Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I find a degree of irony in the fact that I don't really consider ACE demos a legit form of TASing, yet I'm arguing for ways to have more of them published, while most other people here consider them legit TASes and would want less of them published. There's a certain... cognitive dissonance in all this, for a lack of a better term. "They are awesome! Let's have less of them published!" It feels a bit similar to the situation with the "vault" tier. I have been pushing for years the notion of elevating this tier to the top, rather than it being considered just a garbage dump for all the "mundane" and "boring" TASes. I have been pushing for the idea that getting your run published in vault would be a privilege, the highest possible prestige, very similar to getting to the top of a category list of a given game at speedrun.com. In other words, if you get your run published in vault, you hold the world record; you are the best of all. But no, vault is still considered just a garbage dump where runs that don't get to moons get dumped. Rather than being a badge of honor, it's almost a badge of shame. And I seem to be in a very small minority who seem willing to have this notion reversed.
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I think a demonstration tier is a great idea. TASing takes so much time and work, so having a way to get more TASes published is a good thing. Not just for ACE runs but also for other categories that wouldn't make it to moons. I have a pretty good example of this, actually. I TAS 007: Nightfire and there are three main categories on the speedrun leaderboard. Any%, No Clipping/OoB, and All Tokens. The any% TAS will be finished eventually and will obsolete the current published TAS. All Tokens is a fun category that still has some cool tricks, but doesn't skip huge portions of the game like any% does. But then there's No Clipping/OoB, which is essentially a glitchless category. I plan to TAS that category eventually but I highly doubt it would be published to moons since it's much less interesting to watch than any% or All Tokens. When I make the All Tokens TAS sometime this year and it (hopefully) gets published, It would be the 2nd category to get published on this website. Assuming I make a No Clipping/OoB TAS after that and submit it here, I highly doubt it would get accepted to moons since it's the least interesting to watch of the three main categories. If it even got published at all, it would most likely make it to the vault, which would honestly be pretty insulting to me. I would spend months working on a great, optimized Nightfire TAS that doesn't use glitches, only to potentially have it published in the same category as shovelware games like Gummy Bears Mini Golf because it's incredibly boring. People would only see the No Clipping/OoB TAS if they chose to view vault runs, which most people don't do because they are usually games that would have been rejected a few years ago due to 'bad game choice'. There would also (potentially, if All Tokens got published) be 2 published Nightfire TASes at that point, giving even less reason to care about a third one that isn't interesting to watch. A demonstration tier would fix this problem by allowing more TASes to be published on this site. There are several movies I've seen in the Gruefood Delight that have been rejected because the goal was too arbitrary or the TAS didn't offer anything over the existing published TASes. Things like Super Mario 64 "CCC-less", Super Mario Bros. "Minimum Score (500)", or Sonic the Hedgehog 2 "Without Spindash". A demonstration tier would allow some of the TASes with more arbitrary goals to get published here without being dumped in the vault or outright rejected. You could argue that having more arbitrary or boring TASes would lower the average quality of content on TASvideos, but I don't think this is much of an issue. If a TAS is extremely unoptimized or poorly made, than it would probably have been rejected anyway. But there are plenty of well-made TASes that have been and could be rejected in the future, which I don't want to see happen.
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Joined: 11/3/2013
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Warp wrote:
It feels a bit similar to the situation with the "vault" tier. I have been pushing for years the notion of elevating this tier to the top, rather than it being considered just a garbage dump for all the "mundane" and "boring" TASes. I have been pushing for the idea that getting your run published in vault would be a privilege, the highest possible prestige, very similar to getting to the top of a category list of a given game at speedrun.com. In other words, if you get your run published in vault, you hold the world record; you are the best of all. But no, vault is still considered just a garbage dump where runs that don't get to moons get dumped. Rather than being a badge of honor, it's almost a badge of shame. And I seem to be in a very small minority who seem willing to have this notion reversed.
This boils down to a difference in philosophy between the real-time and tool-assisted approach to speedrunning. The real-time community is primarily about pushing humans to their limits. It's fundamentally competitive (though of course, speedrunners still share their discoveries), and the aim is to play the game better than anyone else can. Conversely, the tool-assisted community focuses on pushing the games themselves to their limits. It's more collaborative (though skilled or prolific TASers still have prestige) and the aim is to play the game perfectly. This last point is key. TASes, while rarely if ever perfect, should not be obviously flawed, in the way that any non-trivial real-time run is bound to be. A TAS is pretty obviously flawed if someone else submits another TAS of the same game/branch with a lower completion time. At that point the old TAS is clearly not perfect. It absolutely should be considered obsolete.
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Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1093
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Warp wrote:
I find a degree of irony in the fact that I don't really consider ACE demos a legit form of TASing, yet I'm arguing for ways to have more of them published, while most other people here consider them legit TASes and would want less of them published. There's a certain... cognitive dissonance in all this, for a lack of a better term. "They are awesome! Let's have less of them published!" It feels a bit similar to the situation with the "vault" tier. I have been pushing for years the notion of elevating this tier to the top, rather than it being considered just a garbage dump for all the "mundane" and "boring" TASes. I have been pushing for the idea that getting your run published in vault would be a privilege, the highest possible prestige, very similar to getting to the top of a category list of a given game at speedrun.com. In other words, if you get your run published in vault, you hold the world record; you are the best of all. But no, vault is still considered just a garbage dump where runs that don't get to moons get dumped. Rather than being a badge of honor, it's almost a badge of shame. And I seem to be in a very small minority who seem willing to have this notion reversed.
I fully agree with you regarding the vault. I have absolutely no problem with my only published TAS being in the vault. As for your idea of how ACE TASes should be treated, there's one thing that I'd like to know: Since you're basically suggesting that it should be possible to publish an infinite number of ACE TASes for one game at the same time, as long as each of them are "something notable and exceptional", should regular playarounds be treated the same way? As of now, it seems like ACE is treated like a variation of "playaround".
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
Warp wrote:
I find a degree of irony in the fact that I don't really consider ACE demos a legit form of TASing, yet I'm arguing for ways to have more of them published, while most other people here consider them legit TASes and would want less of them published. There's a certain... cognitive dissonance in all this, for a lack of a better term. "They are awesome! Let's have less of them published!"
Or alternatively, we're saying "They're awesome, let's publish and highlight the best of them!" whereas you're saying "They suck, let's create a dumping ground for them below the lowest tier, and mix the good ACEs with the bad ones so people won't notice them."
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
andypanther wrote:
As for your idea of how ACE TASes should be treated, there's one thing that I'd like to know: Since you're basically suggesting that it should be possible to publish an infinite number of ACE TASes for one game at the same time, as long as each of them are "something notable and exceptional", should regular playarounds be treated the same way? As of now, it seems like ACE is treated like a variation of "playaround".
I don't think there's any reason that, assuming that a completely separate independent section of the site is created for tool-assisted demos, there should be some kind of artificial limit to how many such demos are published for a given game. Limit as in an actual number of them (of course there can be a requirement of notability, exceptionality and/or entertainment). Even if there were two dozen such demos published for a given game, as long as they are received well by the users, I don't see a problem why they couldn't be published. (Perhaps they could be ranked by ratings, as the current TASes are.) If a more "regular" non-ACE playaround is notable or entertaining enough... why not. Just publish it, in this new demo section. It doesn't hurt anybody. I don't see why there should be an artificial limit. There could still be "playarounds" that get to the actual moons category, using some (yet to be determined) criteria, and maybe those could be limited in amount, as it is now. Perhaps if some playaround doesn't get accepted to moons, but is still well received, it could be published in the demo section. (And yes, I do understand that all this would require a large amount of server-side development work, and I fully understand that this wouldn't be a small undertaking. It still doesn't stop me from dreaming.)
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Radiant wrote:
Or alternatively, we're saying "They're awesome, let's publish and highlight the best of them!"
And let's throw the previous ones away? Why?
whereas you're saying "They suck, let's create a dumping ground for them below the lowest tier, and mix the good ACEs with the bad ones so people won't notice them."
Why does it have to be "lower" or "higher" than anything else? It would just be a different kind of art.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Quality over quantity.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Nach wrote:
Quality over quantity.
That would imply that if somebody submits a new ACE demo for the game, and it obsoletes the current one, the current one wasn't "high quality" enough after all. How do you even measure "quality"? In things like any% TASes the measurement is rather simple: Check that the run does what it should, and just count the number of frames. With an ACE demo, how do you measure which one of two is "better" and "higher quality"? Why should one demo obsolete another? What happens if they are deemed to have pretty much the same quality? The old one remains and the new one is rejected, because the old one got there first? Or does the new one obsolete the old one because it's new and fresh? Why are people so eager to reject great works of art and technical skill, or throw them away? Sometimes I just don't understand this community.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I'm going to ignore ACE, as it's not relavent. We already have playaround rules and guidelines. Obsoleting is not throwing something away. It just no longer holds the crown. The pre-existing runs are still there and still viewable. Regarding accepting/rejecting. This site is geared for entertainment. Entertaining things is what we mainly peddle. Published movies have ratings, duration, organization classes, obsoletion chains. If material does not end up making use of most of the aforementioned things that define a published movie (or where it does not make sense to make use of it), then why is it a published movie? We have pages already to show off art or technical skill that one can do with games. Users can host projects on their own personal pages. All these projects can be discussed on the forum. YouTube videos can be embedded in the forum and every appropriate wiki page. Wiki pages can contain lists of stuff that need listing. I do not see why people want to https://imagery.pragprog.com/products/167/bksqla.jpg?1298589874
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA
I feel that there are three(/four) portions to an ACE:
  1. Setting up the ACE
    • /Reaching where it may be set up
    • Actual setup
  2. Creating the bootloader[/s]
  3. Delivering the payload
Payload choice around here had tended to "[visibly] set game to finished state". This has tended to a minimal infraction against the norm "do not modify the game".
Nach's RFC wrote:
Each new post arguing for such a concept highlighted to me more and more reasons why the aims and reasons of these [technically oriented] users did not mesh with what publications are supposed to be about, and what the site rules for publications aim to accomplish. Doing something difficult and novel programming-wise with a game is not a substitution for entertainment. Certainly not for the average viewer.
It entertains me. Most TASes entertain in a speedrun style. This is entertaining from an "appears to be a player playing with godlike proficiency"--a value that, oddly, decreases the more you know about TASing, and may increase or decrease depending on whether one knows the game in question. Many TASes entertain in a vengeance style. This one is very-much based on knowing the game's difficulty; some may be recouped from the rest of the audience by a skilfully-written submission text/subtitles. Numerous TASes entertain specifically because they seem to be playing the RNG like a fiddle. Again, this is more apparent when game (or genre) knowledge is possessed. All of these knowledge-based entertainment values seem to have been acceptable. The technical demonstration is, again, an entertainment value that goes up with knowledge. I find a certain irony in that our "recommended for newcomers" icon is a question-mark block, when the goal is accessibility. (Devil'sAdvocate) Why not, then, its opposite, permitting and marking that which has specifically Arcane Appeal? An answer, of course, is that people wish to think of themselves as skilled; this runs right up into Dunning-Kruger territory. I am, of course, biased, being a programmer.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
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Nach wrote:
I do not see why people want to https://imagery.pragprog.com/products/167/bksqla.jpg?1298589874
Quite ironically, I consider trying to shove ACE demos among tool-assisted speedruns, as if they were somehow comparable, exactly that. That's why I'm such a huge proponent of a completely separate and independent section of the site dedicated to these demos and playarounds that people are clearly interested in, but don't really fit into the concept of a speedrun.
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Warp wrote:
I'm such a huge proponent of a completely separate and independent section of the site dedicated to these demos and playarounds that people are clearly interested in, but don't really fit into the concept of a speedrun.
Have you checked the site logo recently? "Superplay", not "Speedrun".
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What do you need 3000 pixels on the right for exactly? I don't see what purpose it serves besides breaking the forum layout.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Radiant wrote:
Have you checked the site logo recently?
So what? That logo as absolutely nothing to do with site policy. And that's not even going into the fact that "superplay" is 100% a backronym invented years after the acronym "TAS" was popularized. I always love when people refer to that silly logo as some kind of counter-argument to anything. People have done it so often that I often think they are doing solely to tease me. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2105)
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I consider TASuperplay to include: * TASpeedrun: To beat the game as fast as possible. * TAPlay(-around): To be playful. (It might be arguable whether it has to beat the game, but I consider most April Fools TASes to be candidates for this even though they usually fail to entertain the audience.) * TADemo(-nstration): To demonstrate what can be done, often things hard to imagine, even better if used to be considered impossible (eg. Warpless Walkathon of SMB1). While TASpeedrun and TASPlay often conflicts to each other as the input time is so constrained in TASpeedrun, in theory they can coexist in one run if there are enough rooms for playaround. Nothing prevents TADemo to be a TASpeedrun or TAPlay as well if the input time allows too. So why not keep them as tags instead of partition tiers? This is just how I see the categorizations (should) work. It doesn't mean that we should accept all ACE runs or even April Fools runs. We have specific criteria for that acceptance/rejection matter (the Vault/Moon/Star/Gruefood Tiers, which need their own improvements/expansions if we want to accept "pure" non-speed-oriented TASPlay/TASDemo runs).
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do