Posted: 9/15/2016 6:56 PM
Post subject: [Research] Super Bomberman 5 and the Shortest Road to 100%
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JoLiKMC
Joined: 11/20/2004
Posts: 236
Location: United States
Warning: This post is very lengthy. Please bear this in mind when quoting the post in replies. The frustration you spare may be your own! Alright, so... I've been on a bit of a Super Bomberman 5 kick lately. As such, I've been going through various map sources to try and figure out how to make a 100% run as streamlined as possible. I think I might have it... but I'm not complete sure. Either way, I figured I'd post my findings here for all to peruse and discuss. First and foremost, have a data map of the levels. (And my text chart, just for good measure:) 
ZONE    POSSIBLE EXITS          ZONE    POSSIBLE EXITS
1-01     - 05, 02, 07           2-01     - 02, 03
1-02    - 03, 01                2-02    - 04, 07
1-03    - 04                    2-03    - 07
1-04    - 06, 09                2-04    - BA
1-05    - 04, 06, 08            2-05    - 03, 06
1-06    - 04, 08, 10, 12        2-06    - 10, 08, 07
1-07    - 08                    2-07    - BA, 08, BB
1-08    - 06, 14, 13, 12, 15    2-08    - BB, 07, BA
1-09    - 11, AA, 10            2-09    - 06, 10
1-10    - 09, AB                2-10    - 06, 08, 11
1-11    - 09, AA, XA            2-11    - XB, BB
1-12    - AB, 13                2-12    - 10, 13, 14
1-13    - 12, AC                2-13    - 11, 14
1-14    - 08, 15                2-14    - 13, 11, 15
1-15    - AC                    2-15    - CA, 11
--------                        --------
1-AA    - 01, 05                2-BA    - 02, 03, 04
1-AB    - 09, 12                2-BB    - 04, 05
1-AC    - 12                    2-CA    - 01
1-XA    - 02                    2-XB    - 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZONE    POSSIBLE EXITS          ZONE    POSSIBLE EXITS
3-01    - 06                    4-01    - 08, 02
3-02    - 07, 08                4-02    - 01, 09
3-03    - 08                    4-03    - 09, 11, 10
3-04    - 08, 09                4-04    - 11
3-05    - 09, 10                4-05    - 12, 13
3-06    - 13, 14, 15            4-06    - 13, 07, 14, 15
3-07    - XC, 11                4-07    - 06, 15
3-08    - 09, 11                4-08    - FA
3-09    - 08, 11, 12            4-09    - FA
3-10    - 12, 13                4-10    - FA, 11
3-11    - DA                    4-11    - 10, GA
3-12    - EA, 13                4-12    - GA
3-13    - EB, 12                4-13    - GA, 14
3-14    - EB                    4-14    - 13, HA
3-15    - EB                    4-15    - HA
--------                        --------
3-DA    - 02, 03, 04            4-FA    - 01, 02, 03
3-EA    - 04, 05                4-GA    - 04, 05, 06
3-EB    - 05, 06                4-HA    - 07, 08
3-XC    - 02

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ZONE    POSSIBLE EXITS          ZONE    POSSIBLE EXITS
5-01    - 09, 10, 02            5-16    - 24, 25, 17
5-02    - 01, 03                5-17    - 16, 18
5-03    - 02, 10, 11            5-18    - 17, 25, 26
5-04    - 12                    5-19    - 20, 27
5-05    - 12, 14, 13            5-20    - 19, 27, 28, 21
5-06    - 14, 07                5-21    - 20, 28
5-07    - 06, 22, 15            5-22    - 29, 30, 23
5-08    - 15                    5-23    - 22, 30
5-09    - 10                    5-24    - IA, 25
5-10    - 16, 18                5-25    - 24, IA, 26
5-11    - 10                    5-26    - IA, 25
5-12    - 19, 13                5-27    - JA
5-13    - 12, 14, 19, 21        5-28    - JA, JB
5-14    - 13, 21                5-29    - JB
5-15    - 22, 23                5-30    - JB
--------                        --------
5-IA    - Good Ending           5-JA    - Bad Ending
                                5-JB    - Bad Ending
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: Lettered rooms always lead to the next zone except where otherwise noted.
As you might notice, this game is not linear by any stretch of the imagination. (You might also notice I label my boss stages with letters instead of numbers, but that's not important right now.) See, the galaxy of this game is made of us four "abridged memory" zones, which are made up of 15 levels using enemies and assets from the first four Super Bomberman games, 3 unique boss zones, and an extra stage in zones 1-3 for special battles with Honey and Kotetsu (a couple of Hudson Soft mascots). Zone 5 is completely new and houses 30 levels with three boss areas. Altogether, this makes 108 playable stages (though, I can't see the difference between some of the boss areas...). The current "any%" TAS by Ryuto uses the following route: 
Current TAS route (for comparison):
STAGES TRAVERSED: 021/108		COMPLETION RATE: 019%
 1-01 -> 1-05 -> 1-06 -> 1-12 -> 1-AB -> 2-09 -> 2-06 ->
 2-08 -> 2-BA -> 3-02 -> 3-07 -> 3-11 -> 3-DA -> 4-02 ->
 4-09 -> 4-FA -> 5-03 -> 5-10 -> 5-16 -> 5-25 -> 5-IA -X
In doing my research, I've found that the absolute shortest route with no repeats in the game sends you through 18 stages and puts you in the bad ending: 
STAGES TRAVERSED: 018/108               COMPLETION RATE: 017%
 1-01 -> 1-07 -> 1-08 -> 1-15 -> 1-AC -> 2-12 -> 2-10 ->
 2-11 -> 2-XB -> 3-13 -> 3-EB -> 4-06 -> 4-14 -> 4-HA ->
 5-07 -> 5-22 -> 5-29 -> 5-JB -X
... while the longest path with no repeats puts you through 34 stages and gives you the good ending: 
STAGES TRAVERSED: 034/108               COMPLETION RATE: 031%
 1-01 -> 1-02 -> 1-03 -> 1-04 -> 1-06 -> 1-10 -> 1-09 ->
 1-11 -> 1-AA -> 2-01 -> 2-02 -> 2-07 -> 2-08 -> 2-BA ->
 3-02 -> 3-08 -> 3-09 -> 3-12 -> 3-13 -> 3-EB -> 4-04 ->
 4-11 -> 4-10 -> 4-FA -> 5-01 -> 5-02 -> 5-11 -> 5-10 ->
 5-16 -> 5-17 -> 5-18 -> 5-25 -> 5-26 -> 5-IA -X
I also determined that the longest possible single-session playthrough with repeated levels would run you through 38 unique stages with 2 repeated stages and give you the good ending: 
STAGES TRAVERSED: 040/108               REPEATED STAGES: 002/040
   UNIQUE STAGES: 038/108               COMPLETION RATE: 035%
 1-01 -> 1-02 -> 1-03 -> 1-04 -> 1-06 -> 1-08 -> 1-14 ->
(1-08)->(1-06)-> 1-10 -> 1-09 -> 1-11 -> 1-AA -> 2-05 ->
 2-06 -> 2-10 -> 2-08 -> 2-07 -> 2-BA -> 3-04 -> 3-08 ->
 3-09 -> 3-11 -> 3-DA -> 4-04 -> 4-11 -> 4-10 -> 4-FA ->
 5-01 -> 5-02 -> 5-03 -> 5-11 -> 5-10 -> 5-16 -> 5-17 ->
 5-18 -> 5-26 -> 5-25 -> 5-24 -> 5-IA
You actually get the same results aiming for the bad ending, though I ended up going through one more repeated stage there, somehow. Might need to research this a bit more... In any case, to get to 100% in this game, it's necessary to play it multiple times. The smallest amount of "passes" through the game that I could figure out was six passes: Three complete games from Zone 1-1 to Zone 5-I/JA/JB and three partial-passes that start from a logical point to get to a new stage and end after all possible "new" stages have been visited. Oh, and two "clean-up" mini-passes to reach two really out-of-the-way zones that didn't fall into the other pathways. You can see that chart right here: 
KEY:
#-## Level/area   ## Can be 01-15 or start with a letter
             AA-JB = Boss room, XA-XC = Mascot boss room
-> = Next level () = Repeat level -X = Move to next pass
----------

STAGES TRAVERSED: 138/108               REPEATED STAGES: 031/138
   UNIQUE STAGES: 108/108               TOTAL COMP.RATE: 100%
_PASS 1_________________________________________________
 1-01 -> 1-02 -> 1-03 -> 1-04 -> 1-06 -> 1-10 -> 1-09 ->
 1-11 -> 1-AA -> 2-01 -> 2-02 -> 2-07 -> 2-08 -> 2-BA ->
 3-02 -> 3-07 -> 3-11 -> 3-DA -> 4-03 -> 4-11 -> 4-10 ->
 4-FA -> 5-01 -> 5-02 -> 5-03 -> 5-11 -> 5-10 -> 5-16 ->
 5-17 -> 5-18 -> 5-26 -> 5-25 -> 5-24 -> 5-IA -X
_PASS 2_________________________________________________
(1-01)-> 1-07 -> 1-08 -> 1-14 -> 1-15 -> 1-AC -> 2-12 ->
 2-13 -> 2-14 -> 2-15 -> 2-CA -> 3-01 -> 3-06 -> 3-15 ->
 3-EB -> 4-06 -> 4-07 -> 4-15 -> 4-HA -> 5-08 -> 5-15 ->
 5-22 -> 5-23 -> 5-30 -> 5-JB -X
_PASS 3_________________________________________________
(1-01)-> 1-05 ->(1-06)->(1-08)-> 1-13 -> 1-12 -> 1-AB ->
 2-09 -> 2-10 -> 2-06 ->(2-10)-> 2-11 -> 2-BB -> 3-05 ->
 3-10 -> 3-12 -> 3-EA -> 4-05 -> 4-12 -> 4-GA -> 5-04 ->
 5-12 -> 5-13 -> 5-14 -> 5-21 -> 5-20 -> 5-19 -> 5-27 ->
 5-JA -X 
_PASS 4_________________________________________________
(1-11)-> 1-XA ->(2-02)-> 2-04 ->(2-BA)-> 3-03 -> 3-08 ->
 3-09 ->(3-12)-> 3-13 ->(3-EB)-> 4-04 ->(4-11)->(4-GA)->
 5-06 -> 5-07 ->(5-22)-> 5-29 -X
_PASS 5_________________________________________________
(1-09)->(1-AA)-> 2-05 -> 2-03 ->(2-07)->(2-BA)-> 3-04 ->
(3-09)->(3-11)->(3-DA)-> 4-02 -> 4-01 -> 4-08 ->(4-FA)->
(5-01)-> 5-09 -X
_PASS 6_________________________________________________
(2-11)-> 2-XB ->(3-13)->(3-EB)->(4-06)-> 4-14 -> 4-13 ->
(4-GA)-> 5-05 ->(5-14)->(5-21)-> 5-28 -X
_CLEAN-UP PASSES________________________________________
(3-06)-> 3-14 -X 
(3-07)-> 3-XC -X
So... that's what I came up with. Again, I'm not completely positive that this is the absolute shortest road to 100%... but it's certainly quite a bit shorter than my first attempt by several areas. (Less repeated rooms/backtracking, too.) Now... I should mention, these routes do not take into consideration how long it would take to defeat the enemies within a given area. The same goes with the boss battles. For example, I didn't put any Mascot Boss rooms in my paths (aside from the "absolute shortest" one) as, while they generally do does let you skip an entire stage... it might actually take longer to beat Honey and Kotetsu in Zone 1 than it does Bomber Woof, since there's only one of him while there's two of them. (They may also have more Heart-Ups, but I didn't really check...) I should also note, I'm releasing this to the forums in case anyone's interested in making a go at a better route or TASing the game 100%, themselves. I'm not sure I'm patient enough to try and TAS it 100% myself... With all the repeated playthroughs, it's still a pretty long game! Cheers, and I hope this is helpful to someone other than myself! (I actually made this to reduce redundancy in my causal playthrough... Go figure, right?) Oh! And just for laughs, here's the color-coded list I was using to keep track of already-visited areas: (I typed it in SeMagic and don't feel like trying to do HTML-to-BBCode right now, ha hah.)
I'm not that hard to find... if you know where to look. -=( http://jolikmc.tumblr.com )=-
Posted: 9/23/2016 7:23 AM
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dan
He/Him
Joined: 9/23/2016
Posts: 25
Thanks for the picture, it was really helpful.
  1. I am making the same assumption that stages take approximately the same time to complete.
  2. My solution also has 6 passes and two small clean-ups, but I have 16 replays instead of 31.
Legend 
*<stage>  means replaying this stage
duplicate means replaying two consecutive stages
1-?? could mean 1-08 or 1-12
4-?? could mean 4-03 or 4-11
END means end of the pass
Stats 
124/108 stages, 16 replays, 1 duplicate (3-E2 -> 4-06)
Routing 
Pass 1 (23 stages, 0 replays, 0 duplicates)
 1-01 -> 1-07 -> 1-08 -> 1-14 -> 1-15 -> 1-A3
      -> 2-12 -> 2-13 -> 2-14 -> 2-15 -> 2-C
      -> 3-01 -> 3-06 -> 3-14 -> 3-E2
      -> 4-06 -> 4-14 -> 4-13 -> 4-G
      -> 5-06 -> 5-07 -> 5-22 -> 5-29 -> END

Pass 2 (20 stages, 1 replays, 0 duplicates)
*1-01 -> 1-02 -> 1-03 -> 1-04 -> 1-09 -> 1-11 -> 1-?1
      -> 2-02 -> 2-04 -> 2-B1
      -> 3-02 -> 3-07 -> 3-?3
      -> 4-02 -> 4-01 -> 4-08 -> 4-F
      -> 5-02 -> 5-01 -> 5-09 -> END

Pass 3 (22 stages, 4 replays, 0 duplicates)
*1-01 -> 1-05 -> 1-06 ->*1-?? -> 1-13 -> 1-12 -> 1-A2
      -> 2-09 -> 2-10 -> 2-11 -> 2-?2
      -> 3-13 ->*3-E2
      -> 4-05 -> 4-12 ->*4-G
      -> 5-05 -> 5-14 -> 5-13 -> 5-21 -> 5-20 -> 5-28 -> END

Pass 4 (12 stages, 3 replays, 1 duplicates)
*3-06 -> 3-15 ->*3-E2
      ->*4-06 -> 4-07 -> 4-15 -> 4-H
      -> 5-08 -> 5-15 -> 5-23 -> 5-30 -> J2 -> END

Pass 5 (20 stages, 3 replays, 0 duplicates)
*1-06 -> 1-10 ->*1-09 -> 1-A1
      -> 2-05 -> 2-06 -> 2-08 -> 2-B2
      -> 3-05 -> 3-10 -> 3-12 -> 3-E1
      -> 4-04 -> 4-11 ->*4-G
      -> 5-04 -> 5-12 -> 5-19 -> 5-27 -> J1 -> END
      
Pass 6 (23 stages, 3 replays, 0 duplicates) 
*1-A1 -> 2-01 -> 2-03 -> 2-07 ->*2-B1
      -> 3-04 -> 3-09 -> 3-08 -> 3-11 -> 3-D
      -> 4-03 -> 4-09 ->*4-F
      -> 5-03 -> 5-11 -> 5-10 -> 5-16 -> 5-17 -> 5-18 -> 5-26 -> 5-25 -> 5-24 -> 5-I -> END
  
Clean Up (4 stages, 2 replays, 0 duplicates)
*2-B1 -> 3-03 -> END
*4-?? -> 4-10 -> END
Zone 5 Notes:
  1. There is quite a bit of symmetry in Zone 5, so there are more combinations of the same stages in different orders.
  2. From 4-F -> 5-01 -> 5-09 can be swapped with 4-F -> 5-03 -> 5-11, but 5-02 needs to come before either 5-01 or 5-03
  3. From 5-10 to 5-25, you can do 5-16 through 5-18 in the fastest order
  4. From 5-16 or 5-18, you can do 5-24 through 5-26 in the fastest order
Posted: 9/26/2016 7:43 PM
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JoLiKMC
Joined: 11/20/2004
Posts: 236
Location: United States
Whoa... Your run-thru looks a lot more optimized! There's one thing I'm not entirely sure about though... and that's where the boss stage icons on the actual map place you. See, for those who don't know (since I didn't explain this and neither did anything else I've linked), on the map screen, you do have access to the boss stages. Zone 1-A, Zone 3-C, etc. etc. are there. Problem being... if a particular zone has "duplicate" boss rooms (such as Zone 1 and it's A1, A2, and A3), there's no way of telling, at a glance, which of the boss rooms you'll end up in if you click the icon on the map. Not without actually doing it, I mean. Logic says that you'd probably end up in the first version of a "duplicate" boss room (A1, B1, etc.) by using the map. However, I never actually bothered to test this myself. For all I know, it could randomly pick one, or maybe just use the last boss room you ran through instead. So... that's one thing I didn't take into account that you, Dan, seem to have. To answer your other question, I'm sure some stages can be completed faster than others due to varying factors (some areas in Zones 4 and 5 have landmarks that must be destroyed to continue, for example), but from what I've seen, if you're speedrunning the game, you can generally rip through most any zones in about the same time as others. Still though, it's definitely not a bad idea to put this into practical application and test the swappable stages to see which ones work out the best under the most ideal conditions.
I'm not that hard to find... if you know where to look. -=( http://jolikmc.tumblr.com )=-