Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Zurggriff,
Tell us honestly, you are not a newbie, right? ;)
Because the best words to explain your run are “tool-assisted as fuck” and “fast has hell”, which I saw in YouTube comments :)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
I am a lurker, not a newbie :P
I started TASing and speedrunning Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (and eventually this game) in 2012 but I never made or had anything to contribute to this site, so I never made a profile. With that being said, I was trying to find a way to collect all the rings in Mystic Cave 2 for a high score TAS (Evil_3D managed to figure this one out) and, instead, found a zip that was useful for a quicker level wrap. This is the only improvement I found in this level.
Mystic Cave 2 0:28::52
This is the progress of my ring attack.
Casino Night Zone 1
Link to video
Zone 2 (Collected unreachable rings in the sky at 0:10)
Link to video
Hill Top Zone 1
Link to video
Zone 2 (I found a simple trick with the camera to pass through the doors in the lava chamber, is not same as Sonic 3, is something different).
Link to video
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Zurggriff wrote:
I am a lurker, not a newbie :P
I started TASing and speedrunning Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (and eventually this game) in 2012 but I never made or had anything to contribute to this site, so I never made a profile. With that being said, I was trying to find a way to collect all the rings in Mystic Cave 2 for a high score TAS (Evil_3D managed to figure this one out) and, instead, found a zip that was useful for a quicker level wrap. This is the only improvement I found in this level.
Mystic Cave 2 0:28::52
Wow you beat Aglar ;)
Zurggriff wrote:
I started TASing and speedrunning in 2012
Glad that my eyes were not lying.
By the way… Remember Emerald Hill frame war? Go to the page 4 if you don’t.
marzojr wrote:
At least 1 frame lower. You beat me to the slope jump after the first partially-offscreen monitor (I was trying something along those lines), but the jump at the end caught me by surprise.
Edit: Heh, me and Aglar posted at just about the same time. Time to splice his new trick in.
Edit 2: Here, added the extra frame to Aglar's version.
If someone manages to redo it, applying Kiske’s “monitor madness” trick, he/she would save some more frames :)
Evil_3D wrote:
I found a simple trick with the camera to pass through the doors in the lava chamber, is not same as Sonic 3, is something different
Seems useless though — would be a lot faster to spindash through that door.
(upd) I’ve made a temp encode of the brain-exploding Zurggriff’s TAS
Link to video
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Glad that my eyes were not lying.
By the way… Remember Emerald Hill frame war? Go to the page 4 if you don’t.
I should point out that I started in 2012, not since 2012. I am not very good/impatient with TASing and I am only somewhat familiar with the mechanics of this game and emulator tools. The improvement I made in MCZ2 over Aglar's run was only due to a new route. As far as the OOZ2 Ring Attack goes, it is easy for it to look impressive with that speed, but it should be improvable.
I suppose can give EHZ1 a try. It may take a while though.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
I’m sorry to make you all waiting, yes, I am still working on EHZ1 ring attack; in addition, I am a few seconds ahead of you in Hill Top 2. If I don’t finish them, I will post my gmvs anyway so you can see what exactly I improved.
(upd) okay, half a minute ahead in a single act. Gotta go fast :)
(upd 2)here it is, I’m leaving it for you to finish it.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Thanks for this big improvement in HTZ2 WST, To be honest I did that trick with the camera and the door crushed me or could not pass lol, maybe I did not make enough tests, anyway thank you.
About EHZ i think can save a lot of seconds if I take your any% run as an example in some parts that require speed and ignoring some times the 15 frames in glide falls.
I also recorded OOZ1 today if you want you can give me more tip for optimize my runs
Link to video
I am practicing OOZ2, it is really difficult to control the speed that Zurggiff arrived, but as they say, practice makes the perfection.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Zurggriff wrote:
Here is a run of Emerald Hill 1 that applies Kiske’s “monitor madness” trick.
Emerald Hill 1 0:14::11
Good job! Watching your run frame by frame was a pleasure, it’s a honor for me to talk to such a good player.
Well, if you have mood for that, you can try improving the entire Kiske’s any% TAS. Though Kiske is also a good player, he was making that run in an extreme hurry, and, as a result, most stages are easilly improveable (well, I’m not blaming him — I also made such runs). If you enjoy solving hard TAS tasks, I can suggest you another one, also from this game. Read this message. It’s another case when I know exactly what to do in order to improve the run, but feeling it too hard to peform it perfectly. I managed to go ahead of Kiske by about 20 frames, but I used jump height of 3 frames of pressing jump button, which probably can be shortened with proper Y-subpixel management.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Thanks to WST for show me new tricks i improved EHZ1.
Old time: 01:17:10
New time: 01:11:44 (Around 0:59 I needed to wait for the platform for sync, this level troll me sometimes)
Encode
Link to video
Download GMV File
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Good job; after viewing it, I have a feeling that I can gain much greater speed from the loop at ~0:56, but it’s possible that the mentioned platform will not allow to use that for an improvement. Amyway, I’ll give it a try when I have time (probably some hours later or tomorrow).
(upd) yeah it’s possible to boost to ~4000 sp/f there, but yeah, it is useless
Btw, try to learn the “run up a slope” and “monitor madness” tricks, both of them are explained on this forum (in the current topic and the topic dedicated to S2), both are based on your horizontal alignment, they are really useful in this game. A good example of a run using both of these tricks is Zurggriff’s EHZ1 TAS above.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Well.. this is my first attempt in OOZ 2 using zurggriff strategy.
Idk what he does in 1:33 with the camera, so I decided to return to normal speed and finish the rest of the level. I know I forgot the ring monitor in the last part, later I will modify my route a bit.
Download GMV File
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Okay, one question.
Why need to redo a run made by a highly skilled player?
Do you know that you can simply copy-paste his input (if he permits that, of course)? This game is very hex-friendly and usually you can copy-paste levels without any changes, or (seldom) applying a small pause in previous level.
Also, you should strive to be more precise. No offence, but your runs still look like you are using slow mode instead of frame advance. Hey, you are a TASer, you have perfect control of everything.
Open your gmv in Gens. Let’s see from the very beginning.
1. Menu selection. You are spamming start button [S][][S][][S][][S][] and so on. Now open my HTZ2 run above. Do you see the difference? I find the exact frame where the start button works. Also, sometimes you need to skip 2 screens in a row, you can actually use 2 joypads [S₁][S₂]. Some buttons can be pressed together, for example, for selecting the second option from the list, you may press [v][][S], or [v][S], but the best would be [vS].
2. Spindash. Let me replicate how you perform it.
[v][v][v][v][v][v][vA][vAB][vBC][vAC][vAB][vC][vAB][C]
What the?..
First you are pressing [v] like trying to find the very first frame where you can start moving, BUT…
Second surprisingly, you are starting to charge the spin dash later than it becomes possible
Third the key sequence is longer than needed, and more complex. The classic spindash is this [v][vA][vB][vC][vA][vB][vC], used by almost every Sonic TASer since SprintGod’s epoch.
So… You should not make your spindash too complex, thus you will not loose frames without reason, and also you should start your input at the exact frame where it becomes possible. Want to know why? Because it will help you very much later, if you need to copy-paste parts of the input in the editor. With the input starting later than needed, you will loose time; with the input starting earlier, you will mess the things up when trying to edit the run.
Without this level of perfection, you will never do a good acceptable TAS.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Well, i'm start TASing around 1/2 months instead he does it since 2012, it is obvious that I have much to learn even (nobody is born knowing i guess)
About frame advance I do not know how this works perfectly, maybe my runs will look a bit ugly with the absence of this.
I also do not lose anything doing my version of OOZ2 in case he does not let me copy his input ( I have my way to make an "ugly" run and then optimize it well and upload it to my youtube channel) It sounds very stupid but it's my particular way of seeing errors and fixing these
thanks for the tip of spindash i keep it in mind :)
About the editor, i don't know how to use it :(
Wing Fortress 1:20::49
As far as I could tell, the big jump with a 1 frame jump button duration followed by proper glide-landing is possible when the Y-subpixel value is greater than or equal to 144 upon starting the big jump. The maximum Y-subpixel achievable upon landing on the wing fortress is 128. With that range of Y-subpixels and the Y-pixel that Knuckles has when activating the slope glitch, it is not possible to jump with a 1 frame jump button duration, get proper glide-landing for the big jump's zip, and get a Y-subpixel value greater than 112. It is also not possible to get proper glide-landing with big jumps using a 2, 3, or 4 frame jump button duration starting with Y-subpixels in the range of 0-112. There would be a potentially faster method that goes as follows: After initiating the slope glitch, jump for 1 frame, release the jump button for one frame, glide, release the glide button upon landing, jump when possible, glide when possible (like proper glide-landing) and then roll and zip. The process is 4 frames faster than the other method but also fails to get a Y-subpixel value greater than 112. If this information is incorrect, or there is a way around this, more time could be saved.
Regarding the OOZ2 Ring Attack
WST wrote:
Why need to redo a run made by a highly skilled player?
I think it would be better to encourage finding improvements over existing runs, however...
Evil_3D wrote:
I also do not lose anything doing my version of OOZ2 in case he does not let me copy his input ( I have my way to make an "ugly" run and then optimize it well and upload it to my youtube channel) It sounds very stupid but it's my particular way of seeing errors and fixing these
You do not lose anything by making your own TASes as you like (I have done this as well, just offline). Also, I have no problem with you copying the inputs of the file posted in this forum (though I don't know why you would if your aim is to see how well you can make this TAS, which is also fine). Now, if you were planning on submitting a ring attack TAS to this site, it would significantly impact the judges decision to accept the run if it is obviously not well optimized (people do look at these frame-by-frame) or is obsolete in some way. Getting familiar with frame advance would help.
Getting the rings at 1:33 and then getting out of the wall without losing the acceleration altering glitches was difficult. It required getting in positions that had low zipping speeds, low speeds from spindash zips, and using the lag of the camera for the faster zips. It would be nice to see you or anyone else improve the time on this level.
Also, because this was missed and is misleading, I started TASing in 2012, not since 2012, in which there have been significant periods of inactivity.
Thanks Zurggriff, about the submission i don't really want to do it for now, my main objective is improving my skills, is for that reason that I register here, it's a pity that many sonic tasers are no longer playing and the help of WST is really grateful and apreciated and I'm having fun doing this Ring-Attack.
Maybe do a submission of this run in some months (like 4/6+), first i want to lear how to TAS well and learn and test all of the glitches and tricks of this game.
On OOZ2 it was fun to do it, there were many variants to try, if you see the demo well, improve some of your movements that delayed you a little, but the last unreachable rings was a very difficult movement for me (for now).
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Evil_3D wrote:
About frame advance I do not know how this works perfectly, maybe my runs will look a bit ugly with the absence of this.
Just go to Options → Input in your Gens to see/change your frame advance button.
It does the same as Esc — pauses the emulation — with a significant difference: each time you press it, it will proceed the emulation 1 frame further, applying the input which you provide.
Evil_3D wrote:
it's a pity that many sonic tasers are no longer playing
Yeah, I absolutely agree, it’s damn bad how many Sonic TASers left TAS world: SprintGod, nitsuja, upthorn, Crramalama, emu2000, tensor, Sonikkustar, Quietust, Felipe/Hat, mmarks — just to name a few of them.
Even my shadow feeuzz is not as active as before, because he’s extremely busy IRL nowadays…
By the way, I’ve informed Kiske about your works on his favorite game.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
I hope one day some Sonic TASers return, this forum section is a little dead :(
Also, I was practicing with the Frame Advance and I did a run in Metropolis 1, personally I see a dramatic difference controlling Knuckles, today was a productive day.
GMV File
I feel your pain, I tried so hard to get people on board for the S2K ringless run. It may take long but I'm sure the result will be incredible. If I had better skills I would like to help but from S2K ringless, the only inputs that were still mine were Skychase Zone which has no real impact on time haha. I could look for bugs though, for those unattainable rings maybe.
Edit:
I gave CPZ2 a try because i felt like the route could be improved and I managed to save 7 seconds. (in-game) I'm sure it's still improvable though but not by me :P
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/84591753/skychase%20-%20S2K%20allringCPZ2%20-%20.gmv
Edit2: Low quality encode ><
Link to video
Nice tricks in CPZ2 skychase, maybe improve you run later :)
Metropolis 2
In this level there are 4 groups of unreachable rings (3 rings per group)
Knuckles can reach 3 of these but I decided to ignore the third group above the invulnerability monitor and grab the 2 groups that take less time, the third group takes me about 3/4 minutes to get there and grab them, the fourth group only Sonic and Tails can grab them.
If anyone knows how Knuckles can grab these 2 groups without spending so much time, let me know.
GMV FileEncodeLink to videoEDIT
This is my version of OOZ2 (reached +1M of Score lol)
Link to video
Evil_3D, I have a run with a "Perfect Bonus" in Metropolis 2 and it does not use the slow 3-4 minute method for one of the groups of rings that I think you are talking about. The file is a high score test run.
Metropolis 2 starts on frame 291050.
GMV File
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Zurggriff wrote:
Evil_3D, I have a run with a "Perfect Bonus" in Metropolis 2 and it does not use the slow 3-4 minute method for one of the groups of rings that I think you are talking about. The file is a high score test run.
Metropolis 2 starts on frame 291050.
GMV File
Off topic: it reminds me of this my testrun. Though S3&K gives you a great time bonus for finishing the game at 9:59 :)
Anyway, liked your run really much.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
