Post subject: What makes a game "TASable"?
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
In the recent Math Blaster submission somebody presented the suggestion that rather than define which genres of games are acceptable and which aren't, instead it could be better to define the characteristics that a game needs to have, in order to be acceptable for TASing (and publication here). This reminded me of how I once purchased a visual novel on Steam, thinking that it would be an actual video game ("adventure game" as they are called in Japan), and getting disappointed because it was indeed a pure visual novel with no gameplay elements of any kind. I wrote a negative review of the game, main argument being that it actually wasn't a game at all, even though it was being sold as one. I ruminated on what exactly makes a video game an actual video game, as contrasted to just a pure visual novel (that consists of nothing more than pictures and paragraphs of text, with no interactivity). I came up with these minimum requirements for an actual video game: Firstly, interaction: The program must be interactive in some manner. And this interaction should go a bit further than to simply wait for the user to click to advance to the next paragraph of text. This is tightly tied to the second feature: Choice. The player needs to be given some kind of choices, no matter how primitive, rather than the events on the screen happening in the same manner completely regardless of what the player does. This could be, for example, choice of direction of movement, or choice of dialogue. Even if these choices have no grand-scale consequences to speak of, the mechanic should still be there. Thirdly, a goal: A game should have some kind of goal that the player strives toward. It's not a question of how complicated or large that goal is (it could be extremely primitive and simplistic), but there should nevertheless be something that the player is trying to achieve, which is the point of the game. (This doesn't mean that the game must have an ending. A game could very well be endless, such as trying to play for as long as possible, with progressively increasing difficulty. The goal in this case could be, for example, trying to achieve the highest possible score.) Fourthly, challenge: Achieving said goal should not be completely and absolutely trivial. This ties to everything above: Achieving the final goal ought to involve player choices, and those choices should be even slightly challenging. It should be something more complex than simply "click to advance". (This doesn't mean that the game has to necessarily be difficult and require great skill or knowledge. Even a very easy game can still be fully considered a game.) Of course these characteristics are just something that define a video game, not something that defines a "TASable" video game, but perhaps something like this could be concocted for a definition?
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Joined: 6/30/2010
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Location: Zurich, Switzerland
I really like this idea of judging a game based on its characteristics rather than its genre. When I have to think of a game that is not "TASable", I think of something like the Ace Attorney series. I love those games casually, but they don't have anything that makes them "TASable". While it is possible to fail and get a game over by making the wrong choices, they are still the definition of a visual novel. A TAS of an Ace Attorney game is nothing but getting all the right answers first try, first frame. But when looking at the requirements you presented, Warp, I must conclude that Ace Attorney games are in fact "TASable". They have a clearly defined ending and won't just beat themselves by clicking "next", you have to make the right choices. To still consider such games not "TASable", you'd have to define more precisely how a game needs to be "challenging". If a game is only challenging in the sense that it requires you to solve a mystery, can this really be considered a challenge for a TAS? Even a realtime runner can just memorize all the solutions. In my opinion, for a challenge to be considered non-trivial for a TAS, it would have to either require some form of reflex-based gameplay or the Involvement of random elements.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Experienced player (704)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1799
Location: Brasil
The TAS of Ace Attorney fulfills every requirement of a game and speedrun.It will still be faster than any unassisted speedrun,because it's frame perfect consistently for hours straight.No one could top that,but we agreed here in the site that menu optimization is not real gameplay and there's nothing TASable in that game.It' a made up barrier,because even though there's skill in frame perfect button pressing,it's boring. However, there are games whose menu optimization is integral part of the gameplay,when saving frames for better management of items or even to execute specific glitches.We don't ban these games cause that's usually not what they're about.Pokemon isn't originally about going straight to the Hall of Fame. In my opinion, we just created this barrier because we don't want something with the worst entertainment value possible in the site,but that's not to say that the game itself doesn't have a way of a faster completion. Speedrunning has always been a balance between Speed, Challenge and Entertainment,after all,it's to entertain ourselves that this hobby exists.The most popular categories for certain games are not the fastest,but the ones which show off more of the game and occasionally put more pressure in the player.When games devolve into stuff like 0:00 pokemon runs and exploration glitches in LTTP, it's when people show how much they hate the lack of challenge these routes provide.Now consider TAS removes the challenge of precision as an aspect,and the "TAS is cheating" crowds begin to howl.A skip may be challenging,but isn't it skipping many challenges too and reducing the challenge conversely? Tl;DR:We're a sophisticated version of "TAS is cheating" crowd.If it can end faster,it's TASable.Even though it might suck and we might not enjoy watching it or have no interest at all. IMO. I don't even think certain normal games should be speedran at all,like Kirby(such a slow paced platformer is better for enjoying it normally,it really feels like a game better enjoyed slowly).Just a digression.
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
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grassini wrote:
IMO. I don't even think certain normal games should be speedran at all,like Kirby(such a slow paced platformer is better for enjoying it normally,it really feels like a game better enjoyed slowly).Just a digression.
What? Some kirby games are slow sure but not all of them, nor even many of them.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero