We are considering (though it is absolutely not final yet) accepting it regardless, mostly under the condition that Dolphin TASes are technically always done on interim builds anyway. This would be something the Judges and Admins would have to talk about further, but I would say that it shouldn't stop the submission in case we do come to the conclusion that we can accept Dolphin builds like these.
Us Dolphin developers do actually treat the development builds as official releases – they just aren't labeled stable. Both TASers and other users are encouraged to use them, and their binaries and source code will be kept available just like with the stable releases. I would argue that "interim builds" when it comes to Dolphin nowadays are PR builds. Those are preserved badly and can often have problems because they're still in development.
Regardless, one way to avoid the problem with the official release rule could be to accepting Dolphin Zelda Edition as a separate TASable emulator. It's a proper fork of Dolphin, not just something like a WIP build for a new feature. The run would then count as being done on an official version of that emulator.
My concerns aren't about the Dolphin build itself, but with the verifiability of the TAS. Normally, verifying that a TAS isn't using technical measures to cheat can be done by checking that it syncs in a standard emulator without using any ROM hacks, unverified save data or e.g. questionable emulator settings. That isn't the case with this run. If you want to verify that GBA commands aren't sent in a questionable way, you would essentially have to do it SDA-style, having someone who's knowledgeable about the game look through the run for any potential cheating. I suppose that could set a bad precedent and make accepting the run harder because of the extra verification work needed. It's up to the site staff to decide if that's an acceptable tradeoff, so I'm not going to say that this run should or shouldn't be rejected for the GBA implementation.
Weatherton wrote:
Here's something to consider. Since the game receives GBA commands via the controller port, it's actually not necessary for the player to use a GBA to send the commands. The player could provide these commands through the controller port through other means (e.g. TASLink). We allow this for Super Mario World total control TAS. The game being TASed here is Wind Waker on GameCube. The GBA hardware is not strictly required from my perspective. Perhaps strict GBA emulation could be a separate branch though if this assumption really breaks things.
That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered before. In my opinion, the GBA counts as part of the hardware that runs Wind Waker because the game uploads a part of its code to the GBA, but what you say makes sense too.
I feel like there is no harm in submitting the run, just so that we can have this discussion about bending the site rules in the run's own forum thread and have an eventual decision. I recall similar situations from the past (abeshi's OoT, my SMB PAL run, etc)
From the problems listed, the waiting on the name entry actually worries me the most. A TAS shouldn't sit on a screen for many seconds for no reason. A "mistake" like that shouldn't slip through, it's very avoidable too, so I'm not sure why it happened. Was it not clear to Trog that TASvideos runs are timed from power-on?
Speed/entertainment tradeoff. As long as it's not overly long (like, a couple minutes or so), it's okay.
Definitely not. He is just spelling his name out. Like 20 frames wasted maybe. So that should be absolutely fine then :P
All it has to do is sync for an encoder or publisher. If one of them can get it to sync, then it won't be a problem (unless it completely fails to sync during the dumping process).
That is good to know. I'm sure someone out there will be able to sync it (I hope lol)
This is akin to the Sonic camhack encodes. As long as it syncs without the hack, it's absolutely fine.
Cool, I know for sure it does
We are considering (though it is absolutely not final yet) accepting it regardless, mostly under the condition that Dolphin TASes are technically always done on interim builds anyway. This would be something the Judges and Admins would have to talk about further, but I would say that it shouldn't stop the submission in case we do come to the conclusion that we can accept Dolphin builds like these.
Case in point, I would absolutely recommend he submits it. The worst that would happen is an extremely respectful rejection for a reason that might even be overturned or redacted later, allowing the movie to still be published. Either it doesn't sync for a publisher or we decide at the moment that we can't accept the Dolphin build: I feel like someone, probably Fog or RGamma, will get it to fully sync, and I also have the feeling that our audience will want to see the movie published even if it means a slight breach of the rules (which a couple of the staff are already slowly getting on board with anyway).
I will let him know. I guess trying doesn't hurt at the end of the day
Hey just curious, but iirc, there's a bunch of interface's for the Tingle Turner on the GBA itself. With that said, it takes time to navigate through. Example
Link to video
With that said, I haven't seen the TAS yet, but does it take account into the time to activate commands on a real GBA? Because otherwise the TAS would be quite different than using a real GBA which is limited on said actions.
Here's something to consider. Since the game receives GBA commands via the controller port, it's actually not necessary for the player to use a GBA to send the commands. The player could provide these commands through the controller port through other means (e.g. TASLink). We allow this for Super Mario World total control TAS. The game being TASed here is Wind Waker on GameCube. The GBA hardware is not strictly required from my perspective. Perhaps strict GBA emulation could be a separate branch though if this assumption really breaks things.
I guess this is a fair point. You could technically build some hardware, hook it up to the controller port and you would have an identical experience to the current tuner build. It's still breaking the design of the tuner shop somewhat, but at the end of the day the commands are valid and the game accepts them. Fortunately most things are implemented on the game side, for example you can't buy the floating ability in a few rooms because it would break puzzles, so they are flagged to not be available in the tuner shop while you are in such a room. If you try to send a command to the game to activate it anyway, it still won't work, because the game has an additional check to make sure the command is allowed for the current location.
JosJuice wrote:
My concerns aren't about the Dolphin build itself, but with the verifiability of the TAS. Normally, verifying that a TAS isn't using technical measures to cheat can be done by checking that it syncs in a standard emulator without using any ROM hacks, unverified save data or e.g. questionable emulator settings. That isn't the case with this run. If you want to verify that GBA commands aren't sent in a questionable way, you would essentially have to do it SDA-style, having someone who's knowledgeable about the game look through the run for any potential cheating. I suppose that could set a bad precedent and make accepting the run harder because of the extra verification work needed. It's up to the site staff to decide if that's an acceptable tradeoff, so I'm not going to say that this run should or shouldn't be rejected for the GBA implementation.
This concern is quite fair too, if you want to be sure you need to watch the entire run. Most of it was livestreamed and we can all vouch for it. But at the end of the day someone here needs to decide if is fine or not. I guess the one saving grace is that this case is extremely unique and likely won't occur pretty often. So it's unlikely an approval could be interpreted as a sign of lax ruling with people coming out left and right trying to submit movies done on questionable emulator versions. Making the Zelda Edition specifically official would help matters in this regard somewhat I suppose. It's a pretty good build in general for TASing games and the source is there for everyone to check. Maybe I need to rename it soon :P
MUGG wrote:
From the problems listed, the waiting on the name entry actually worries me the most. A TAS shouldn't sit on a screen for many seconds for no reason. A "mistake" like that shouldn't slip through, it's very avoidable too, so I'm not sure why it happened. Was it not clear to Trog that TASvideos runs are timed from power-on?
When I coded the fake tuner I discussed it with Trog and we both arrived at the conclusion that it wouldn't stand a chance to get a pass here. So the TAS was started on the assumption that only RTA time would matter and everything before file start doesn't need to be optimal. I just talked to him again though and the only thing he did was to spell his name out, so 20 frames wasted or so seems fine.
I'm quite pleasantly surprised actually that people want to see this Movie featured even if it might stretch the rules a bit. Some common assumptions about this site today are sadly quite untrue as it turns out. Most people I know including myself thought there wouldn't really be any exceptions made and that a movie has to sync for everyone etc. I have no problem with strict rules, but it's good to see special cases are being recognized.
When I coded the fake tuner I discussed it with Trog and we both arrived at the conclusion that it wouldn't stand a chance to get a pass here. So the TAS was started on the assumption that only RTA time would matter and everything before file start doesn't need to be optimal. I just talked to him again though and the only thing he did was to spell his name out, so 20 frames wasted or so seems fine.
I'm quite pleasantly surprised actually that people want to see this Movie featured even if it might stretch the rules a bit. Some common assumptions about this site today are sadly quite untrue as it turns out. Most people I know including myself thought there wouldn't really be any exceptions made and that a movie has to sync for everyone etc. I have no problem with strict rules, but it's good to see special cases are being recognized.
Yeah, Trog has said from time to time he doesn't mind whether it be featured on the site, or not featured on the site. I mean, we've had Custom Lua builds of Dolphin used by myself, Abahbob and a few others maybe. And IIRC no one really minded if we used them (from what I saw anyway). This was back when I started TASing and was extremely interested in TWW and all the TASing stuff so times could've changed since I last logged on here, I dunno.
Either way, Trog's happy with it and I assume most of his viewers from his streams are happy with it from seeing the amount of effort and optimization he's put into it.
And I'm sure Based dragonbane is extremely happy with everything he's done to help out. Keepo b love ya db <3
I talked with Trog now and he will submit his TAS here after the livestream reveal and uploading the TAS to his YouTube. The showcase of the TAS with commentary will happen in 2 weeks, so it should happen rather fast. Then you guys can discuss it out :D
jlun2 wrote:
With that said, I haven't seen the TAS yet, but does it take account into the time to activate commands on a real GBA? Because otherwise the TAS would be quite different than using a real GBA which is limited on said actions.
The code of the build would technically allow you to do things in TAS that aren't doable at all on a real console with a real GBA e.g. buy the floating ability twice with only a 3 second gap between instead of the ~15 found on a real console. That said, this specific TAS never abuses this or similar things and it's very transparent to check for since the game usually makes a sound when a tuner command is used. Trog routed this on a real console/Dolphin connected to a GBA emulator and made sure all tricks are doable in the exact same way. When Trog uses a tuner ability in the final TAS, he made sure that enough time has passed beforehand so that the shop could have been navigated and the ability activated on the exact same frame on a real console. The shop can always be navigated and an ability started as long as you are not inside a loading zone fortunately, so there are not many edge cases anyway in the current TAS route where it becomes close. One time where he could have activated an ability earlier than a real console, he ensured that he waited long enough so it was no longer an issue.
You can't ask everyone to have blind faith of course, as trustworthy as this runner is, so a judge familiar with the game or tuner would need to watch the Movie and at least check for basic irregularities I would say
Definitely not. He is just spelling his name out. Like 20 frames wasted maybe. So that should be absolutely fine then :P
A long time ago that was actually standard with Zelda TASes. It fell out of style when the runs got a lot more tightly optimised, but I think it's still considered an acceptable tradeoff.
Though I would assume that it's like any other Zelda and every time the name is said it costs time, not just at the creation, since more characters need to be drawn.
dragonbane wrote:
I talked with Trog now and he will submit his TAS here after the livestream reveal and uploading the TAS to his YouTube. The showcase of the TAS with commentary will happen in 2 weeks, so it should happen rather fast. Then you guys can discuss it out :D
He might want to talk to one of the encoders here though. They can make increadibly high quality video and somebody is probably going to be interested in making such a high profile encode.
A long time ago that was actually standard with Zelda TASes. It fell out of style when the runs got a lot more tightly optimised, but I think it's still considered an acceptable tradeoff.
Though I would assume that it's like any other Zelda and every time the name is said it costs time, not just at the creation, since more characters need to be drawn.
TWW has quick and slow text actually. Quick text you can always skip in 1 frame regardless of length. Trog ensured that Link's name doesn't ever come up in slow text in the TAS route at least, so name length only wastes time before starting a new file
Now it's up to him whether he decides to submit it here.
He will. Once he has finished his scripted commentary track. I'm already trying to sync his DTM with Fog, some hardware variations in playback emulation are currently giving us a bit of a hardtime, but we should be able to figure it out :)
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Skilled player
(1048)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
I just finished watching; Trog, great job! I was most entertained.
I am in agreement that this should be submitted to the site even if there is a chance that it can't be accepted under existing site rules, although I think there's enough precedent here that all of the concerns raised are manageable. I fully agree with Weatherton; at the end of the day, a TASLink or similar GB capable board could easily press the correct button presses at the correct time to provide input without actually being a GBA, so this is a non-issue. Here's hoping someone else can get this to sync, though!
I just finished watching; Trog, great job! I was most entertained.
I am in agreement that this should be submitted to the site even if there is a chance that it can't be accepted under existing site rules, although I think there's enough precedent here that all of the concerns raised are manageable. I fully agree with Weatherton; at the end of the day, a TASLink or similar GB capable board could easily press the correct button presses at the correct time to provide input without actually being a GBA, so this is a non-issue. Here's hoping someone else can get this to sync, though!
If that's the case, is there any point in delaying the tingle turner to make it possible using an actual GBA? I'm referring to this.
Should the limit be there or nah send whatever, whenever? Not sure about other games since I'm not sure if other gamecube games ever used the GBA cable like this (as in it helps in a speedrun).
:o
I can't really tell from the video what happened but I guess it's Aim Super Slide? Very cool stuff, can't wait for some any% streams. *looks at gymnast*
Now the guy who offered $1000 has to pay. lol
Well, no, he doesn't have to pay (and I'd expect he wasn't going to, judging from the fact he wrote Kappa after his offer). Bounties aren't legally binding. Mothrayas and Nach put a good legal disclaimer on the bounty page recently. If you feel like discussing this matter, do it here.
I feel like it's kinda silly to argue about minor things making a TAS ineligible - if someone can confirm that the gameplay is legitimate I don't see why the final product can't be accepted.
Great TAS - two of the best games received huge TAS's very shortly away from each other, haha.
The only sticking point of the Wind Waker TAS is the use of a patch which makes it possible to see when doing door storage. This seems to cause desyncs at about 50k frames without it (the only major place where door storage is used).
The only sticking point of the Wind Waker TAS is the use of a patch which makes it possible to see when doing door storage. This seems to cause desyncs at about 50k frames without it (the only major place where door storage is used).
Just to make sure, not the kind of desync that can be fixed by adding or removing frames?
