Again, MKDasher's input is used until beating Aroma Lady Jenna in Eterna Gym(because it desyncs at that point :P). He definitely should be added as coauthor.
There is a TAS of the same category on Nicovideo that is 18 minutes shorter than is run, but these two runs aren't really comparable by time. First, text differences between Japanese and English are massive. Second, I hate to say this, but there is no movie file for that run so its legitimacy is not verifiable.
Version Choice
While RTAs usually choose Pearl version, this movie uses Diamond version. One reason is the version exclusive Pokemon list(Murkrow in this case, see "The Team" section), the other reason is to... look a little more different than RTA, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The Team
Chimchar line is the main battle Pokemon for the majority of the run and learns the first two HMs in order to minimize the number of wild encounters.
Murkrow learns Fly and serves as a great helper in double battles. This is because most double battles are against Team Galactic grunts, who often use Pokemon of Bug and Fighting types.
Bibarel learns the other 4 HMs, as you probably expected. What you probably didn't expect is that it comes with a Oran Berry that will play an important role in the run.
Dialga is the main battle Pokemon during late game because... you wouldn't expect a Pokemon with Rock Smash and Cut to fight during late game, would you?
While Palkia is usually considered the better choice for speedrunning, Dialga isn't strictly worse than Palkia under TAS conditions.
Dialga's biggest advantage is its typing, which makes it immune to sandstorm during the second Elite 4 fight and saves a lot of time.
PP Management
Ethers at Mt. Coronet(Route 207 cavern) and Route 215, a Max Ether at Valor Lakefront, and a Max Elixir at Victory Road are picked up to replenish PPs.
Blaze Abuse aka the Ear Rape
As an almost unavoidable consequence of using the starter Pokemon for the majority of the run, HP is often kept low to abuse Blaze.
Unlike the growl skip trick in Gen 1, Blaze/Torrent abuse is a part of the core strategy and can't be simply forgone.
This is unfortunate. I'm sorry. Please bear with it. :(
HP Management
As mentioned in last section, the starter's HP is often kept low. In Gen 4 Pokemon games, if a poisoned Pokémon is brought down to one HP due to poison damage outside of battle, it will be cured of poison.
For that purpose, I made Gardenia's Roserade poison Monferno so that Blaze is activated by before Jupiter fight in order to OHKO Skuntank.
However, there are two instances during the run when I have to replenish Monferno/Infernape's HP.
The first one is right before the 5th gym battle. I used the Oran Berry carried by Bibarel so that Monferno can survive Drifblim's Aftermath while Blaze is still activated.
The second one is right before the 7th gym battle. I used a Potion so that Infernape can survive the Hail damage.
Luck and Micro-optimization
See this submission.
In addition, I saved and reset the game before encountering Dialga in order to manipulate its nature(a +Speed one in this case) and IVs, mostly because it would have a -Speed nature, which is a fatal disadvantage, if I don't do this.
Please note that the RNG is not scrolling at all before starting the Dialga battle so saving and resetting is the best way to change RNG in this case.
Potential Improvements
I should have bought Repels in Floaroma Town instead of picking one up on Route 205 and buying more at Eterna City.
Getting Pokerus early in the run might help. It probably won't help much with the current route since I'm switching to a new main battle Pokemon late in the game, but at least it won't hurt.
Giving Rival a one letter name can save a few frames. I'm not sure if it's faster to give Bibarel a one character name since it learns 4 HMs.
It might be faster to pick up the rare candy on Route 207 when I first get there. Giving it to Monferno right before the 5th gym battle can make it evolve and outspeed all opponents. This also saves the need of Oran Berry from Bibarel.
When DS emulation is improved to the point that it becomes possible to change the system time in DS menu, it might be faster to change the system time and get an ideal Dialga. This should allow me to skip Adamant Orb.
Shadow Claw turns out to be not very useful during the late game. It's not really more powerful than Dragon Claw(which is boosted by STAB and Adamant Orb) even when hitting enemies weak to Ghost type. Picking up TM34(Shock Wave) at Route 215 can make it easier to KO Empoleon(x2), Milotic, or even Bronzong, although it requires using Cut. Buying TM38(Fire Blast) from Veilstone Department Store can be another alternative, and it might be a good idea to buy a few battle items at the same time in this case.
Special Thanks
MKDasher for the any% run and all the lua scripts. This movie wouldn't happen without his work on this game.
YOU, for reading the submission text and watching the movie.
Noxxa: Viewer response was quite positive overall. There's some debate as to whether this movie should be published alongside the no save/reset movie or not, but from what I can gather from the topic, there's a slight edge towards publishing both categories - I find that there's some decent merit towards publishing both movies, because they do show pretty different strategies and team composition over the course of the runs.
There have also been some questions about possible improvements, but I don't find there to be any deal-breaking flaws in this movie. Therefore, accepting to Moons as a new branch.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6337
Location: The land down under.
I mean we do have "no save/reset" which you dub as "warpless" and this just feels like it shouldn't have been submitted.
I feel like this is just overdoing it in terms of categories.
If I had a choice between "glitchless" (no tweaking) and "no save/reset" I'd rather just have glitchless.
Also because you did bring it up.
Did you actually calculate the difference in time with text between the nico TAS and you or are you just writing that to save your bacon?
Since well...
I hate to say this, but there is no movie file for that run so its legitimacy is not verifiable.
That's not a legitimate reason btw.
(Will vote later, Shotgun for Publication if this is accepted.)
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
First, I have to note that "glitchless" or leaving the label blank would be more appropriate for this submission.
Second, I agree with Spikestuff that if I had to choose between "no save/reset" and this run, I'd prefer to have the latter; however I still hope to see both published, for a total of three active branches.
I'm looking forward to see a temp encode.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
I concur with Spikestuff and ThunderAxe31, between the no save/reset submission and this one, I would rather have this category instead, in favor of the other movie's category (assuming this movie doesn't run into other issues). And while the other movie does have some interesting strategies of its own (using Kazza and all), I'm not sure if it's worth publishing both categories, as there is quite some overlap in their broader goals.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Also because you did bring it up.
Did you actually calculate the difference in time with text between the nico TAS and you or are you just writing that to save your bacon?
Since well...
I hate to say this, but there is no movie file for that run so its legitimacy is not verifiable.
That's not a legitimate reason btw.
1. I say that mostly because that run abuses Quick Claw to make up Empoleon's slow speed, and there is no known way to effectively manipulate Quick Claw pattern. Unless the input file is made public, I will think that run is kinda fishy. Not to say that run seems to have an anonymous uploader so there isn't even a person to ask.
2. The run on Nicovideo didn't even mention which version of Desmume it used and the configuration. There can be lagging differences during screen transitions being accumulated as well.
3. While I haven't timed the exact differences caused by texts, this run is already 8 secs slower than the Japanese run by the time the professor asks you to name your rival. I hope this provides a basis for rough estimation.
Wow. You made 2 different runs of this game, with different routes/tricks used. Even if this (or the other run) gets rejected, this is highly motivating for me, since every now and then, I encounter arguements about what counts as "glitchless", and often (for me) people would write things like "skipping x would be slower by y and more/less entertaining", which without some video, I have a difficult time "picturing" it in my head how different it would be. That, (and among other reasons 😉) is why I really like what you did.
tldr I can't picture how different a run would be without actually having said run exist, so ty for making this.
This is vaultable regardless of entertainment, it's the any% glitchless everybody loves and knows.Good job, man.
Unless glitchless runs are not vaultable anymore.Thank you for making this! Happy new years, guys!
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
grassini wrote:
This is vaultable regardless of entertainment, it's the any% glitchless everybody loves and knows.Good job, man.
Unless glitchless runs are not vaultable anymore.Thank you for making this! Happy new years, guys!
"glitchless" never was a vaultable category. Only any% (which includes glitches) and 100%/full completion (which glitchless is not).
That said, while I've not seen this movie, I personally don't foresee entertainment rate being a deal-breaking issue for publication here.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I think all 3 of glitchless/no tweaking, tweaking but no void glitch, and void glitch deserve to be published. Branch names would be up for debate though. (I don't like "no save/reset" for the middle one because save/reset can be used for non-glitch stuff totally unrelated to the void. "Warpless" or "no glitch warps" would be preferred.)
Thanks for the comments. The submission texts are completed and a temp encode is added. I changed the branch name to "glitchless" because that's the most descriptive one afterall.
Zowayix wrote:
I don't like "no save/reset" for the middle one because save/reset can be used for non-glitch stuff totally unrelated to the void. "Warpless" or "no glitch warps" would be preferred.
Maybe, but "no save/reset" should work for now since I did avoid saving and resetting in that run.
I'd much prefer the other TAS over this one. There are a few reasons; I will try to go over them.
- This game is very long. The way the battle system works makes it seem very slow and prolonged, especially late in the run. Messages have noticeably long delays and it takes a long time for HP to decrease to 0 (similar to Pokemon Gold, which is understandably not very entertaining either).
In addition, the number of forced trainer battles is ridiculous. There are 97 forced trainer battles in this game (counting double battles as 2); more than the main-game of any game prior (except maybe Pokemon Crystal, which I didn't check). This is nearly twice that of Ruby/Sapphire. For comparison, the number of forced trainer battles for other games (glitchless) is:
Gen 1: 66
Gold/Silver: 92 in main-game, additional 24 in postgame
Ruby/Sapphire: 50 (51 in JP ver.)
Emerald: 83
So, this is why I prefer a shorter and more glitched version over a TAS which is not glitched and over 3 hours long. Strangely, Platinum has far smaller message delay, so it is theoretically possible a Platinum glitchless run could beat this TAS on time despite having more content.
- As Fortranm already mentioned:
Fortranm wrote:
As an almost unavoidable consequence of using the starter Pokemon for the majority of the run, HP is often kept low to abuse Blaze. Unlike the growl skip trick in Gen 1, Blaze/Torrent abuse is a part of the core strategy and can't be simply forgone. This is unfortunate. I'm sorry. Please bear with it. :(
I'm not even surprised, only disappointed. (The JP TAS with Piplup also abuses this too.) Indeed, about 34 minutes and 20 seconds of this run occurs during low HP alarm. Unlike Gen 1, it doesn't make up for it by glitching the sound either.
I never liked starters used as main battlers in speedruns/TASes. I secretly wish that non-starters would be main battlers instead, and will find every excuse to claim that they are faster than starters. Low HP ability boost sure doesn't help change my mind.
- This TAS to me appears to lack the polish of the other Pokemon TASes, including the other TAS and the JP TAS. Yes, it's Pokemon, and Pokemon is hard to TAS, but the standard has already been set. For example, mkdasher's input was copied all the way to the second gym without carefully considering the Repel situation, as mentioned in the submission text:
Fortranm wrote:
I should have bought Repels in Floaroma Town instead of picking one up on Route 205 and buying more at Eterna City.
It doesn't help that the submission text lacks some details that I wish were explained. Like, why was the Chimchar line used unlike the other TAS where Kazza (the traded Abra/Kadabra) does very well? Were there other Pokemon early in the game that could be used except that the Chimchar line is simply better? Would Quick Claw have helped with this TAS? ("We don't know how to manipulate it" is not a good excuse.) Is it really not faster to do two single battles in place of double battles whenever possible? Is it possible to use Potions at a different time (possibly to avoid low HP alarm) or find better ways of manipulating HP that avoid using Potions? Things like that.
----
Fortranm wrote:
You state "there is no known way to effectively manipulate Quick Claw pattern" based on posts from six years ago. 1) Just because it wasn't known six years ago doesn't mean it isn't known now. 2) Just because we didn't know how (or maybe we didn't try hard enough) doesn't mean others don't know how.
It is unclear how exactly the claim (as it is worded) would prove a video-only TAS to be illegitimate anyway.
In addition, the number of forced trainer battles is ridiculous. There are 97 forced trainer battles in this game (counting double battles as 2); more than the main-game of any game prior (except maybe Pokemon Crystal, which I didn't check). This is nearly twice that of Ruby/Sapphire.
I'm almost sure that Crystal has less forced trainers than Gold/Silver, but this is kinda off-topic. :P
FractalFusion wrote:
So, this is why I prefer a shorter and more glitched version over a TAS which is not glitched and over 3 hours long. Strangely, Platinum has far smaller message delay, so it is theoretically possible a Platinum glitchless run could beat this TAS on time despite having more content.
Platinum glitchless RTA WR is literally 2 secs shorter than that of D/P, so you are probably correct.
However, I think D/P deserves a glitchless TAS more than Pt does because you can't skip as much of the game play as you can in D/P. Another note worthy thing is that in Pokemon games starting from Pt (and up to the end of Gen 5, at least), battle RNG does not scroll automatically once a battle starts. Therefore D/P is the last Pokemon game(TASable game, anyway) in which you can rely on getting a crit for every move you use. You will need to rely more on natural type effectiveness starting in Pt.
FractalFusion wrote:
It doesn't help that the submission text lacks some details that I wish were explained. Like, why was the Chimchar line used unlike the other TAS where Kazza (the traded Abra/Kadabra) does very well? Were there other Pokemon early in the game that could be used except that the Chimchar line is simply better? Would Quick Claw have helped with this TAS? ("We don't know how to manipulate it" is not a good excuse.)
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/30445013993013368
Kazza wouldn't be faster for glitchless, and you can see this testrun from 2016 for reference(there is little to none micro-optimization in that run though). Needless to say, trading takes a long time, and leveling up more often means more time is spent on texts. Kazza is faster for "no save/reset" mostly because you get much less exp due to skipping a large portion of the game.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/42817382838721960
This is the testrun I mentioned in the submission text of "the other TAS". Machop is used until getting the bike, and this is when I tried to manipulate Quick Claw and fail. Machop, the classical OHKO machine from Gen 3, is available before the very first gym, but it won't be as useful as it was back then since Facade is not available as a TM until post-game even if Quick Claw pattern can be manipulated effectively.
In the end, the best choice for main battle Pokemon at this point is Chimchar line.
As a side note, Chimchar can learn Facade at Lv.31, but it's not worthy to keep Chimchar unevolved until Lv.31.
For the route being used in this run, it's not worthy to get Quick Claw if I can't activate it whenever I need it.
FractalFusion wrote:
Is it really not faster to do two single battles in place of double battles whenever possible? Is it possible to use Potions at a different time (possibly to avoid low HP alarm) or find better ways of manipulating HP that avoid using Potions? Things like that.
I'm kinda sure that doing double battles is faster when each of your moves can KO an enemy, and that's what happened in the run.
Since there are only two manual HP refill in the run, they can't really help solving the noise issue. It's not very feasible to actively keep your health between 1/5 and 1/3 mark.
I actually did use the berry a little early than necessary and use a Repel at the same time since I would have to waste time manipulating encounters any way.
FractalFusion wrote:
You state "there is no known way to effectively manipulate Quick Claw pattern" based on posts from six years ago. 1) Just because it wasn't known six years ago doesn't mean it isn't known now. 2) Just because we didn't know how (or maybe we didn't try hard enough) doesn't mean others don't know how.
It is unclear how exactly the claim (as it is worded) would prove a video-only TAS to be illegitimate anyway.
I admit that the way I worded it might be a little rude, but my point stands. While a TAS without input file is not automatically illegitimized, it can seem fishy sometimes, to say the least, especially when how certain things are done are not explained. I'm not very sure about how often would Piplup line be outspeeded without the help of Quick Claw, but there is no way to tell if the author of the run simply used RAM hack to give the starter a very high speed value to outspeed all opponents.
I'm kinda sure that doing double battles is faster when each of your moves can KO an enemy, and that's what happened in the run.
Double battles vs directly talking to trainers for two single battles are very close in time comparison and it could go either way. There are several factors that affect double battles negatively:
- Needing to trigger the ! on both trainers, as opposed to talking to them.
- Extra dialogs from having two Pokemon gain experience after each KO.
- Time spent because of the weaker Pokemon leveling.
- Potential experience lost from main battler.
- Extra time from needing to select target.
- When opponent trainers have differing numbers of Pokemon, needing the weaker Pokemon to waste time somehow when there is no target.
- In this TAS, extra messages from things like Gyarados's Intimidate (affects both Pokemon) and Croagunk's Anticipation (because of weaker Pokemon having Flying moves).
- Possibly more delays (critical hit, super effective) from needing the weaker Pokemon to KO enemy in one hit.
In fact, your warpless/no void run takes about 5 seconds longer to double battle the two grunts in Team Galactic Eterna Building compared to mkdasher's TAS, even though you KO on every move. (Though Kazza has a level-up in that battle, so it is somewhat closer to being equal.)
- Needing to trigger the ! on both trainers, as opposed to talking to them.
- Extra dialogs from having two Pokemon gain experience after each KO.
- Time spent because of the weaker Pokemon leveling.
- Potential experience lost from main battler.
- Extra time from needing to select target.
- When opponent trainers have differing numbers of Pokemon, needing the weaker Pokemon to waste time somehow when there is no target.
- In this TAS, extra messages from things like Gyarados's Intimidate (affects both Pokemon) and Croagunk's Anticipation (because of weaker Pokemon having Flying moves).
- Possibly more delays (critical hit, super effective) from needing the weaker Pokemon to KO enemy in one hit.
These are good points. My impression that doing double battles is faster comes from my experience of making the testrun back in 2015. I didn't know much about micro-optimization back then so the result of comparison might not be very accurate.
When opponent trainers have differing numbers of Pokemon, needing the weaker Pokemon to waste time somehow when there is no target.
This is not an serious issue in this run since most of double battles involve trainers with the same number of Pokemon. The fact that Murkrow knows Fly also helps.
Edit: Actually, the only double battle in this run involving trainers with different numbers of Pokemon is the one at Lake Verity, and this one is mandatory.
Another note worthy thing is that the PP for Fire Wheel is scarce. If I do as many single battles as possible, I probably will need to pick up one more Ether at Mt. Coronet. Doing this might allow me to save a few crits by using Fire Wheel more often at Mt. Coronet though, so the total net effect is hard to estimate.
Fortranm: I did some testing, and I am nearly 100% sure that whether Quick Claw works or not is determined at the beginning of the previous round of turns after you select your move; e.g. if you want to manipulate Quick Claw for round n, you have to time selecting your move for round n-1. I didn't test for the first round but I think it should be determined at some point after entering battle.
Just something in case you're making more Diamond/Pearl TASes. It does make manipulation more difficult though (since it occurs at the same time as manipulating the first move of a round for crit/range/miss).
Fortranm: I did some testing, and I am nearly 100% sure that whether Quick Claw works or not is determined at the beginning of the previous round of turns after you select your move; e.g. if you want to manipulate Quick Claw for round n, you have to time selecting your move for round n-1. I didn't test for the first round but I think it should be determined at some point after entering battle.
Just something in case you're making more Diamond/Pearl TASes. It does make manipulation more difficult though (since it occurs at the same time as manipulating the first move of a round for crit/range/miss).
Thanks for the information!
Quick Claw wouldn't be useful for "no save/reset" with Kazza route since Kazza will need to hold Zap Plate during late game. The same goes for any% glitchless with Chimchar/Dialga route for similar reasons.
If there is any chance that Machop/Machoke is used for any categories with the classical Guts abuse, you would need to manipulate Quick Claw for next turn while manipulating paralysis or/and critical hit for the current turn at the same time. Such route would probably be unfeasible unless the run is made with a bot.
