Evil_3D, I have a run with a "Perfect Bonus" in Metropolis 2 and it does not use the slow 3-4 minute method for one of the groups of rings that I think you are talking about. The file is a high score test run.
Metropolis 2 starts on frame 291050.
GMV File
Thanks you are amazing, i try that trick like Ice Cap 1 but ever fall in the lava haha, thanks again for show me the route
Thanks WST. I saw your test run with Amy in LBZ1. Unfortunatley, I was already familiar with that strat, having done real time high score runs there; a true endurance test for holding down on the D-pad. I am not much of a fan for the absurd time bonus for going slow though, and levels like LBZ1 kind of force it to happen, as getting 9:58 would cost in-level points.
Getting back on topic, you have talked me into attempting to improve the existing any% TAS. Below is a WIP that is complete through ARZ2.
WIP through ARZ2
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Extremely good job, friend, this is already almost submittable (no kidding). I still have a few recommendations for you.
1. You already know how to brake perfectly when you somehow manage to get your speed to be n*128 and the ground below is flat. But, as you can see, there are some other braking conditions. For example: frames ~17498 and ~17615 in your gmv file. The ground is still flat, but you cannot make your speed n*128 at the moment of landing (though it may be possible in both cases). If you cannot do perfect braking, you should do the “cheap good braking”: first, bring your speed to value below 128, then press [<>]. This sets your speed to exactly 128 from any value between zero and 127 (including zero) and then you can press [v<] and start your spindash. It is significally faster than what you did. Try it yourself and see.
2. Perfect braking on sloped surface. Depending on the slope angle where you are landing at, you will want to make your [ground] speed be n*141, n*133 and so on. I do not remember exact values, they depend on the slope angle, and if you really want to dig into this, I suggest making a table of decelerations (which consist of combination of running braking rate and slope acceleration), but well, this is usually so hard that only Aglar, Tee-N-Tee and Zurggriff make it perfectly, others like me just try to not waste more than 2-3 frames.
3. Acceleration in the loops. First, maximize your speed in the top of the loop by finding the best position for the up-loop jump (this may require some horizontal alignment before the loop), then find the best points for starting rolling and for the down-loop jump. And — the important thing — for Knuckles there is something more. When you are landing from the down-loop jump, press the jump button for 1 frame at the point of landing. If you succeed, this will give you extra boost (exception is when your speed is already more than ~4000 — in this case you should not perform the down-loop jump at all and usually it is faster to pass the loop normally).
(upd) oh, now I noticed that you are already familiar with that glide-landing trick after the down-loop jump
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Damn.
I decided to try improving your run, changed the route a bit, and managed the “run up a slope” and “monitor madness” tricks, but… but… Well, I run so fast that in addition to the pixel ranges required for the tricks, I also skipped a ring >_<
Anyway, I hope you’ll find my ideas useful. I may also continue this run soon, but sharing this for now.
Zurggriff, if you have time and mood, you can also test it for possibility of collecting that ring and performing at least the “run up a slope” trick (monitor madness is not so important here, I guess).
GMV File(upd)the finished gmv file, probably still improveable (especially the ending), but well, ~3 seconds improvement anyway :)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Very nice!! about the "run up a slope" I try to do it but Knuckles don't interact with the last ring in the slope because of the camera, I was thinking of jumping straight to the slope instead of the ground to grab those rings, but I currently go for ARZ2, and my EHZ1 does not look too bad, I'm okay for now.
Also, I made a encode of my first WIP (EHZ1 to CPZ2), maybe a frame war-ring attack of EHZ1 is comming? it would be funny haha
Link to video
Enjoy
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
“Frame war” term is not really suitable here, because the ring attacks are way more complex than the speedruns, and thus doing them “as fast as possible” is also way more complex. Even in extremely privitive NES games with constant horizontal speed & nasty frame rules, there are new improvements coming from time to time, do you really think that we can optimize this to such level? I highly doubt :) so, all ring attacks are usually improveable by seconds — and that’s actually fine, I’m just trying to give you some feeling of perfection.
By the way, at least one of CPZ tunnels is enterable by spindashing through it’s bung.
I’ve improved the end of my run a bit, one more in-game second faster now.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/676458631/TAS-S2K-Knuckles-RingAttack-Evil3D.gmv
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
It was just a joke :P, yeah totally agree "Ring Attacks" personally this type of runs don't have a limit of improving, I'm trying to make my runs sophisticated and entertaining at the same time so they are not tedious.
There are always factors to improve the routes, you need to set a path and follow it, keep the objects in sync, have an entire map of the level, think strategies, movements, possible glitches to save time and most importantly, do not forget rings, this happened to me in CPZ1 with ring monitors accessible as Knuckles if I remember well were 3 extras in total and just knew 1, but exploring I find the other 2 and the limit of 325 increase to 355 rings in CPZ1, is a big difference.
And I have to do this with the 18 zones u_u, But now it is not so difficult, I have my base runs and I guide of them, I really appreciate you runs you show me new tricks every time :D.
EditWST wrote:
If you cannot do perfect braking, you should do the “cheap good braking”: first, bring your speed to value below 128, then press [<>]. This sets your speed to exactly 128 from any value between zero and 127 (including zero) and then you can press [v<] and start your spindash.
Only for ask, this works same underwater?, because in ARZ most of time I have -127, and the ground is not plane is curved, does it affect this?
The Ring Attack is looking good. Particularly, the use of clipping through objects and zipping in Chemical Plant 1 was very entertaining.
WST asked for a way to collect rings in Emerald Hill 1 and get the 'run up slope' and 'monitor madness' tricks so here is a file with this.
GMV File
Only for ask, this works same underwater?, because in ARZ most of time I have -127, and the ground is not plane is curved, does it affect this?
Water is strange, it sets running acceleration to 6 sp/f², braking rate to 64 sp/f², but somehow pressing [<>] sets the speed to 128. I guess, the right way will be:
1. brake normally [<] until the speed reaches -128 or 64
2. Press [>]
3. [v<] and so on
One more trick about braking (not underwater, but general) is using some frames of [<>] instead of [<], when your still is still above 128 (or above ~260 for Sonic 3), this decreases your speed by 116 instead of 128 — sometimes it is useful to gain extra subpixels (useful only until it makes braking 1 frame longer), sometimes — to help bring the speed to be n*128.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Yeah I’d love to join, and yeah I will help merging the runs, just a few hours later
Wow, what the hell happened at frame ~35219 in your gmv? How in the world that guy survived?
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Very funny moment jaja
Knuckles is very busy collecting rings instead of killing badniks (?)
If you want to do some level just tell me, so I do not by mistake, the same for Zurggriff.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
My work is taking a bit longer than supposed; I got a desync in CPZ2 due to an object relying on the global timer, I’ll have to either redo a small part of CPZ2 or apply a pause in CPZ1, better the first…
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Thank you very much, Paused. In fact, there are already 3 people who have their input in this run.
Evil_3D, here we goEvil_3D wrote:
If you want to do some level just tell me, so I do not by mistake, the same for Zurggriff.
To be honest, I prefer redoing existing runs (parts of them), planning a ring attack from scratch would take too much patience and time. I hope that’s fine. Just do your work, I will tell you when I feel something is done “not good enough” and help to redo it.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Thanks WST I do :3.
I can do all levels without problem now, only need time and patience for optimize all and maybe need to use input of Tee-N-Tee on death egg robot.
I can try, take note of your positions and frames, but I think it's better to copy your input if he agrees
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
You mean you want me to copy Tee-N-Tee’s input for the final zone? If so, of course, I will do it for you, you will only need to ask his permission.
Btw, there is another possibility — Zurggriff already proved himself able to handle that optimization level; I also can try doing my best on that zone. However, it’s not the right time to think of the final zone now, I think :)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Now that I am aware that changes before the CPZ can cause a desync., the capsule animals can be manipulated to leave the screen sooner. (CPZ2 in the 'any%' WIP I posted was over 40 frames faster than without animal manipulation) Most of the zones can be completed before going back to make these improvements but the EHZ capsule should be done before completing CPZ. I can help optimize the capsule animals.
Sorry for the late notice, WST.
Maybe a different room cause desync? I'm using "Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 2 (W) [f1].bin"
I do not find the "(!)" Supposedly is the best room, affect in something?
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Evil_3D, nope, I explained the reason of the desync in my previous messages — the floor in the boss room relies on the global timer. There can be other reasons, like changed pattern of loosing rings, but this run does not loose rings, so… At least one source for the desyncs is eliminated ;)
Zurggriff, I also think it would be nice to luck-manipulate the animals, sadly, Evil_3D has no idea about splicing the input files (though I told him about the editor, he needs more explaination), so, if you are going to perform animal optimization, you should also take care of resplicing the run and fixing the desyncs that may occur. Agree?
Of course, as Evil_3D is the leader of our team, it’s up to him to decide if we work on that non in-game optimization or not, but my position is that if we could do it, why not…
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
After more than a year inactive, I will try to "go back" to doing TAS works, but I do not promise anything to be aware all the time, I received me from the school and I am more than free of everything
I will see very closely the improvement they made in EHZ1, and other things that I will see more closely.
I repeat, I promise nothing but I'll be helping with this a little
Current Projects:
- GBA: Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising
Future Proyects:
- Genesis games
- GBA games
