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Posted: 11/6/2005 12:58 AM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Hey, glad to have you here. I like your BWT06 strat, very smartly done. For BWT05, I wrote that I was able to beat it with 1 drop ship + 2 tanks, but I don't know if I just got lucky or if I am mistaking, but with 2 drop ships + 4 tanks it is pretty easy, this will be slower but still faster than 11 wraiths hopefully. But if you want to beat this level as fast as possible I think it is actually faster to beat the version where it starts by nuking you. BTW to clarify for Truncated, normally what you do in the previous level does not matter but depending how you beat BWT04 you either play BWT05A or B. In the version where it starts by nuking you I was able to send the 2 dropships it gives you as soon as I got them and almost kill the command center. Almost doesn't count but it proves a point that it should be doable in a time attack. Here is a more detailed description of the method used. From the beginning lift barracks + factory. Send factory to the right, send barracks somewhere safe, not sure where is best yet. Start mining minerals and make a couple of scvs. Basically you just want to pump marines until the drop ships arrive. After the dropships arrive it gives you more cash and scvs, make a acadamy and a vulture. Load drop ships with all the marines you have and scvs in last couple of spaces. Send the vulture off to kill/distract the ghost that lurks in the lower right. Otherwise that ghost will lock down the dropships. Sneak around the bottom right, and hug the right side and move up to the top. This part is kinda tricky, but if you can make it so your dropships split damage taken they will be able to unload everyone before dying, unload in the top right, but below the raised platform and out of range of that seige tank. Oh and meanwhile stim should have been being researched. Stim marines and move in for the kill go straight for the command center, possible make a bunker or turret or something too. This is pretty hard and I haven't pulled it off successfully yet, but it should get a time around 4:10, which is 1/2 the current record. For BWT01, what I meant with Duran is that once you waste 2 comsat scans he is invincible in the top left so you can just pick off units while you build a small army. Going straight for the CC won't work because the scv's repair. It would be pretty slow even if it worked because its only about 6 damage per shot because of concussive type. Almost it might be possible to sneak and scv past their bunker on top and start your own bunker to get some marines into early. In a time attack I think it might be possible to start the seige as soon as you get Duran, but in a real speed run definitely not, but I think an earlier attack can be done, plus the current vid doesn't use the pause trick to save about a minute, not sure if the pause trick works here though. Feel free to use any of these tactics for speedruns. Also did you see the strat for BWP07? It is really fast, too bad I won't be able to use it in the time attack, so I would actually be really happy if you could make a vid of that so it doesn't go unknown. My time was 1:49, but you will probably be able to do it a good 5 seconds faster. Edit:::::::::: On BWT5A it is possible to save some of those units that are supposed to die, as soon as you get em move em to the right, I don't think this will change the strat much, but a vulture + wraith can't hurt. On BWP7 I changed the strat a little and got 1:26, but execution was still not that great. At the beginning the comp sends a reaver in a shuttle to the left side, if you are fast enough sending all your men up the middle you can mind control this shuttle on its way back and fill it up with goon + dark archon. This method is alot harder so I had to use a save to pull it off. Note for the drop you don't actually have to get the dark archon up on the top platform it can be done from near the minerals.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/6/2005 6:12 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
I did some practice runs on BWT01 and BWT05 using saves. For BWT01, attacking the command center and getting +1 attack got me a 6:21. Slow, but still a minute faster than the current record. There was always 1 scv that went to repair the command center, but you just have to wait for him, shoot him once, then go back to attacking the CC. The scv will get scared and not do any more repairing. Shooting the scv doesn't trigger a comsat scan. The pause trick only works when the gameplay isn't frozen. BWT05A, I think it's possible with 1 drop ship and 2 tanks using a certain path. Instead of going all the way to the bottom right and up, you navigate through the middle. If you study the turret locations you'll see the path. This avoids that turret that you would fly over when going bottom right and up. The major problem is the ghosts along the way that will *almost* always lock you down. I did manage to navigate through the middle, but only once or twice out of 50+ tries. BWP07 strat sounds awesome.. I will try it out. edit, forgot to mention- For BWT06, when the tanks are being dropped, try to get them to immediately attack the Command Center, and then immediately going into siege mode. The CC has default 1 armour, so you'll end up doing 1500 - 116, 1384 - 276, 1108 - 276, 832 - 276, 556 - 276, 280 - ~5 - 276, just enough to destroy it.
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:16 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Wow I am surprised that it was as fast as 6:21. Another thing you could try is while doing the Duran thing, also make some men, and just go suicide style at the command center with scvs and all. They will probably do some damage before they all die and it can't hurt. For BWT5A, 1 dropship 2 tanks, would be slower though because you can't leave immediately. It gives you 2 dropships so minus well use em both. If you fly your factory towards the goal, maybe you could get a tank to pop out before your dropships go by though. Question on BWT6, would it be faster to take 4 marines + 3 tanks? I know 4 marines do damage alot faster than 1 tank, but they also take more time to unload, and possibly a little out of the way of dropship. I started trying to do some glitches that don't work in the recent version of BW. I got the command center slide thing to work to get it close to minerals. It requires an acadamy and 50 gas though, something that we won't have for most levels though :( But in the patch log blizzard mentions this glitch twice: 1.11 # Fixed a bug that enabled you to make a Command Center slide into a location by building a Comsat Station then canceling it due to lack of resources. 1.05 # Fixed the bug that allowed terran buildings to move after landing. Maybe the more generic sounding of the two doesn't require anything at all? But I haven't been able to do it and I don't know how to do it. Possibly it is impossible in the n64 version which is probably v1.04 or 1.05. I starting looking for v1.04 patch on the net so I could test things in an environment in which it will work if I do it right. But I can't find this dang patch anywhere, anyone know where I could find it? Also I got this glitch that allows you to build anywhere to sort of work. More experimenting is needed, but this has 2 potential uses that I can think of. Build a bunker in enemy base as your dropship is coming to drop off units. Build a factory or something in some area like a cliff that is above a target. Possibly a 3rd as build buildings to block enemy movements like mining minerals or just troop movements.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:24 PM
Post subject: Brood War 1.04
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I created a few old versions of the program a while back by clean installing and then performing old updates on the back-up of the original executable. I did this to be able to watch old replays, but I guess this is a good use for them as well. I've uploaded 1.04 for you here. EDIT: I've noticed that some patches (1.09) might cause some glitches if you've previously updated to the most recent version. I'm not sure if this is the same for 1.04, though. They weren't gameplay glitches, however, just a few small interface bugs.
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:29 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
Hmm sorry, I meant BWT05 B, the one with battlecruisers. Still, you should try navigating through the middle instead of the edges. BTW, I just did BWP07 in 1:10. After reviewing it, the execution looks very clean. It will be uploaded some time today.
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:31 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Omega: Sweet thanks. I swapped the 2 exes and started brood war, and in the lower right it said it was version 1.05 though. ballsofsnow: 1:10, whoa, very fast.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:35 PM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
You're right, it does say that it's 1.05. How strange. I got that one from the CD without applying any patch, and the CD comes with 1.04.
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:38 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Hmm, and also it still cost 75 minerals to make a turret (something that was introduced in a much later patch). I think I still have the cds somewhere so I can try installing from scratch too.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:45 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
You have to swap more than the exe. If my memory is correct, you have to swap starcraft.exe, storm.dll, patch_rt.mpq, battle.snp, and maybe standard.snp.
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:46 PM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
That explains why my replays didn't work anyway.
Posted: 11/6/2005 7:56 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Damn, the version I have is 1.05. But I might have an older version around somewhere (this one was one I downloaded so I could play on mac). Edit: Well I looked everywhere and don't have it. Also the n64 version is 1.04 because the acadamy cost 200. This is good news in terms of glitches. One other glitch that maybe useful is something about a scv repairing a marine.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/6/2005 10:10 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
I posted the vid of BWP07 at SDA. http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1118552930;start=570#576
Posted: 11/7/2005 12:39 AM
(Edited: 11/7/2005 1:53 AM)
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
ballofsnow wrote:
I posted the vid of BWP07 at SDA.
Wow very nice! Seems perfect to my eyes.. I can't imagine a TAS doing it much faster. It seemed like the computer was trying to help you with that shuttle :-) Flag gets credit as well of course :)
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Posted: 11/7/2005 12:48 AM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Hmm that vid did not work for me, I tried VLC, MPlayer, and Windows Media Player. I installed just regular SC v1.00 and I found out how to do the sliding terran building trick from here. To do it tell a floating building to land, then just hold shift and issue the stop command and then the move command. There is a problem though, in the N64 version buildings have no stop command. Their only options are move and land, so I don't think this trick can be done, at least without the attachment. But there is some good news, while trying to do this on the n64 version I was able to do another glitch, where you lift a building and build a unit at the same time. This normally won't work because in n64 you can't do both these at the same time, but as a building is landing tell it to move, when it lands it will lift off again and move there, but if you build the unit exactly as it lands the unit will build while it moves. This has very limitted usefulness, but none the less.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/7/2005 1:54 AM
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
Latest ffdshow plays it fine. I'm really looking forward to what you come up with flag :)
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Posted: 11/7/2005 5:16 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
I did a practice run on BWT01 with a time of 5:25. Here's what I did: - Start mining with scvs - Send tanks and marines to Duran base - Build a refinery - Send Duran to top left, position him between the 2 mineral patches, so as to block units trying to get through. - While getting gas, make some marines at Duran base. - Research siege mode - Send the 2 tanks + marines + scvs to top left, try not to attack anything on the way to avoid drawing other enemies. - With the 2 tanks, start pounding away at the Command Center. There's no point in getting +1 upgrade since you need the gas for siege mode, and the upgrade probably wouldn't finish in time. Try to time it so that siege upgrade is finished just as the 2 tanks make it to the top left.
Posted: 11/7/2005 5:41 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
I have been working on that same level, and I came up with the exact same strat lol. I managed to get a time of 4:38 using saves to undo errors, but a time of 4:10 is feasible if the tanks are in position right as seige mode finishes. Also now that it is done so fast, duran can shoot off a lockdown on a goliath if there is one in the top left and still have enough enery to remain cloaked. I tried doing BWT7 and running past as many fights as possible. For the first part just keep running past everything until you get to the part where Duran turns on you. The only place you have to kill something is near the end where the 3 guns come up and block Duran's path. If you position yourself correctly only 1 will be up, and you can just kill it, possibly a lockdown to help but its not needed. After you lose Duran it gives you another marine which can then in turn rescue more marines and medics. Now you will have to kill some groups of enemies here I think, but many you can just run past. Once I got to the part where the hydralisk attack I just ran for it and 2 marines made it all the way to the goal. Time was 11:12, I expected faster but oh wells.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/7/2005 6:15 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
Something I noticed when Duran is shooting the Command Center, the scv that repairs the CC consistently goes to repair it when it's between 1250-1300 hitpoints. I got a 4:15 and I'm happy with it. Video will be uploaded later.
Posted: 11/7/2005 9:17 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
4:15 good time. I'm checking out BWT4 now, it is a tricky one. By the way sorry to all who are monitoring this topic and just seeing a bunch of talk and no action. Since I am having problems with the emulator it could be a while before I really start to make the vid on the n64. But for now I am prefectly content to just try a bunch of stuff out on the PC. It is probably for the better anyways, as it always sucks to discover something when you are a long ways into the run and then have to go back and nearly start over.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/7/2005 9:29 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
Actually, after looking at my 4:15, there were some ugly mistakes in it and I decided to try again. Current record is 4:10. :) When you see my vid, you'll think it was easy to get that time, but I got lucky. The enemy units seemed to stay out of my way, whereas in other attempts I was just totally outnumbered. Sub 4:10 is possible, but it won't be me to get it.
Posted: 11/8/2005 1:46 AM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Why blow up shit when you can get your enemy to do it for you? This is a very funny strat that might not be feasible for a time attack and definitely not feasible for a speed run but none the less: In BWT4 scanner sweep bottom right where the nuclear silos are that you must destroy. There are 3 seiged tanks surrounding this area. There is a glitch that exist in older versions, not sure if it is in 1.13, it allows you to build a building anywhere. Now build a 3 turrets over each nuclear silo, and the tanks will destroy it themselves. This is expensive to do (1800 minerals in 1.04), but the command center slide can help with that. Couple of problems with this though. First I want to destroy that physics labs (no tanks around them) because that will make the next level faster (I am pretty sure). Second I have only been able to do this glitch if the area I want to build in is not to the bottom right of the start position of the scv, I have found one starting spot in which this works, but its all the way in the bottom left, there is a clear path to this actually. To do the glitch is actually not that hard, and I could probably do it as fast as I make the cash in a time attack. It might even be possible to cancel the building and get most of your money back. It might also be possible to be doing this from multiple starting spots at once making it really fast. To do this glitch get an scv stuck against a cliff and trap it with another scv, then tell it to move to the cliff, it should be kinda confused and actually face away. Now build anywhere you like, the building will start instantly and your SCV will float across anything to get there, but it actually doesn't need to arrive. You can't build somewhere that is unbuildable or somewhere you cannot normally walk to (like an island), but you can build over enemy buildings (stacking), if you do not have vision there. The easiest and most famous place to start this trick from is the very bottom right of The Hunters. This would be quite hilarious and I hope I can incorperate it. Edit: Oh even better you can put the turrets between silos and hit two birds with 1 stone.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 11/8/2005 2:14 AM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
BWT01 I don't know about BWT04, but I will try BWT05b with the 2 drop ships strat.
Posted: 11/8/2005 4:36 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
flagitious: It occurred to me that it might help to isolate what the emulator problem is if you post or send an .m64 file (of the first level or whatever you want, or even just getting into any level, if the menu manipulation is frame-perfect). That way I could compare the start of movie with what happens when I try to record the same thing, to see if the problem is there. The rest, if anything, would just be to determine if movies you make desync for other people. (I've been too busy to look at this or basically anything for the past few days and probably will be for a while longer... just letting you know it might help sometime.)
Posted: 11/8/2005 6:34 PM
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ballofsnow
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
Flagitious, I really like your strats. :D I just beat BWT05b in 5:39 with one dropship. I think I found a way to manipulate the enemy A.I. so that one of the ghosts that I pass doesn't use lockdown (most of the time). I'll describe it: When you choose to use the path through the middle and not the sides, you have to go up between two turrets. Now, when you go through those turrets you'll see a small block of high ground above, where you'd need a dropship to get to. Park your dropship there for a second or two. My theory is that this causes the A.I. to wait for a dropship to transport its ghost, instead of just waiting for you to go by. From the block you should be able to figure out the path.
Posted: 11/8/2005 6:55 PM
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Walker_Boh
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I just remembered a quite ugly game I played on Battle.net while I was active there. I think it was a ladder game and I really wanted to win that one. I faced a terran on Lost Temple and it looked like he was just messing around. I couldn't stop laugh at my poor opponent when I saw his command center sailing in over my base! "Gnyahaha, you are so gonna lose" I thought.. Then he landed on my main building! Instantly destroying it with his freaking building! I lost that game and really didn't enjoyed it ;) Even though, I dropped my jaw and it was kinda funny. Anyhows, this was without a doubt a hack of some kind. Ever played an UMS game with stacking? He used that somehow and that allowed him to land wherever he wanted with his command center because for him, there was nothing there. That is, to "shut the light down so you can build wherever you want because there is nothing there"-thingie. Now, my thought was if this could somehow be reproduced. I doubt it though, but stranger things has happend in games. It would be awesome if it was doable ;) If so, one could build an engienering bay (would perhaps be faster and safer than sailing around with the command center?) and then crush whatever buildings that must be crushed to achieve victory.
/Walker Boh
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