I would prefer a more robust category than just "glitchless" as the third category though, something like "glitchless 100%" or whatever the equivalent would be for this game, so it would actually have some significant difference.
Wha? The least-broken category follows the same rules as the currently published movie, which has a 9.1 overall rating. And I'm going to submit it in about a week. Then the new, third-category movie that uses all of the minor gamebreaking glitches is going to be significantly different from this movie. Way shorter than the 43 minutes we were talking about earlier. The route will be totally different.
given the glitches outlined, you'll be able to skip thunderbird, which allows you to skip thunder and old kasuto, which allows you to skip new kasuto for one thing. or is that three things?
you will probably have to get jump though
I like where this is going. A category inbetween the two currently published movies that use all glitches except L+R sounds very promising. Labelling it "all crystals" and listing the heavily game-breaking L+R/scrollock glitch(es) as not allowed has precedence acceptance with eg the OOT "all dungeons" run.
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Arc wrote:
Wha? The least-broken category follows the same rules as the currently published movie, which has a 9.1 overall rating. And I'm going to submit it in about a week. Then the new, third-category movie that uses all of the minor gamebreaking glitches is going to be significantly different from this movie. Way shorter than the 43 minutes we were talking about earlier. The route will be totally different.
But is the end goal different? Or are the same things being done, just with a different route/glitches? If we simplify the categories down to what they achieve, this is what we'd end up getting as far as I can tell:
1. "any% using extremely game-breaking glitches"
2. "any% using somewhat game-breaking glitches" (new "all crystals")
3. "any% using minorly game-breaking glitches" ("least-broken category")
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but given all the information I've gathered in this thread so far, this is how I'm seeing it right now. As far as I'm concerned, one of the latter two needs a different goal. We've discussed this with the recent Wonderboy controversy: Routes are not categories. If two runs achieve the same goal with different routes/glitches, then they're competing, not cooperating.
I suggested 100% because not only is it a guaranteed acceptable category based on site rules, but it would also actually show off some significant extra portions of the game. A 100% run with the new glitches would be an insane watch, a worthy addition to the site alongside the other runs, and safe to submit and accept. Even if it was reversed, with a glitchless 100% and a more glitched "all crystals" run, it would still work really well with content and variety.
Again, if I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Routes are not categories. If two runs achieve the same goal with different routes/glitches, then they're competing, not cooperating.
The goal is not to complete the game with a different route. The different route is a consequence of having a different goal. The current branch, with a 12-year lineage, has always had the goal of completing the game without using out-of-bounds/warping. Glitch Town and the fairy glitch have been known for a long time, yet no one ever said that this branch was suboptimal for not using them. Nothing has changed; they aren't suddenly a part of this branch.
A Link to the Past has two separate movies, and they are the exact same scenario that we are dealing with here. One has an out-of-bounds/warp glitch that completes the game in 2 minutes, and the other movie has the goal of not using out-of-bounds (and takes 76 minutes). It is not a mere "route difference." The 76-minute movie is not competing with the 2-minute movie.
And how is the new Zelda II branch metaphysically different than the difference between the already existing and accepted no-OOB branch (45 min) and extremely broken scroll-lock branch (5 min)? Why doesn't the extremely broken version obsolete the long one? It shouldn't, and neither should the middle-ground branch.
I think we've just been overlooking the "OOB but no scroll lock" branch all this time, and the discovery of the encounter glitch sparked the realization of what a potentially awesome movie it would be. I'm excited about it.
Also, the way "routes are not categories" is phrased has some dire consequences. Doesn't that mean a "warps" run of Super Mario 1/2/3 obsoletes a warpless version? And I really need the existence of Super Metroid "reverse boss order" justified, then.
Reverse Boss Order is easy. "My goal is to show that the game is glitchy enough that the bosses can be defeated in reverse order from what the developers intended."
What's happening here in the Zelda 2 thread is that, instead of finding a goal that would showcase the glitches/lack of glitches, you're trying to shoehorn the (lack of) glitches into goal choices that they don't belong in.
I say we take a breath and think for a moment. Rather than ask "what glitches are/aren't allowed", let's look at the goals instead and ask "what glitches are most useful and entertaining to watch in pursuit of this goal?"
1) Any%
2) All Crystals
3) 100% (all crystals, magic containers, heart containers, spells... what all goes into 100%, anyway?)
I would ask about glitchless, but isn't that what the one you're working on now is?
I say we take a breath and think for a moment. Rather than ask "what glitches are/aren't allowed", let's look at the goals instead and ask "what glitches are most useful and entertaining to watch in pursuit of this goal?"
1) Any%
2) All Crystals
3) 100% (all crystals, magic containers, heart containers, spells... what all goes into 100%, anyway?)
most useful?
1) l+r and scroll lock
2) l+r and scroll lock
3) l+r and scroll lock (all crystals, magic/heart containers, spells, items and up/downstab)
Just a proposal here, but maybe a good way to lay out the categories would be like this:
Any% (this would be the current glitched movie)
Any% NMG (this yet unmade movie with L+R and scroll lock disallowed)
Any% NMG no Wrong Warps (this would fit Arc's current WIP)
Movies for 100% or 100% all keys may be worth considering, but may not be much more interesting than the three above. May be easier to have that argument later if someone tries to submit one.
If you use scroll lock without l+r and you require all crystals, you probably only use scroll lock for palace 7 anyway. I'd prefer encounter skips in the run under production, but all crystals, no l+r works well too for something down the line.
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Arc wrote:
The goal is not to complete the game with a different route. The different route is a consequence of having a different goal. The current branch, with a 12-year lineage, has always had the goal of completing the game without using out-of-bounds/warping. Glitch Town and the fairy glitch have been known for a long time, yet no one ever said that this branch was suboptimal for not using them. Nothing has changed; they aren't suddenly a part of this branch.
"The goal is not to complete the game with a different route."
"...the goal of completing the game without using out-of-bounds/warping"
That's completing the game with a different route.
A Link to the Past has two separate movies, and they are the exact same scenario that we are dealing with here. One has an out-of-bounds/warp glitch that completes the game in 2 minutes, and the other movie has the goal of not using out-of-bounds (and takes 76 minutes). It is not a mere "route difference." The 76-minute movie is not competing with the 2-minute movie.
No, this is the "warp glitch" and "no warp glitch" scenario we're dealing with. Both of those runs are perfectly acceptable, because one skips damn near the entire game with a severe glitch and the other just plays the game "normally" using minor glitches.
And how is the new Zelda II branch metaphysically different than the difference between the already existing and accepted no-OOB branch (45 min) and extremely broken scroll-lock branch (5 min)? Why doesn't the extremely broken version obsolete the long one? It shouldn't, and neither should the middle-ground branch.
That was not my argument at all, but thanks for misinterpreting it anyway. At no point have I ever said that the warp glitch run should obsolete any other run. I'm saying that this new category is literally just the no-OOB run with a different route and glitches.
To have an acceptable middle ground, the "least broken" run can't already be in the middle ground in and of itself. It uses glitches. It's a glitched run. This new run is going to be a glitched run as well, just with more glitches. Is there a point to having a heavily glitched run, a somewhat glitched run, and a minorly glitched run? No. Not at all. Is there a point to having a heavily glitched run, a slightly glitched run, and a completely glitchless run? Yes, absolutely.
Also, the way "routes are not categories" is phrased has some dire consequences. Doesn't that mean a "warps" run of Super Mario 1/2/3 obsoletes a warpless version? And I really need the existence of Super Metroid "reverse boss order" justified, then.
"warps" and "warpless" are entirely different goals. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that. "reverse boss order" is also an entirely different goal that shows off a significant amount of things you wouldn't normally see in a Super Metroid TAS, so it's perfectly acceptable. What you're arguing for is "any% no wrong warps" and "any% no wrong warps but slower and less glitchy".
The goal of a "warps" run is to complete the game as fast as possible under any circumstances by skipping huge chunks of it. The goal of a "warpless" run is to complete a larger chunk of the game as fast as possible without skipping huge chunks of it. The goal of a "100%" run is to complete everything in the game as fast as possible. The goal of "reverse boss order" is to defeat the bosses in the opposite of the intended order. Those are actual separate goals, those runs can all coexist just fine.
What is the goal of the 45 minute run? What is the goal of the new glitched run? Are they actually different enough to warrant separate publications? And no, "complete the game with more/less glitches" isn't an acceptable goal here. We already have that for the warp glitch run and the 45 minute run. It can't be used again.
link_7777 wrote:
Just a proposal here, but maybe a good way to lay out the categories would be like this:
Any% (this would be the current glitched movie)
Any% NMG (this yet unmade movie with L+R and scroll lock disallowed)
Any% NMG no Wrong Warps (this would fit Arc's current WIP)
Movies for 100% or 100% all keys may be worth considering, but may not be much more interesting than the three above. May be easier to have that argument later if someone tries to submit one.
That's exactly what Arc's arguing, isn't it? Where the latter two runs have the exact same goal but different glitches?
A movie for 100% would be perfectly acceptable. 100% under the same conditions as the 45 minute run wouldn't be that much longer and it would retain a lot of the same entertainment value. 100% under the new glitched conditions would show off said glitches and would be a weird, insane watch to see how broken the game can be even without the OOB L+R scroll lock madness. Both of these runs are perfectly safe and acceptable.
We can't have any% three times. Twice is fine for warps and warpless, but three is just completely arbitrary.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
No, this is the "warp glitch" and "no warp glitch" scenario we're dealing with.
Exactly what we're dealing with here.
Samsara wrote:
"warps" and "warpless" are entirely different goals. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.
Nothing. It's what I'm arguing for. You don't seem to understand that.
Samsara wrote:
What you're arguing for is "any% no wrong warps" and "any% no wrong warps but slower and less glitchy".
Nope. Arguing for Warpless vs. Warps vs. Warps & Barrier Skip.
Samsara wrote:
What is the goal of the 45 minute run?
Warpless.
Samsara wrote:
What is the goal of the new glitched run?
Warps.
Samsara wrote:
Are they actually different enough to warrant separate publications?
I already stated that they are vastly different.
Samsara wrote:
Both of those runs are perfectly acceptable, because one skips damn near the entire game with a severe glitch and the other just plays the game "normally" using minor glitches.
Yep, that's why there's the Warps & Barrier Skip branch in addition to Warpless and Warps.
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Arc wrote:
Samsara wrote:
No, this is the "warp glitch" and "no warp glitch" scenario we're dealing with.
Exactly what we're dealing with here.
So you want the new glitched run to be rejected for being slower and using less warps than the current warp glitch run, okay.
Arc wrote:
Samsara wrote:
What you're arguing for is "any% no wrong warps" and "any% no wrong warps but slower and less glitchy".
Nope. Arguing for Warpless vs. Warps vs. Warps & Barrier Skip.
Warpless vs Warps vs Warps with a faster route, okay.
Arc wrote:
Samsara wrote:
What is the goal of the 45 minute run?
Warpless.
Samsara wrote:
What is the goal of the new glitched run?
Warps.
So the new glitched run is competing with the current warp glitch run, then, which means it will get rejected for not using all available skips. I mean, okay.
Arc wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Both of those runs are perfectly acceptable, because one skips damn near the entire game with a severe glitch and the other just plays the game "normally" using minor glitches.
Yep, that's why there's the Warps & Barrier Skip branch in addition to Warpless and Warps.
This isn't a "game end glitch", "warps" and "warpless" situation. This is "warps", "warpless", and "warps but slower and with less warps" now. In defending the goal of the run, you're just comparing it to a different run, and now the goals match there as well. I could just copy-paste any of my posts and replace all mentions of the 45 minute run with the warp glitch run and everything would still hold up.
SMB3 has "game end glitch", "warps" and "warpless", and that's perfectly acceptable. One skips the entire game using unintentional means, one skips the game using intentional means, and one doesn't skip the game. That's absolutely fine.
Z2, under this proposed plan, is going to be like this: One run skips the entire game using unintentional means, one run skips parts of the game using unintentional means, and the last run doesn't skip the game. This would be like us accepting an SMB3 run that uses ACE to skip to the final level instead of straight to the credits. It's arbitrarily excluding glitches that could be used to achieve your goal faster.
I just don't get why 100% isn't even being remotely considered. With this setup...
1. "warp glitch" with L+R and scroll lock and OOB
2. "warpless" under the same conditions it's in right now
3. "100%" with the new glitches and sequence breaks and such
...I really think that's the best possible solution to showcase everything possible in an entertaining way. There's no worrying about categories or routes with that. It's pretty much pre-accepted. There'd be tons of variety in each run that would make watching all 3 completely worth your time.
Why is this apparently such a bad solution?
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
...I really think that's the best possible solution to showcase everything possible in an entertaining way. There's no worrying about categories or routes with that. It's pretty much pre-accepted. There'd be tons of variety in each run that would make watching all 3 completely worth your time.
Why is this apparently such a bad solution?
Because the whole time you've been pushing your personal desire to see a 100% run, now to the point of coercively and unilaterally using your judging power to reject a valid category to make a 100% run happen. I have no problem with a 100% movie as a 4th branch.
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Arc, I respect your work and contributions, but that's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever been accused of in my time on this site.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
100% some major glitches makes about as much sense to me as any% some major glitches. I mean, I get differentiating a some major glitches run. But on the face of it, it sounds like the same run, only you don't get to use the glitches to actually skip anything. Besides Thunderbird, I suppose.
Gonna have to say I agree with Samsara. It sounds really weird to allow some warp glitches but not others, so unless the run can stand on its own merits as being especially entertaining (i.e. is a Moons run) the rules for the run would likely be considered too arbitrary for the run to be published.
I mean, don't let that stop you from making the run if you really believe in it, but it'd be an uphill battle to get it published.
This is completely ignoring any hypothetical 100% run, mind you. Just looking at two different glitched runs and trying to figure out a way to differentiate them that isn't arbitrary.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
A) Skip an Encounter with wandering fairy
B) Skip an Encounter with screen edge glitch
Either way, the amount of content skipped is one encounter, for one instance of when the trick is used.
There are multiple instances where we can use the wrong edge exit where the wandering fairy or monster won't let us viably skip the encounter. So, more instances of content is skipped.
The result of the run minus this wrong edge exit will be around 45 minutes. How many seconds and minutes of differing content will we see as a result of the wrong edge exit?
Okay, a few minutes will be subtracted. We can count that as differing content. How much will this impact the route? If you have to kill an extra enemy you didn't on another screen, that is probably a second or three of differing content. If you have to go down a different route for a segment, that might be a minute or two.
Will you get to 20+ minutes of differing content, a large portion of the existing run's time? If not, I doubt judges will accept omission and inclusion of this glitch alone for separate categories.
I want it in terms of differing content. While I will agree that there may be other sorts of viable reasons outside of this scope, my focus, right here and right now, is in that scope, and I do not wish to hear anything outside of it. Declaring something as a "warp" or "not warp" is actually outside this scope.
Please, I ask that the argument stays within this scope I have outlined, and hope that the thoughts I inject to this discussion gets us to a conclusion more smoothly.
OK then. As a very rough estimate, inclusion or exclusion of just this glitch should be a difference of ~2 minutes, depending on which route through maze island is best and how the overworld spawns overall pan out. The overworld path overall is minimally affected, besides the area around P4. The kill route is affected for P4 and P6.
However, it is worth noting that Arc wasn't suggesting a new category with the difference being just this glitch.
If you'd like that in terms of differing content, I'm afraid it gets a bit more complex.
Healer Glitch but no scroll lock cuts ~4 minutes from the run and affects the leveling route, with the loss of 100-some XP in the early game.
I haven't thought about how adding only fairy fall will affect almost the entirety of the game, but the skips I can think of off the top of my head after P5 (Kasuto, New Kasuto + Thunderbird) are around about 3 minutes worth. There are opportunities earlier on to use it in the various palaces, but I can't even really guess what the saving would be overall. e: i forgot, this likely requires taking the jump spell, which adds 1 minute back into the run.
As a side effect of fairy fall, another minute is cut if you can efficiently get to level 6 magic. This allows you to skip an extra magic container, probably the one in death mountain. Also, it means a fundamentally different leveling strategy.
We're getting close to 10 9 minutes, only glossing over more obvious applications, without looking at the fine details and routing it all out precisely. Hopefully it gives you a better idea of what's on the table.
Thanks. That is more like what I want to see. An estimate of how much will be different is good to see. And thanks for reminding me it isn't a difference involving exactly one glitch.
I recall mention of the swordless challenge of the original Legend of Zelda, which is a difference of time of around 2 1/2 minutes from any%. But no one can deny the difference in content being major chunks of the run. Mainly, I'm less looking for difference in time, but rather content.
Anyway, I hope to see a decision made and that there's no discouragement to produce an update to the published TAS. I didn't like what was happening in the discussion, so I made a post. If I helped clear anything up, great. If we're still in exactly the same spot, I can only say I made an attempt.
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We had a discussion on IRC earlier and something dawned on me:
"warp glitch" - L+R, scroll lock, OOB shenanigans
"any%" - encounter skip, major glitches/skips, but no OOB
"warpless" - same conditions as the published 45 minute run
This naming convention actually makes sense, not the weird "all crystals" "all crystals no major glitches" "all crystals except Billy" stuff that was being thrown about before. I still don't necessarily agree that the encounter skip run should be a new category, but at the very least I now understand what's being considered/suggested. This is acceptable assuming the audience takes the new run well when it's submitted.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Inzult outlined the idea very well.
For easy reference:
-L+R = superspeed.
-Scroll lock = both a way to wrong warp to the Great Palace and a way to bypass the entrance barrier, so none of the dungeons/crystals are necessary. (5 minute movie.)
-Encounter skip = a wrong warp to skip all forced encounter tiles.
-Healer glitch/Glitch Town = a wrong warp to King's Tomb so you can take the backdoor route to the hammer.
-Out-of-bounds/Fairy glitch = wrong warping out the top of the screen, which is most useful to skip Thunderbird. No Thunderbird also means you can skip Thunder and some magic containers.
So the fairy glitch is the root of the problem? That would be the most creatively rich part and would create the most differences. Without it, I think you have a much less interesting movie. I don't see a reason against using it. As Inzult noted, without it, you have a movie that's maybe 39 minutes and more similar to the 45-minute warpless run. With the fairy glitch, it's more like 36 minutes and changes more things, requiring new research and creativity. Maybe we'd discover something new and get it down to the low-30s.
I'm in the Great Palace in the warpless movie. I will finish and submit it soon.
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Thanks for the reference, that cleared things up for me.
Fairy glitch is okay for the new run. I'm just mixed up with so many category suggestions and "no OOB" played into about three of them, so I figured it was only part of L+R/scroll lock.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
I'm forming initial ideas for the new branch, which we will call plain old "any%" here at TASVideos, in contrast to the current "warpless" and "warp glitch" branches. (Speedrun.com calls this branch "any% no scroll-lock.")
It seems fairly uncontroversial to start with Trophy, Jump, Up+A. Jump seems necessary for Thunderbird skip. I tried to damage boost off a bubble but it doesn't get high enough.
Is there already a complete list of the Glitch Town right exits? Because there are many Glitch Towns. The ones I know so far:
-Healer glitch in Rauru warps to King's Tomb, allowing backdoor Hammer.
-Healer/magic glitch in Mido warps to Bagu.
-Fairy glitch in Darunia takes you into the ocean, useless.
-Healer/magic glitch in Ruto takes you into the mountains, useless.
The area that especially needs research is fairy glitching in palaces. We need to figure out the travel route before getting into experience plans.
Inzult wrote:
As a side effect of fairy fall, another minute is cut if you can efficiently get to level 6 magic. This allows you to skip an extra magic container, probably the one in death mountain. Also, it means a fundamentally different leveling strategy.
Does this comment refer to going through Maze Palace with 6 magic containers at Magic-6? I think that using death could possibly cut it down to 5 containers. How much time is lost getting each container:
6000 frames for Kasuto container (approximate)
2880 frames for Death Mountain container
1561 frames for Cave container
850 frames for Maze container (approximate)
If we can get to Magic-3 (400 XP total) before Parapa, I think it's possible to get through the first 3 palaces with only 4 magic containers (64 MP while Fairy costs 60). Perhaps then we could pick up only the Maze container. That would give 80 MP, which, at Magic-5, would allow casting either 2x Fairy or Fairy & Reflect in the Maze. I think that 3 or 4 deaths would still be faster than getting the Cave container. I'm not sure whether it's actually possible to make the route work though. In this run, we might need to go straight for Magic levels, like 1-5-1, and then start boosting Attack at the Maze crystal.
Is there already a complete list of the Glitch Town right exits? Because there are many Glitch Towns.
Rauru -> King's Tomb
Ruto -> Mountains
Saria -> South Saria
Mido -> King's Tomb
I'm pretty sure all towns in east hyrule lead to the ocean. It's been a long, long time since I looked at the East, though.
Arc wrote:
The area that especially needs research is fairy glitching in palaces. We need to figure out the travel route before getting into experience plans.
Just glancing at the maps, here, there's not tons of places to look;
P1 has nothing
P2 only has the block room, which will take you to the entrance of P1
P3 has the block room, which should take you back to the entrance, and the elevator room, with the stalfos knight, which should basically just be able to skip the elevator.
P4 looks interesting. It looks like you can get on some ceiling and take some non-exits where I can't guess where they might go.
P5 has the block room, I'm not sure you could use it for anything
P6 Maybe you can skip a couple of rooms, but certainly the ra/block room, after the fall if your magic is high enough
Arc wrote:
Inzult wrote:
As a side effect of fairy fall, another minute is cut if you can efficiently get to level 6 magic. This allows you to skip an extra magic container, probably the one in death mountain. Also, it means a fundamentally different leveling strategy.
Does this comment refer to going through Maze Palace with 6 magic containers at Magic-6? I think that using death could possibly cut it down to 5 containers. How much time is lost getting each container:
I was referring to the T-Bird skip, you need to cast Jump, then fairy twice with perhaps only an opportunity for a blue jar. I tend to look at the end state and work backwards. A good finish needs ?-6-1.
