Multi-platform games haven't been too much of an issue so far, but does TASvideos have a rule or policy about obsoleting movies from the same game on another console? How would that work?
There are no PS2 TASes right now but would a gamecube TAS obsolete a PS2 TAS because of less lag and faster loading times? How would the TASvideos community go about that?
I believe the rule is that the superior version of the game is preferred. "Superior" would generally be measured in terms of lag frames, loading times, texture quality, etc.
But I suspect that if someone made a new TAS on a non-preferred platform that was significantly faster gameplay-wise (i.e. not just because of platform choice) than an old TAS of the same game on a different platform, there'd be a ton of complaining and arguing, but the TAS would eventually be accepted. That's just my estimation of how the community would react.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Personally I don't really see a reason why we shouldn't consider and accept a game for a different platform as its own independent entry. So what if a similar game with the same name exists for another completely different console? Who cares?
This seems to be yet another case where we are saving space for nothing. It's not like we have a limited number of spots for TASes and we are running out of them and need to be conservative and eliminate seeming "redundancy".
One concrete example I would really love to see is Doom TASes for all the different platforms for which a version of the game has been made. So what if the DOS version is the "principal" one? That would still make eg. the N64 version interesting to see.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Northern California
It's not so much a rule as it is a case-by-case basis. There are cases where we accept multiple ports of the same game, since they're all different enough to warrant publication. Differences can include the addition or removal of glitches, new mechanics, different routes... Basically anything that sets each game apart from its counterparts.
In cases where the games are almost exactly the same in every way, it does generally come down to what Derakon said with us preferring the "superior" port. It ends up being redundant to publish the same TAS multiple times over, so we might as well just leave it to what the audience likes the most.
I don't think we'd be crazy enough to reject a faster run just because it's on a different console, however, just as long as there's more improvement than "less lag frames and shorter loads".
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Piling on with what Samsara said, we have a decent reason to at least sometimes reject a functionally identical run on another console. People are (rightfully) very protective of their work. Creating a high-quality TAS can take years of analyzing game mechanics, glitch-hunting, and even disassembly. We're a pretty friendly community and are open to sharing our findings as we make new discoveries with the understanding that someone won't come along and try to "scoop" the run and make their own before the main authors are done with their own. For the most part, that isn't even something to worry about as a lot of tricks are very technical and whoever is hunting for them should have a sizable head-start.
But it could easily be a problem in multi-platform games. If the Genesis port of an SNES game is virtually identical, there is nothing stopping me from taking all of the tricks found by someone else in the SNES version and making my own Genesis version. I get sole authorship credit despite having discovered nothing. The SNES run's authors can't really do anything about it because they're busy with the SNES run and probably have little interest in duplicating their work on another console.
I don't think any of this is too likely to occur regardless, but I think it's good that we have a cautionary policy in place that effectively says, "Let's take a look at the latest run and make sure it has something new to contribute." I can think of some instances where gameplay mechanics may make two runs on separate consoles both publishable. For example, if I remember correctly, Cool Spot for Genesis allows you to run while shooting whereas the SNES version has fixed shooting, as well as some other differences. Barring these kinds of differences, however, I think the safe thing to do is reject a run on an inferior console, especially when the authorship between the two runs differ.
But it could easily be a problem in multi-platform games. If the Genesis port of an SNES game is virtually identical, there is nothing stopping me from taking all of the tricks found by someone else in the SNES version and making my own Genesis version. I get sole authorship credit despite having discovered nothing. The SNES run's authors can't really do anything about it because they're busy with the SNES run and probably have little interest in duplicating their work on another console.
If I'm understanding correctly, you are painting this kind of scenario: Person A is working on a run of a game for console X (and is posting tricks and WIPs and whatever), and then person B takes the same game for console Y and uses those same tricks, and finishes the run before person A and gets it published first, and without crediting the work of the other person?
I find this both such a highly implausible scenario, and I really don't see how restricting TASes of a game to one single platform fixes this in any way. (How would this restriction stop person B from doing that, and have his game published?)
I really don't see this as any kind of sensible argument against accepting the same game for different platforms as their own independent games with their own independent TASes.
In the case of Doom in particular, the restriction would be really nonsensical because eg. the N64 version is completely different from the DOS version. The levels are completely different. You could just as well consider them separate episodes. It's not like the N64 is identical to the DOS version, just with a lower framerate and resolution or something.
But even with games that do resemble each other, and are pretty much ports of each other, I really don't see the harm. It's not like we will run out of space or something.
And nobody is talking about rejecting movies on different platforms that are different games with the same name.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Northern California
Warp wrote:
In the case of Doom in particular, the restriction would be really nonsensical because eg. the N64 version is completely different from the DOS version. The levels are completely different. You could just as well consider them separate episodes. It's not like the N64 is identical to the DOS version, just with a lower framerate and resolution or something.
That's why there is no restriction in that case. We would definitely publish both simultaneously. Like I said, we don't have a set rule on ports, and most of the time ports are actually different enough to warrant separate publications. I can only remember one situation in the past couple of years where a run was actually rejected for being an inferior port, whereas there was a recent example of a publication that marked the third simultaneously published any% run of SMB2.
But even with games that do resemble each other, and are pretty much ports of each other, I really don't see the harm. It's not like we will run out of space or something.
It's less an issue of "harm" and more an issue of lessening redundancy. If, say, a PS2 port and a GameCube port are almost completely identical, and as such the TASes would look completely identical, there really isn't a solid reason to have both of them published simultaneously. Someone could watch one of the runs and get all of the enjoyment out of watching the other run, making at least one of the runs redundant.
It will be more worth discussing possible changes to this rule once it actually starts coming into play more than once a year or so, if that even ends up happening.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
The best example of a multiplatform game I can think of right now is Goldeneye: 007 on Wii (it's not the n64 game). The game is available on Wii, Xbox 360, and PlayStation 3. I'm currently working on a TAS for the Wii version which is by far the worst version of the game. The Xbox 360 and PS3 versions are superior in just about every way.
But there is one major difference between Wii and Xbox360/PS3. Higher difficulties on Wii require completing extra objectives just like the N64 game did. These extra objectives are completely optional on 360/PS3. Therefore if we ever get to a point where Xbox 360 and PS3 games are fully TASable, Xbox 360 and PS3 should obsolete each other since they are exactly the same game. (The only difference is PS3 has slower loading times so I assume an Xbox 360 TAS would be preferred, but not required.) However the Wii version would be considered separate since the extra objectives are required.
Multiplatform games on older consoles like SNES/Genesis tend to be different in some ways, but the farther along you go in console generations, the closer and closer games get to being exactly the same between consoles. Xenia (Xbox 360 emulator) has been making so much rapid progress and actually runs some games at full speed. Eventually TASers will have to consider not only the fastest ways to beat their desired game, but also which version of the game is superior or which emulator happens to be superior at the time. But I agree that it should be a case-by-case scenario with the judges on accepting movies from multi-platform games.
Because these are all different. The NES version is a more-or-less faithful port of the Apple II original, within system limitations, e.g. the jump physics are slightly different and two of the boss fights are missing. The Sega version has wildly different fight physics and throws in four more levels. The SNES version has numerous extra levels with special objects, as well as extra boss fights. Personally I would love to also see a MS-Dos or a GBC run of this game to see how different all these games are.
I'm frankly surprised that we only have one run so far of arcade classic Bubble Bobble, which has also been ported to all and sundry, and plays differently on most platforms.
