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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:53 AM
Post subject: Mario Golf: Advance Tour WIP
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Hi people! Since I'm fairly new, I don't really know how things work around here. I've lurked for quite a bit, watching a new TAS every now and then. Now, it's my turn to contribute to the site. I started a Mario Golf: Advance Tour TAS, and I wanted to get your feel on it. I don't know if there is any kind of automated post (beside the "newest WIPs" on the main page), but I thought that starting a bit of publicity and gathering comments from the audience should be good to help me. So if you want to check it out and leave a comment / review / tip / whatever you think is useful, I'll be glad to hear you out! Here's the file: User movie #36530035993492900 Thanks in advance and keep TASing!
Posted: 1/24/2017 2:58 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Welcome! It's always nice to get more people coming here. I have done some TASing of this game myself, but most of it was on VBA rather than BizHawk. I want to give as much information I can. I know a few things about this game, and want to give you the best chance I can. I'm not sure if it's the fault of my settings or whatever, but I'm getting a desync at the first hole when viewing your run. Anyway... The introduction. You can save and quit the instant you gain control over your character. This lets you skip a bunch of dialogue. In addition, this might also be a good time to set fast text speed. Lastly, the golf tournaments are available from the main menu, rather than having to walk there yourself. You can clear the game any% just fine with Singles alone. If your goal is to get to some sort of ending, this would likely be acceptable. Luck manipulation: Wind, rain, and shot variance depends on RNG. As you should be getting Eagles or better, there will be confetti in the animation. This confetti has the power to call winds and summon rainstorms, by delaying some frames at that screen. If you need to tweak the wind, that would be the way to do it. A list of luck manipulation methods I know of: * Delay at confetti screen * Delay during rain * Switch to Green close-up view * Delay long enough to hear a chirping bird If your goal is speed, you'll want to get to your next shot as quickly as possible. If your ball is traveling slowly, it's spending those seconds being slow rather than dealing with your next shot. And if you can reach the hole with the next shot without that extra distance of a Topspin, it might be a good idea to use a Backspin instead. Don't be afraid of rough terrain. In fact, if you can still reach the hole from there, going into a Rough is actually an advantage. With reduced maximum power, you can confirm your shot sooner. Additionally, rough terrain lowers the height of your next shot, meaning the ball spends less time in the air. I'll have to find some of my things. I do have a fun side TAS (.vbm, for VBA, not BizHawk) where I make a variety of shots in a contest. Once I'm better organized, I'll track down some of my older things and let you take a look at those. I'll be giving my support in hopes you can create a good TAS. I am aware of one speedrun you can watch, if you need ideas. https://youtu.be/hH7Gz2wJFTY EDIT: Oh, this guy beat his older run I linked up there. https://youtu.be/2PTSr8QpsTM
Posted: 1/24/2017 4:16 PM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Wow, thanks a lot! As for luck manipulation, so far I've been scoring Eagles pretty easily without manipulating anything. I've not yet seen any opportunity to score better than a -2, although I'm still on the first half of the first course. I'll also look at the desync, just to be sure. I'll continue working on it! By the way, yes, my goal is speed, so I'm trying to optimize my shots as much as possible. For now, I've only been trying to sink the ball in as few shots as possible, but I've done some optimization already and I'll do more opt passes as I work on it. EDIT: Resynced it and added two more holes, I still have to add your optimizations. User movie #36565232429658073
Posted: 1/25/2017 1:40 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
I don't know what dialogue is skipped, as Ella still says "wait up" as I exit the clubhouse. And which main menu are you talking about that lets me access the tournament without walking to it? By the way, even with the seemingly useless save & quit, I saved some time from the fast text.
Posted: 1/25/2017 8:57 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Well, in a speedrun I linked earlier: https://youtu.be/2PTSr8QpsTM Skip a few minutes (go to 4:47). When the speedrunner gains control of Ella (his choice of character), look at which options he takes. Save & Quit Save current data? No Return to the main menu? Yes After that, selecting Story Mode will not ask you if you wish to continue from where you left off (though you can say no to that as well to get around it), instead it offers a few other choices. This is where the menu tournament selection is. Figuring out how things work even in menus can sometimes be unexpected. Don't be afraid to explore every option. Actually, there is even another menu option to look at. Once in the tournament, the pause menu has other options. The 3-D Shot Screen can be turned off, and the transitions slow you down every shot if you leave it on. It takes a bit of practice to know how to really explore the game. Sometimes even the options have stuff in them that's critical in speeding things up.
Posted: 1/25/2017 11:07 PM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Hmm. I'll look at that speedrun before continuing to do "nothing". I don't want to have to "find" everything that someone has already did, plus it makes me work extra, since I have to redo the holes after every change... Thanks! EDIT: Alright, I looked at the run! First off, change from Neil to Ella should help, and also maybe getting that power ticket. Also, I now understand your point to skip some dialogue and go straight to the tourney (it's easier now that I've seen how it's done), and I'll probably super backspin all my shots from now on. Thanks a lot for the input, plus I've tried to ask some help from the guy himself. We'll see how that turns out! Oh yeah, and I probably won't skip holes, as it's not really fun to watch. I'm willing to sacrifice that to make a more enjoyable run.
Posted: 1/26/2017 5:19 AM
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CardsOfTheHeart
Joined: 5/15/2013
Posts: 21
If there's anything that I've learned from real-time runs of this, it's pretty much the previously mentioned idea that ball flight is slow and rolling on the ground is slow. Neil's height goes up as he levels up and Ella's goes down. Also, some clubs seem to have magical anti-rolling properties on flat ground with super backspin. I remember 3I and 3W being particularly good with that, but slopes will certainly have an impact on that. There's something to be said for adjusting the impact marker as high as feasible on every shot and setting up the lowest lofted club possible for each shot. I find myself not adhering to the second part as often as I would like due to lack of precision and increased risk. I do wonder if you need to get any custom tickets, though. I only put points in control for consistency. Perhaps the extra points you can afford to put in distance will allow you to not bother with other clubs. Besides, there are always power shots. However, I am confused by the lines "my goal is speed" and "I probably won't skip holes as it's not really fun to watch." Is the primary goal speed or entertainment? If the goal is entertainment, then you wouldn't necessarily focus on getting as many eagles as you could--the general audience probably won't find that entertaining for a golf game. Personally, I'm most interested in seeing how low the time could go. That reminds me: I should probably finish my re-route.
I have the tendency to post a few too many Kappas.
Posted: 1/27/2017 12:38 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Well, the first goal is speed. But, unless I'm mistaken, some trade-offs are acceptable if they make the run more enjoyable. If the run ever gets rejected, I'll just switch to full speed and remove any trade-off and bring the time as low as I can. However, I do think that seeing all holes is a must for a TAS, since perfect play is something that we can afford. Giving up a hole because "it's faster" seems almost boring. Maybe I'll just call this run a "all holes%". That would actually make sense now that I think of it. Anyway, I've made the switch to Ella, and I've also decided to grab the POW clubs. I feel like the distance loss from the switch plus getting rid of the super topspin in favor of super backspin justify spending 2000 frames to go and get it. By the way, thanks a lot Cards, your run definitely helped a lot (I actually couldn't understand how to do the skips before the first hole)!
Posted: 1/27/2017 1:51 AM
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Niamek
Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?
You make up the goal and the objectives anyway. Don't let the other decide for yourself. :) One thing to note about shots: higher shots tend to be slow. I would watch a TAS of this, as well as 100% too! =D Good luck in your project.
Posted: 1/27/2017 2:21 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Thanks a lot Niamek! I'll indeed use my own goal. So yeah, I guess the official name for that run will be "all holes". I'll take the risk that it won't be accepted, which wouldn't be that bad anyway. Thanks a lot to everyone that answered so far!
Posted: 1/27/2017 2:23 AM
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Niamek
Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?
Have you considered taking the risky club it gives yu a huge boost in power and straigthen the trajectory.
Posted: 1/27/2017 2:24 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
I got together some of my older files and uploaded them. A script, converted for BizHawk. A few holes I did with Neil on VBA. Through Marion using Ella on VBA. Hopefully, these will prove useful in some fashion. These aren't doing anyone any favors if they exist only on my backups. As for your resync, yep it works now. You've got support from a few of us already, so keep going! I'm hoping flag shots aren't too difficult to make with a script telling you the distance to the pin as the ball moves. One more thing to experiment with is to try missing the perfect impact timing. Maybe even completely miss the Impact Zone entirely. This affects the flight path of the ball, and might occasionally give a desirable outcome. One more tool to think about in your quest to win those tournaments in less than an hour. As for whether we should skip holes by giving up, there's a detail about how much EXP you get based on your score. A TAS can Give Up more holes than RTA, but a higher level gives higher Drive. Hard to be certain what is optimal, though, since even selecting which holes to Give Up in is itself in need of route planning. Risky clubs only show up basically after you beat the game. Probably not helpful for our speedrun.
Posted: 1/27/2017 2:45 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Thanks a lot! I might have a look at your files a bit later. I've seen that indeed, sometimes not hitting the perfect impact helps to cut down on aiming time. Plus, disabling the 3D view really helps to save time. I'll have another file to post soon (hopefully before the weekend), as I'm redoing pretty much everything, now that I'm with Ella. Currently on the start of hole 3 (Marion), I'll post a new WIP after hole 9. I'll probably slow down my post rate a bit after that, but I'll keep you all updated on my progress. I'll also probably be slowed by college, but hey, that's life and there isn't anything to do about that. We'll finally have something for this game on here!
Posted: 1/27/2017 3:05 AM
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Paused
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
All holes seems a category that would be accepted just fine here. (As well as many other places on the internet.) Can't offer much to help other than encouragement JCBoorgo, as my familiarity with the details of the game are sadly lacking; but looking forward to see how this goes. Best of luck!
Posted: 2/13/2017 4:12 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Hey guys! Submitted a new WIP, with a lot of changes. It took a lot of time, because college and because I had to re-do pretty much everything. First, all "start-up" optimizations have been made, and I've changed from Neil to Ella. 10 holes done so far, going well. I've also decided that it would be a courage% run (courage because I never give up a hole ;) ). Enjoy and feel free to help again! User movie #36997429300865078 (next WIP post when I'm done with this course, to not spam everyone)
Posted: 2/14/2017 12:49 AM
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TheKDX7
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Player (118)
Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 392
Location: Switzerland
It's always nice to see someone focus on a game that people have little interest in. In any case I give you all my support, good luck !
Posted: 2/14/2017 3:53 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
I'm not sure that "people have little interest in" is really positive, but hey if it's nice I'll take it. I guess you only meant that nobody was willing to TAS it, but anyway I'll do it to the very end, because I really think that it's underdone here (I mean really, TASing golf is pretty hard but really cool when it all comes together).
Posted: 2/14/2017 1:15 PM
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TheKDX7
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Player (118)
Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 392
Location: Switzerland
JCBoorgo wrote:
I'm not sure that "people have little interest in" is really positive, but hey if it's nice I'll take it. I guess you only meant that nobody was willing to TAS it, but anyway I'll do it to the very end, because I really think that it's underdone here (I mean really, TASing golf is pretty hard but really cool when it all comes together).
Yes, that's what I meant, excuse me. My English is really not terrible.
Posted: 2/14/2017 3:22 PM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Well, thanks a lot! :)
Posted: 2/15/2017 3:21 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
GUYS GUYS GUYS I've finished the first course! WOOOOOO! And yeah, if you have any comments / suggestions / improvements / whatever, feel free to write them! Cheers! User movie #37041094408634962 (next post after second course)
Posted: 2/15/2017 7:36 AM
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deuxhero
Joined: 8/7/2011
Posts: 166
Interested in seeing the finished. Liked this game and superhuman control on it seems interesting. Wonder how using a finished run to sync to Toadstool Tour and complete all the tournaments there with the same character would work out as far as rules on the site go.
Posted: 2/16/2017 6:59 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
I'm bad with making videos. I would love a comparison between my VBA run and JCBoorgo's BizHawk run. I do have a few criticisms though, considering my prior TASing experience. Ball's flight time is usually vastly longer than any adjustments in aim or changing clubs. Adjusting aim to get the ball closer to the pin on your next shot should generally be faster, as that would be that much less distance to travel when you swing once more. In a few cases, I think the hole can be cleared in one fewer shot (7, 11, and 18 are ones to look at). I saw, at one point, a Sw used, which hits at a particularly high arc, as compared to, say, 3I. Is the input time to switch to the 3I or some other club longer than the change in flight time of the ball? Anyway, those thoughts stick out at me.
Posted: 2/17/2017 12:24 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
All right, I'll have a look at them. As for the Sw, I just couldn't figure out a way of sinking the shot without it. The ball lands too close to the pin without any modification, and so I had to figure out a way to move the ball just a tiny bit, which is justified by the high arc that carries the ball with the wind / hook (I don't remember which one). Anyway, I've tried my best, and I'll look at the holes you pointed out, to see if I can come out with anything. Thanks for your comments!
Posted: 3/21/2017 12:54 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Been over a month. Anything to report? I did feel like trying something myself. Here's what I have now. I'll share any thoughts I can think of from the TASing sessions. Precision aims do require some odd inputs at times. There are 4096 distinct angles you can aim in, and the game frequently has you skipping in 2s, 3s, and more. If you keep Left or Right held from before the shot is ready to be tweaked with, the adjustment gets a high skip. With a blank frame, it slows down. The skips also depend on the distance of the simulation, with longer distances reducing the skip. As much as it would be nice to have the ball quickly roll in, the terrain isn't a nice, consistent surface on the way to the hole. Land a yard further, and the ball lands on the Green and rolls straight off. A yard back, and I get the Rough and the ball doesn't roll much. Let's not forget things like hills, trees, the fact the ball might bounce, and all those problems with tweaking the shot just right. Early, I choose to send the ball on Semi-rough or other not-Fairway terrain, rather than deal with the Best Drive message. At least, not until Hole 7. The bad terrain has a few effects that make it not so bad, and if I'm still able to reach the hole in the same number of shots, it's just another spot to hit from. For the level up stats, I pick purely Drive. Height needs to go low, Ella's does so naturally, and points here is counter-productive. Shot is freaking expensive. I'd rather get the extra distance. Impact & Control is about that Impact Zone. TAS-precision should let me ignore it. Spin is a really weak stat in MG:AT for some reason. In general, I'm hoping I can just shoot lower if I have well more than enough distance, and the high Drive means the ball travels faster at the start of each shot. I'm out of generic thoughts now. If there's any details you want to ask about, I'll be around to delve into whatever is needed.
Posted: 3/21/2017 1:20 AM
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JCBoorgo
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Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 24
Location: Québec (QC), Canada
Well, first of all, college hit hard. I couldn't really work on anything yet. Free time is a a scarce resource in my student life. I've yet to try it, but I think a bigger impact zone allows more leeway (dunno how to write that) in how you hit, thus allowing to correct somewhat your shots without relying on aiming. That might help to reach those angles that we somehow skip over while pressing L/R. Again, I've not tested it yet, I just used it in my run so far, but the basic, level 1 hit zone, so I don't know if a larger one helps. I still have to redo some holes, because as you mentioned, ball travel is really slow. I'll have to aim again on some parts, and indeed the terrain really hates us sometimes. We'll see where we end up!
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