I suppose there isn't a thread for this topic?
So far, there has not been an submission or publication of an actual Wii Virtual Console(or other official emulator) run, but what's the acceptability of runs of those "games"? Sure, there usually aren't enough differences between the vanilla game and the emulated version to make someone care enough to make an optimized VC run with Dolphin at the first place(it would usually be much easier to TAS the extracted ROM on its original platform when the ROM inside VC is special). However, there are notable exceptions, usually when the official emulator has non-trivial or even intentional inaccuracies.
A relatively well-known example is Zelda OoT on GC/VC. The details can be read here.
Another noteworthy example is FDS Castlevania II. I tried to TAS this game, just to realize the movie would be BORDERLINE UNWATCHABLE due to extensive loading time. However, the Wii VC version of this game has much shorter loading time and a run on this version would be much more enjoyable. This might be the case for several other CD based games. Would an official emulator run with bearable loading time be preferred over a vanilla game run in this case?
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I have seen many stances be thrown around on IRC. Most leaning towards the negative. I have not seen any exact rules stated, though I could have missed them or forgotten about it.
However, why don't you TAS a VC title in Dolphin and submit? It could serve an example for ruling. Even if it's rejected, it would still be available as a submission, and possibly on YouTube and gruefood delight, so it will never really be lost.
I don't know why anyone should oppose this, so long as Dolphin emulates the VC game in question sufficiently accurately. In principle I'm even open to the games having publications separately, if there are glitches exclusive to one version that make the runs appreciably different.
One argument, and one question:
- Wii Virtual Console speedruns seem to be A-ok in the real-time speedrunning community, so is there a reason why they shouldn't be ok in the tool-assisted realm?
- Would a TAS made of a VC game theoretically sync, using a real Wii and a tasbot connected to its controller port?
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The real question here is, why would anyone want to TAS an emulated game (by virtual console, an emulator with many game-specific compatibility hacks) inside another emulator (Dolphin) when they could just TAS the game directly in a superior emulator?
The real question here is, why would anyone want to TAS an emulated game (by virtual console, an emulator with many game-specific compatibility hacks) inside another emulator (Dolphin) when they could just TAS the game directly in a superior emulator?
The best answer to this is Ocarina of time, which have a glitch in VC thzt is impossible on a real N64. And I think it's not the only game in this case
[17:37:00]<TheCoreyBurton> It's N64 - it's ALWAYS bad news.
The best answer to this is Ocarina of time, which have a glitch in VC thzt is impossible on a real N64. And I think it's not the only game in this case
Would that constitute abusing emulator inaccuracies?
(Question asked only half-seriously.)
The real question here is, why would anyone want to TAS an emulated game (by virtual console, an emulator with many game-specific compatibility hacks) inside another emulator (Dolphin) when they could just TAS the game directly in a superior emulator?
The best answer to this is Ocarina of time, which have a glitch in VC thzt is impossible on a real N64. And I think it's not the only game in this case
Would that then be a Wii TAS or an N64 one? I'm fairly certain the revision of OOT used in Wii VC is the revision we already have pubs on. [the rest of this post was excised due to questionable proposals]
The real question here is, why would anyone want to TAS an emulated game (by virtual console, an emulator with many game-specific compatibility hacks) inside another emulator (Dolphin) when they could just TAS the game directly in a superior emulator?
The best answer to this is Ocarina of time, which have a glitch in VC thzt is impossible on a real N64. And I think it's not the only game in this case
Would that then be a Wii TAS or an N64 one? I'm fairly certain the revision of OOT used in Wii VC is the revision we already have pubs on. [the rest of this post was excised due to questionable proposals]
Wii VC's are technically Wiiware, so probably a Wii one? In the case of OoT, Gamecube version, which is an emulation of N64 version for most part, also works.
Joined: 3/2/2010
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Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Pokota wrote:
Stovent wrote:
Lex wrote:
The real question here is, why would anyone want to TAS an emulated game (by virtual console, an emulator with many game-specific compatibility hacks) inside another emulator (Dolphin) when they could just TAS the game directly in a superior emulator?
The best answer to this is Ocarina of time, which have a glitch in VC thzt is impossible on a real N64. And I think it's not the only game in this case
Would that then be a Wii TAS or an N64 one? I'm fairly certain the revision of OOT used in Wii VC is the revision we already have pubs on. [the rest of this post was excised due to questionable proposals]
The glitch only works due to inaccuracies in the emulation layer provided by Nintendo in the GC and Wii versions. Even if the same glitch can be performed in mupen/bizhawk it would be invalid as that tries to be an N64 instead of a GC/Wii.
I think that Virtual Console games are very similar to regular rereleases of old games on other systems such as Rockman Complete Works. As of this, I figure that similar rules should apply, and a VC TAS should be acceptable and publishable under similar circumstances as a rerelease. Because of this, OoT on VC would be listed under the Wii section of the site, and not N64.
Agreed with the above - but I don't want to see a profusion of pairs of movies which are basically the same on this site. This leads to a dilemma:
Let's say that an SM64 (WiiVC) 1-key TAS turns out to be a few frames faster than SM64 (N64), but otherwise basically the same. Now either:
a) They're treated as separate categories, and we have effectively the same run twice on the site (same reason as we don't generally have separate runs of American & Japanese versions of a game, and many examples of one localisation obsoleting the other).
b) WiiVC obsoletes N64. Now a user searching the site's movies by console is going to think "where the hell's SM64 1-key?"
b) WiiVC obsoletes N64. Now a user searching the site's movies by console is going to think "where the hell's SM64 1-key?"
As scrimpeh said, these movies will be published as wii games, so the can't obsolete movies from others platforms.
thatguy wrote:
but I don't want to see a profusion of pairs of movies which are basically the same on this site.
I agree with this.
But we can do it this way : because the site doesn't want too much categories per game, maybe the VC runs will do different categories.
By example, SM64 have "1 key", "70 stars no BLJ" and "120 stars" on N64, and we can have "16 stars" on VC
[17:37:00]<TheCoreyBurton> It's N64 - it's ALWAYS bad news.
The best solution to something like a TAS of OoT or SM64 being done on Wii VC and published here is to have it officially be considered a Wii game, but have it still show up in the N64 list, just with a note on the publication saying that it was done on VC. Most people who are looking for an SM64 or OoT TAS will check the N64 section, so just have the publication show up in both Wii and N64.
- Would a TAS made of a VC game theoretically sync, using a real Wii and a tasbot connected to its controller port?
This question still remains unanswered.
I suppose the answer is yes since Wiiware don't require CD reading.
I think another worth discussing case is SGB. It is well-known that the original SGB model has a faster frame rate than an actual GB does. This wasn't really an issue in the past since all 11 published (non-obsolete) SGB movies were made with VBA, which doesn't emulate SGB well(http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13623). Now, there are emulators with TASing functions that actually emulate SGB mode properly. Should SGB2 bios be preferred for its "correct" frame rate, or should vanilla SGB bios be preferred for its faster frame rate, which is the very reason NTSC roms are usually preferred over PAL roms?
To ask a slight aside question: What about Wii U Virtual Console? Is Wii U VC accurate to original releases or are there emulation quirks with this as well? I'm aware that, as of now, emulation of the Wii U is not up to TAS standards, but at some point it is likely to be, and the question will get raised eventually.
As a slight aside to that question, if Wii U VC of an original Wii game is identical, is it okay, for TASVideos standards, to take the game and TAS it in Dolphin and ignore the disc read speed limits imposed in Dolphin or would emulating the read of the game from source other than disc (I assume console hard drive, or however you would have the game stored on a Wii U) be not allowed for TASing it in Dolphin?
In short, since we don't have Wii U emulation, assuming the Wii U "emulates" the Wii identically for Wii games on Wii U VC, and since Dolphin is an acceptable Wii emulator, are we able to substitute Dolphin for a Wii U emulator for Wii U VC games that were Wii games, and use loading times other than disc since the game isn't technically on disc?
To ask a slight aside question: What about Wii U Virtual Console? Is Wii U VC accurate to original releases or are there emulation quirks with this as well? I'm aware that, as of now, emulation of the Wii U is not up to TAS standards, but at some point it is likely to be, and the question will get raised eventually.
As a slight aside to that question, if Wii U VC of an original Wii game is identical, is it okay, for TASVideos standards, to take the game and TAS it in Dolphin and ignore the disc read speed limits imposed in Dolphin or would emulating the read of the game from source other than disc (I assume console hard drive, or however you would have the game stored on a Wii U) be not allowed for TASing it in Dolphin?
In short, since we don't have Wii U emulation, assuming the Wii U "emulates" the Wii identically for Wii games on Wii U VC, and since Dolphin is an acceptable Wii emulator, are we able to substitute Dolphin for a Wii U emulator for Wii U VC games that were Wii games, and use loading times other than disc since the game isn't technically on disc?
Wii U is the same deal as Wii for Virtual Console. The Wii U version of Donkey Kong 64 runs with significantly less lag compared to the original N64 version, and contains some additional quirks.
A Virtual Console game is simply another release of a game. The fact that it happens to be implemented via embedding an emulator and ROM is nothing more than an implementation detail. If the Wii emulation is good enough, no reason why it shouldn't be allowed.
A Virtual Console game is simply another release of a game. The fact that it happens to be implemented via embedding an emulator and ROM is nothing more than an implementation detail.
I got the impression that "Virtual Console" is an (official) N64 emulator for the Wii, as in, it's an application that can be run on its own, and then you can launch N64 game ROMs (that have been downloaded from the Nintendo shop or wherever). Which would mean that the N64 games published for the VC do not come with an emulator and N64 system ROM in themselves (because they are part of the VC app).
I have to admit this is purely an assumption from my part. I haven't checked what the Virtual Console actually is. Is my assumption incorrect?
If my assumption is correct, then it raises interesting questions about running an emulator (official or not) inside the emulated system, and then abusing the inaccuracies of that inner emulator. (I know that real-time speedruns have zero problems with this, but TASes are managed under a bit different set of rules.)
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Warp wrote:
I got the impression that "Virtual Console" is an (official) N64 emulator for the Wii, as in, it's an application that can be run on its own, and then you can launch N64 game ROMs (that have been downloaded from the Nintendo shop or wherever). Which would mean that the N64 games published for the VC do not come with an emulator and N64 system ROM in themselves (because they are part of the VC app).
I have to admit this is purely an assumption from my part. I haven't checked what the Virtual Console actually is. Is my assumption incorrect?
It's not really correct. There is no Virtual Console app - you just download a game, which comes in the form of a Wii program file (WAD) which is the emulator with the ROM embedded inside it. So, essentially, the emulator itself is a part of the game's (re)release.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I suppose in that case MrCheeze's post has merit. If it's its own independent executable that does not need to be run inside a separate emulator, it could be seen as a different version of the game on its own right.
Of course then we have the other interesting question: At least in the past the idea of having TASes of (essentially) the same game for different systems has not gotten a very warm welcome. Usually only one version of the game has been accepted (although there might well be exceptions).
Given this, would we want separate TASes of the N64 version and a Wii VC version of Super Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time?
(Personally I wouldn't have a problem, if they are distinct enough to merit it, but there may be other opinions.)
I suppose in that case MrCheeze's post has merit. If it's its own independent executable that does not need to be run inside a separate emulator, it could be seen as a different version of the game on its own right.
Of course then we have the other interesting question: At least in the past the idea of having TASes of (essentially) the same game for different systems has not gotten a very warm welcome. Usually only one version of the game has been accepted (although there might well be exceptions).
Given this, would we want separate TASes of the N64 version and a Wii VC version of Super Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time?
(Personally I wouldn't have a problem, if they are distinct enough to merit it, but there may be other opinions.)
As far as this is concerned if they are distinct enough to be separated then they can be side by side. If not, I'd say whichever is faster. Which may change based on category.
