Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Final Fantasy rules! Of course there is no official English translation of FF2j on the NES, so a TAS would have to use the original Japanese ROM. Anyway, this game may not be too bad to timeattack, as it's possible to avoid random battles. Two methods I've found:
--You can save anywhere in the outer world, with no item needed. Save, power cycle and reload to avoid the battle.
--Go into inventory and use a healing item or spell. It's not enough to just go into inventory, you have to use something. Unfortunately, you can't cast cure on someone with full HP. You can use a potion, however, and this will avoid the encounter.
There is a well-known glitch which allows weapon skill levels to be easily increased. You simply command one member to fight then cancel the next person's command, and repeat the command to fight. (so you can't do it for the last person.) It's slow and tedious for a timeattack, but hopefully it's only necessary for one person to build up one weapon type (probably sword, but maybe axe). This works on magic too, but there may be no advantage.
This game has no levels, instead stats go up randomly after each victorious battle depending on what happens in the fight. Take damage, HP might go up. Lose MP, max MP goes up. Cast a spell for magic power, fight for strength. If this system can be manipulated well, then all the strength necessary to beat the game can be acquired pretty early on.
What I think is necessary: at least one character with high hp, one with high mp and low magic power and of course one with high strength and weapon skill who will slaughter the bosses. Theoretically, this could be combined into one person, but it might be easier for two or three to build up skills in parallel. Each battle fought will drain the high-hp character, and the high-mp person will gradually heal them, avoiding battles. In boss fights, the high-strength killer will do his thing, perhaps in one blow each time. Swords are likely because there is a blood sword somewhere that can do insane amounts of damage. There's also the ancient sword which can curse any enemy, lowering their defenses significantly. So perhaps someone will curse the enemy (only takes one hit) and then someone else will use an axe for extra power.
Also, wide amounts of the world open up quickly in this game. If you've played then you know how easy it is to encounter some very nasty enemies early on. This is the only thing preventing trips to the later towns, where better weapons and magic could be acquired.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Wow, this would be incredible to watch due to the sick amount of luck manipulation required. You'd also have to route a map, taking into account the monsters you can encounter in some regions of the map (although at some point all monsters will be of the same strength, e.g. Antilons).
I'll try to help with the planning if you start this, although I only finished it once.
I've finished the game once or twice myself. Using the NES version on emulator, I never did get through the Origins or GBA versions. I'd personally love to see a TAS of this game. Most people seem to dislike it, calling it the Black Sheep of the FF series, but I've always enjoyed the game's uniqueness. It also has a surprisingly good story (for the time), though that won't factor into the TAS at all, unless you make subtitles for the AVI.
I seem to recall a good source of money early on, if you need it, is to fight ogre-like enemies found far north of where you start, they randomly drop spell books which sell for quite a bit of cash.
I haven't beaten FF2 yet, so I'd like to see a run of it. I think the concept of stats randomly going up depending on what you do in battle is interesting, and shouldn't be too hard to manipulate. As for the cash factor, will you have to buy many items or any weapons/armor? Not having to stop at a shop would really save time wouldn't you think?
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
I always thought that the leveling system in this game would make it impossible to clear with the same reckless abandon as in FF1. If you try to speed through the game, your defence probably would end up being low, which means a lot of curing, which means your cure spell would end up gaining levels. In theory.
As I recall, boosting your max mp is one of the most tedious and irritating tasks in the history of all mankind. You'd have to drag out the fights long enough to use enough mp to actually get the game to give you a level. For this reason, perhaps some high level spells would be needed (or at least 1 high level spell--perhaps fire). Although with rerecords, you'd know exactly how many spells you'd have to use before you would gain a level.
Also, I recall a lot of running back and forth across the world map to get the peices of information you needed with the 'ask' system. Some good planning for that is in order.
Unfortunately, building up your weapons skill requires that you cancel and re-select 100 times at the higher levels. And you can only gain 1 level per fight. I don't remember if this is cut in half if you have two, say, swords equipped.
Also also, I remember if you are wearing a sheild, your defence buils quicker, but your hp won't build as fast as a result. Or, at least, that ended up happening last time I played the game where one character had 2 weapons and 1 with a weapon and a sheild through the whole game. Knowing that, perhaps it's worth checking what would happen if you alternated between 2 weapons for building levels and a weapon & sheild for straight fighting.
I think I'll run some tests when I get home this evening.
I believe in the NES version, the cancel-reselect trick for weapon (and magic) level gaining needs 100 reselects for EVERY level. In the remakes they dropped the number a bit for earlier levels to make the game easier. The good news is, though, that it doesn't increase later on, it stays at 100.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Inzult wrote:
And you can only gain 1 level per fight. I don't remember if this is cut in half if you have two, say, swords equipped.
Yes, using a weapon in both hands does make you level up twice as fast.
Inzult wrote:
Also also, I remember if you are wearing a sheild, your defence buils quicker, but your hp won't build as fast as a result.
Actually, shields are useless in this game. Wearing them usually does not affect your defence, but it does tone down your attack power. Wearing heavy armor doesn't allow your vitality to build up, but it builds up your power instead.
I'm actually not entirely sure on how vitality increased anymore, but I do know it's most likely getting hit hard (e.g. one attack from a monster or party member that takes off more than half your health). I'd have to check to make sure.
EDIT: the select-cancel trick requires 50 selects for the first level, and 100 for all levels that come after it (because on weapon/magic level 1, every select will increase it with 2 instead of just 1).
EDIT: and yes, using two swords should effectively reduce this to 25 times for the first level, and 50 times for all levels after that.
Actually, shields are useless in this game. Wearing them usually does not affect your defence, but it does tone down your attack power. Wearing heavy armor doesn't allow your vitality to build up, but it builds up your power instead.
Maybe it's different tin he FFO version then and I'm getting mixed up. Or my brain is too damaged to remember things. Or maybe the effect I was experiencing was because of heavy armor.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Most likely, it won't be possible to slip through as easily as FF1. However, I think it may be possible to whup early enemies and get all the stats I need quickly by manipulating luck.
Stat building might be based on a probability system. Use a little MP for a small chance to increase max MP, but use a lot and there is a big chance to increase max MP. Of course luck manipulation would only require a chance greater than zero. I haven't tested this out yet though.
Right, shields don't increase defense, just evade. Having two weapons may be faster for building weapon skill, but in a two-weapon attack, each weapon is weak. However, one weapon and a free hand increases attack power. So yeah, shields are out.
Inzult, you can up your max MP much more easily with the Aspil spell. Unfortunately, you can't get it until near the end of the game, but some enemies between Phin and Mysidia use it. You just let them steal your MP and then you'll gain max MP. With the spell yourself, you can drain down one person's MP, then have them cast it on someone else in the party.
Also, if spell levels increasing becomes a problem, most spells can be discarded and relearned, resetting to level 1.
Right now I am just thinking and putting this up for discussion. If I work on this game, I will start out on a translated version. As an American, I only know one language, and even that...only so-so. ;)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I've heard of a technique that requires you to get into an easy battle and use Change lv. 5 on an enemy by the lowest stat party member. Then, the second lowest stat party member will use Change lv. 5 on him. And then the second highest stat party member will use Change lv. 5, and finally the highest stat party member. So you're passing around the low health of that enemy you first attacked, and even though you'll end up at a normal amount of health, your stats will increase.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
I have wondered about using bare hands vs weapons. There's some separation between the power of a weapon and character strength in the damage calculations, but I'm not sure exactly how it works out. Indeed, bare hands may be stronger.
Also, I got to thinking about how useful the change spell might be. I wouldn't have to do much damage to bosses if I could simply come in with one person low on HP, they cast change, and I kill the boss with very little damage. The trick to increase HP and MP could also be useful. The catch is obtaining the spell early. The problem isn't getting to Mysidia, but getting the thousands of gold needed.
I was poking around gamefaqs, and I saw something interesting. I don't know if you guys are aware of it or not, but what the hell:
If you think Cid's Airship goes too slow, there's a way to give it an extra speed boost. Rapidly press the "B" button real fast 40 times. Then, you'll start to go really fast. Hold down "B" and you can keep going at this speed. It makes trips around the world A LOT easier!
And, for early money, how fesable is it to take on the guards in Phin? The amount of money needed for change could be gotten in as few as 2 fights.
There is a Prototype ROM out somewhere from Final Fantasy II (U). So this is an official translation. Was released someday and its official.
Or will be Prototype ROMs not accepted, when the game released in Japan but not in USA official? The USA Prototype ROM is official and contain some minor graphic changes I think.
Last TAS finished: Final Fantasy Adventure (4.0 Warp Glitch Run)
WIP in the moment: Tail Gator (GB)
Matty
I came across that Prototype Rom myself, and sure enough it seems to be fully translated, though not really translated WELL. "We want to join the Rebellions!" I'm not entirely sure if it would be accepted, Prototype roms seem to be a bit iffy. Plus I haven't played through it, and I dunno who has, so who knows if there's not some error later in the game?
It was a little while ago that I bothered to work on the random attacks in this game. But the following are my notes on the subject:
//f5 == pointer to table index at 0x3F900, which relates to random attack.
/*PRNG? $80=(($27+#07) << 4) & #07
$80=(($28+#07)>> 2) & #38 | $80
x=$6012 & #40 | $80*/
It's rather odd. $F5 seems to dec on each step, which is then used as the index into the table at 0x3F900, and some how $80 mixes into it all.
There is a Prototype ROM out somewhere from Final Fantasy II (U). So this is an official translation. Was released someday and its official.
It was never released to the public, and the translation was never finished. It was an in-house prototype that was later leaked. It has the same status as the translated Mother (= Earthbound or Earthbound Zero depending on whether or not you have the emu-friendly hacked version), albeit from a much earlier phase in development.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
If there is a sort of an "official" translation of the game, would it be that bad to use it? Since it's a RPG the text makes a whole lot to the story. I assume that in a TAS one would just get rid of them as soon as possible, but I wouldn't mind be able to reading the conversations anyway. I don't remember much of the game except small parts of it and the last boss, so to follow the story would be nice. One alternative is to learn japanese I guess but.. well, I don't have that time right now =/
Is there anyone up for an attempt of this game? If anyone accepts this, can't the English fan translation be used? I'd much rather prefer to be able to understand what's going on even if I can only see text for a few seconds. And besides, hacks have been accepted before.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
I think the GBA version should be used since it already has a complete translation although you do lose quite a few tricks but there are some benefits that I think would more than make up for such losses (the card game comes to mind where you can get some really cool/powerful equipment).
I hope this game gets picked up, for whichever system.
Is there anyone up for an attempt of this game? If anyone accepts this, can't the English fan translation be used? I'd much rather prefer to be able to understand what's going on even if I can only see text for a few seconds. And besides, hacks have been accepted before.
Hacks, like Air and Super Demo World, but not translations.
Personally, I'd rather see the Japanese version with an audio commentary that explains the plot, and maybe some tasty bits of dialogue... along with all the TAS'ing tricks involved, of course. Beats trying to glean some meaning from Engrish that's too fast to read.
I think the GBA version should be used since it already has a complete translation although you do lose quite a few tricks but there are some benefits that I think would more than make up for such losses (the card game comes to mind where you can get some really cool/powerful equipment).
Not to mention, you can hold down the B button to run while you're not in the overworld.
By the way, about the Engrish... that's only in the prototype.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
well WTF ever happened to fortune? he was working on one for GBA... maybe interest lost.
from what i played of it, manipulating the next battle by waiting can take quite a while... not frames, seconds.
the cancel trick gone, but the card game is for gaining money. if you could glitch the toad spell to a high level so that it changes the rewards... but i wouldnt know where the begin.
and the fists become quite useless around deist (dist, whatever...), or maybe i wasnt doing it right.
the games leveling your stats up (such as weapons) seems a little fixed... or maybe its the experience system works like SotN... the more experience, the less you gain from weak enemies.
maybe this should all be moved to the GBA one though, since doing the NES would be quite boring unless theres something huge to exploit.
sorry... rambling, i know... just observations from me.
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I remember that this effect lasted the whole game, regardless of the strength of the shield.
