though I have to hook the ground to bring myself down in order to actually go into the door.

Field 23

One of the more interesting and tough to optimize strategies in the run. An odd little bit of physics abuse happens where jumping off of the slope actually lets me jump forward at full speed without the need to accelerate.

Field 14

Probably the stage I spent the second most time on overall. One of the problems with Umihara TASing is that there are so many places where you can potentially lose time, so if you're comparing to another TAS and you end up behind, then you pretty much have to go back through the entire stage several times over to see where you might've gone wrong. The end bit with the fast swing up onto the door platform was the trickiest part. It requires a pretty precise angle and really good line control.

Field 15

Thankfully this stage was already faster than TKDL's. Everything is mostly similar to Mukki's run except more optimized.

Field 35

The longest stage in the run! There's a lot of trickery with the line here. The last jump and swing in particular was a pain, but it paid off since I improved TKDL's time by a frame.

Field 36

A short stage that's a hell of a lot trickier than it looks, since it requires really precise control and a little bit of physics abuse.

Field 31

Spikestuff pointed out that a realtime run of this stage was about half a second faster than the published run, and that's what inspired me to give the game a look in the first place. I ended up taking that 30 frames of improvement and shaving another 2 seconds off of it by being able to slip past the right tadpole and put myself in a much better position to get under the left one at the earliest possible opportunity.

Field 30

This Field took about 8 hours of work total. Despite being one of the shorter stages in the run, it was also the hardest to properly optimize. Every swing, hook placement, and lengthening/shortening of the line is frame-precise, otherwise the entire strategy falls apart. I did find that it is possible to jump off of the slanted spikes if you land on them the right way, but it doesn't save any time.

Other comments

All in all, I always have fun TASing Umihara games. I'm still thinking about going back to the SNES version and seeing what I can do about improving Sightseeing and possibly trying to shave a few frames off of any%, but I feel like I have much bigger projects to worry about in the meantime.

Special Thanks

  • Biggest thanks to TKDL, the prime Umihara Kawase TASer out there. Without their TASes, both the SNES Sightseeing run and this run wouldn't be nearly as fast as they are
  • Extra thanks to Spikestuff for cluing me in on the Field 31 improvement and for finding the in-game framecounts of the published run so I could properly compare times
  • Shoutouts to arandomgameTASer, xy2_, ars4326, dekutony, and anyone else supporting me in the IRC for being chill and motivating
  • Extra shoutouts to moozooh, who can't fault me for deviating from the proper Sightseeing path this time. HA! IN YOUR FACE! pls enjoy the run :c

Screenshot Suggestion

Frame 4835, 6618, 7517
ars4326: Claimed for judging!
ars4326: Hello again, Samsara. Closer watching the two runs side-by-side (and compensating for the difference in loading times), it was evident that the gameplay optimizations made were very significant over Mukki's TAS. Good to see that every stage was improved upon (and that you also took the initiative to match, or exceed, TKDL's work, too). Overall, remarkable work and dedication on this one!
Accepting as an improvement (better emulation and optimization) to the published run!
Spikestuff: Publishing.

Show more

Hide
1 2
Posted: 9/6/2015 1:58 AM
Quote
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2642)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
Flash TASer of 2022 PSX TASer of 2016
ALAKTORN wrote:
Yeah, what’s up with that? I thought it was a rule that all submissions had to stay for at least 7 days before any judgement was passed upon them.
"There is a minimum time a submission can be in queue before a verdict can be made (currently 72 hours). Prior to this time a submission can be set to "judging underway" or "needs more info"." - Judge Guidelines
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Posted: 9/6/2015 2:55 AM
Quote
Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Well, it was claimed at 71 hours, accepted at 73, and published at 74. By the guidelines, yeah, but the spirit seems a little bruised. The guidelines also say to give a chance for rebuttal, which was obviously not done, and the prevailing attitude on the site is that once a decision has been made, it is final and absolute, and any kind of futher argument against it is sour grapes from anybody who disagrees, or just as often, ignored completely. I think the judge guidelines need to either be touched up, or a refresher course offered. I feel it'd be really useful if judges actually posted their decisions in threads when they made them instead of being tucked away in an edit on the first page. If you mainly view things through the forum, it's very easy to miss that.
Posted: 9/6/2015 5:38 AM
Quote
ars4326
He/Him
Experienced player (777)
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Tangent wrote:
Well, it was claimed at 71 hours, accepted at 73, and published at 74. By the guidelines, yeah, but the spirit seems a little bruised. The guidelines also say to give a chance for rebuttal, which was obviously not done, and the prevailing attitude on the site is that once a decision has been made, it is final and absolute, and any kind of futher argument against it is sour grapes from anybody who disagrees, or just as often, ignored completely. I think the judge guidelines need to either be touched up, or a refresher course offered. I feel it'd be really useful if judges actually posted their decisions in threads when they made them instead of being tucked away in an edit on the first page. If you mainly view things through the forum, it's very easy to miss that.
Tangent, I see some valid criticism here, on my part (I'm still a relatively new judge and am working at getting better at my position). I, admittedly, went ahead and made an official judgment on this run just after the 72 hour waiting period. I felt the significantly improved stage times over Mukki, and Samsara's effort and research into matching/improving TKDL's known times, were enough to warrant a decision right out of the gate. It is rather disappointing to see that new source from OneDrive appear (and I imagine it would be so much easier, as Gay mentioned, if the Japanese community had more of an established equivalent to TASVideos readily available on the Internet). Lesson learned. From here forward, I'll make a mental note of the OneDrive link (which I've bookmarked) and allow some more time for a submission to sit and collect feeback. And until something more concrete can be come up with, I may also consistently post a copy of my written judgment on the forums (which I'll add, below): ---- OFFICIAL JUDGMENT Closely watching the two runs side-by-side (and compensating for the difference in loading times), it was evident that the gameplay optimizations made were very significant over Mukki's TAS. Good to see that every stage was improved upon (and that you also took the initiative to match, or exceed, TKDL's work, too). Overall, remarkable work and dedication on this one! Accepting as an improvement (better emulation and optimization) to the published run!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/6/2015 7:07 AM
Quote
mattk210
Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 19
I guess this is not what you want to hear, but actually all your times are worse than the best human records as well (except F31, which seems to be maxed). As far as I know, these are all of TKDL's latest TAS records https://onedrive.live.com/?id=889B1157913CBFE3%21143&cid=889B1157913CBFE3&group=0 and here is a listing of human records http://eventer.jp/kawase/
Posted: 9/6/2015 7:11 AM
Quote
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2238)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Homebrew TAS of 2023 Exotic platforms TAS of 2020 Sega TAS of 2016
mattk210 wrote:
I guess this is not what you want to hear, but actually all your times are worse than the best human records as well (except F31, which seems to be maxed).
I mean, yeah, go ahead, keep knowingly pouring salt into the wounds. That's definitely a good thing for you to be doing.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 9/6/2015 10:47 AM
Quote
mattk210
Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 19
certainly i didn't withhold that information just to say it now and make things worse. I only thought to check the realtime records when i was looking for a list of tas records all in one place. And I think it's important information that should be known in this context! In any case the japanese community seems to be very active/competitive compared to the english-speaking community. So I don't think it's so bad to get worse times than them!
Posted: 9/6/2015 11:07 AM
Quote
Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4124)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Exotic platforms TASer of 2018 Exotic platforms TAS of 2018 Exotic platforms TASer of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TASer of 2016 Exotic platforms TAS of 2016 Gameboy TASer of 2013
Tangent wrote:
Well, it was claimed at 71 hours, accepted at 73, and published at 74. By the guidelines, yeah, but the spirit seems a little bruised.
This is something that's always going to happen regardless of how short or long the time limit is. Sometimes judging and publishing just don't take that much time and everything is already ready by the time the limit is up.
Tangent wrote:
The guidelines also say to give a chance for rebuttal, which was obviously not done,
This judge guideline refers to a judge having comments about the run that would require answering (like questions). That was not the case here, so this quotation is irrelevant.
Tangent wrote:
and the prevailing attitude on the site is that once a decision has been made, it is final and absolute, and any kind of futher argument against it is sour grapes from anybody who disagrees, or just as often, ignored completely.
The only thing that cannot be reversed is when a movie is published. Judge decisions are not absolute before then. A submission can be accepted then still rejected before publication, or a run can be rejected then unrejected and accepted, and both have happened several times. The problem here is that the window between accepting and publishing was less than an hour, so the window of reversability ended up being rather short. That said, the problem with any sort of waiting period for possible posts is that feedback could appear at any time right after a submission is published (thus past the reversal point). In fact, because of the visibility that comes after publishing a movie, chances are that posts like mattk210's would not have come until after publication regardless of how much time is spent in the queue. Do we need to forestall every submission judgment by even longer on the very off chance that someone might just be aware of an improvement but reads the workbench less frequently than every 72 hours? This is not exactly a common occurrence, mind.
Tangent wrote:
I think the judge guidelines need to either be touched up, or a refresher course offered.
What judge guidelines need touching up, in your opinion?
Tangent wrote:
I feel it'd be really useful if judges actually posted their decisions in threads when they made them instead of being tucked away in an edit on the first page. If you mainly view things through the forum, it's very easy to miss that.
Putting away judge decisions in the middle of a forum topic makes them nearly impossible to keep track of. Perhaps there could be a status update post on accepting a la TASVideoAgent/TASVideosGrue do now on publishing/grueing respectively, but this isn't the topic to go on about something like that.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 9/6/2015 11:17 AM
Quote
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2642)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
Flash TASer of 2022 PSX TASer of 2016
If anyone says that the Japanese community wasn't aware of this when it was created I will just stare at you. This was uploaded to nicovideo on the day of the submission: Link to video Anyways, that's just my two cents to cover a possible statement of the Japanese community didn't know.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Posted: 9/6/2015 4:40 PM
Quote
Neo
They/Them
Joined: 11/8/2013
Posts: 9
Samsara wrote:
mattk210 wrote:
I guess this is not what you want to hear, but actually all your times are worse than the best human records as well (except F31, which seems to be maxed).
I mean, yeah, go ahead, keep knowingly pouring salt into the wounds. That's definitely a good thing for you to be doing.
Hey guy, grow up. mattk210 is being nothing but informative. Either redo the movie or not, that's your call, but don't shoot the messenger.
Posted: 9/6/2015 5:17 PM
Quote
xy2_
Editor, Experienced player (848)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
Arcade TASer of 2016
Neo wrote:
Samsara wrote:
mattk210 wrote:
I guess this is not what you want to hear, but actually all your times are worse than the best human records as well (except F31, which seems to be maxed).
I mean, yeah, go ahead, keep knowingly pouring salt into the wounds. That's definitely a good thing for you to be doing.
Hey guy, grow up. mattk210 is being nothing but informative. Either redo the movie or not, that's your call, but don't shoot the messenger.
Adding to this, I'm a member of the Super Monkey Ball community and it's very common for TASes to get beat by human records (or even in some cases, TAS being unable to emulate the human record..) It doens't mean the TAS is in vain or bad, though!
Youtube
Posted: 9/8/2015 3:10 AM
Quote
Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Mothrayas wrote:
Tangent wrote:
Well, it was claimed at 71 hours, accepted at 73, and published at 74. By the guidelines, yeah, but the spirit seems a little bruised.
This is something that's always going to happen regardless of how short or long the time limit is. Sometimes judging and publishing just don't take that much time and everything is already ready by the time the limit is up.
Tangent wrote:
The guidelines also say to give a chance for rebuttal, which was obviously not done,
This judge guideline refers to a judge having comments about the run that would require answering (like questions). That was not the case here, so this quotation is irrelevant.
Tangent wrote:
I think the judge guidelines need to either be touched up, or a refresher course offered.
What judge guidelines need touching up, in your opinion?
It sounds like the intended interpretation is only for rebuttal against rejection then, not a rebuttal to any decision. Why is a positive decision unassailable but not a negative? To add onto this, I don't think there has ever been a judge's decision that was changed from accept to reject during the publication pending period, and not to harp on this submission again, but it hits the cycle of problems, from almost entirely negative feedback before acceptance, to publication immediately after acceptance, to the judge making their decision based on incorrect assumptions and failing to actually check much of anything on mechanics or optimality. Even more tangentially, it's frustrating to ask for clarification on why decisions were made, or to bring up points about decisions, and for them to go completely ignored. Even if it's just "Mistakes were made, lessons learned, next time will be better" that'd be better than being seemingly ignored and blown off.
Tangent wrote:
I feel it'd be really useful if judges actually posted their decisions in threads when they made them instead of being tucked away in an edit on the first page. If you mainly view things through the forum, it's very easy to miss that.
Putting away judge decisions in the middle of a forum topic makes them nearly impossible to keep track of. Perhaps there could be a status update post on accepting a la TASVideoAgent/TASVideosGrue do now on publishing/grueing respectively, but this isn't the topic to go on about something like that.
Putting them both places would be best. I agree and understand that there will always be cases when someone pops up with poor timing to find issues, but I think it's still worth making the judge's decisions more visible and providing at least some period of time between making a decision and it becoming final so people actually have a chance to address it, like, say, if it was based on incorrect assumptions and needs more proof of suboptimality.
1 2