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Posted: 4/19/2018 7:18 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Just a quick note, it's actually 11 frames slower to alternate A and B per frame in Tug-O-Truck the entire time. Once you hit max speed, the next press actually slows you down significantly. After 30 presses in half a second, I was at maximum speed. Thereafter, the next presses should be once per 12 frames, at a paltry rate of 5 times per second average (the 31st press was less than these 12 frames, but the point stands). Actually, I'm curious how fast the realtime button mashing is. Can you mash 32 times in the first second? How about 36 times within the first two seconds? The ceiling might actually be low enough for realtime to consider slowing down the mashing after an initial furious burst. Of course, the feedback on this ceiling isn't obvious from the game's own display. Well, aside from suddenly slowing down, but it's not like a lovely clean buzzer with bright flashy lights and a speed bar indicating just how much awesomeness you just lost. The Drag Race is different. Mash A-B as hard as you can -- The ceiling has me pressing twice out of every three frames at peak speed. I doubt this ceiling is something a realtime should worry about.
Posted: 4/20/2018 7:16 AM
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ktwo
Active player (251)
Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
Even though I might not be fully up-to-date on button mashing, I'll try to reply from my perspective. I'm guessing the average of the bell curve would be around 10 presses/second. Specialist button mashers should be able to come up to 14-15/second, but I'm not sure if there is anything documented on players that can go beyond that. This is only for one button though. I don't think there is much of an advantage mashing two buttons, given they have to be pressed alternately, so I doubt you'd be able to score many more presses than you do with one button (possibly less, because the alternating is a pretty limiting requirement). Unfortunately, I don't have any means to attach a controller to the computer, mash in the emulator and look at the result. It could have been interesting though to see if I'm beyond any threshold that makes any of the mashing counter-productive. However, I doubt it, considering the mashing required, assuming that you described. I'm usually ending the tug-o-trucks with 91 or 92 left on the timer (93 is my best), if that's of any help.
Posted: 5/10/2018 7:53 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Something I should have done a while ago is set up my scripts to simply check my position against the last frame. Like what I did with the first game. First, the angles work in steps of 4. I could easily detect this in TASing normally. If you're driving at a slight angle away from the straight segments of road, you're not really any slower than driving straight along it. Probably a good thing for realtime, as your steering affects your facing in increments of 3 per frame, and it can get kind of twitchy. Second, the speed also work in steps of 4. It does, indeed, take the sum of the high bytes of engine speed, zipper speed, and nitro speed. If this sum is greater than 255, clip it into range. The steps of 4 is what's important, as it lets us know what we're really getting from our engines. Silver is just +2 from Black, regardless of vehicle, but it's enough to reach our "steps of 4" threshold. The real difference is more like 4 speedometer units rather than only 2, so Silver is actually that much more useful. When steering, you do lose one unit of speed (apparently it's a glitch where you keep almost max speed so long as you don't fall below it), so I'm losing some distance every time I steer with Silver. A good amount of distance is from driving straight anyway, so it's not all that bad. Gold would fight against these steering losses with an extra 1 buffer. Hyper is completely useless by comparison to Gold, aside from edge cases with acceleration and boost speeds. Mega is only one "speed unit" above Silver, but then there isn't anything else we can do with our flowing cash at that point. On a another note, since the 252-255 range is the absolute maximum, the sum of the +64 from nitro and +112 from the initial zipper velocity would leave only 76 more to max out, which the engine easily fills. The portion that exceeds 252 is completely wasted, and using a nitro on a zipper is not advised if you have other places to use one. Not much TASing progress, been sort of on other projects for a time, but I did plan out which money pick-ups to skip. As for that button mashing, 93 on the timer is still a rather short time. You're probably not at the point to be worrying about the maximum like a TAS would be.
Posted: 5/14/2018 10:06 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
User movie #47117049451414724 Now there's progress. Enjoy it. I'm confused, I thought there wasn't any invisible pick-ups. There's two nitros in track 24 that I pick up, but they never showed their sprite. Makes me want to poke through some bits of memory to see if there are other sorts of unseen pick-ups that just stay magically hidden like this. Track 24, after the first three 90 degree turns, there's a pair of zippers. Hug the far wall. You'll get two nitros, not counting the easily visible one between the zippers. You won't know you got two because the game doesn't tell you these things, but you got 'em. The dirt barely slows you down, and that diagonal wall will also barely slow you down. It is a bit of a maze trying to find spots where I can use the nitro between zippers without wasting much of it on exceeding 252 speed units. Red was staying pretty close to my tail on that last race.
Posted: 5/16/2018 9:31 PM
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ktwo
Active player (251)
Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
The speed steps of 4 make sense. When we discussed the motors, it seemed strange to me that Silver was only +2 over Black, since I knew it was a quite noticeable improvement. I actually knew about the hidden nitro around the dirt patch of race 24 (the other one was new to me though). Since I knew that hidden items were a possibility, I've been keeping my eyes open for other ones. I haven't found any though. But it's not like I've done any extensive research, so there could be more. Once again, excellent progress. A few comments: * You made a very wide turn after the two last zippers on the last lap of race 5. I'm surprised that turned out to be faster than slowing down a bit and cutting the corner. * I noticed you missed a few zippers to collect nitros. Couldn't an alternative be to collect another 100 (there is for example one before the bridge in race 15 that's not too far out of the way) and then sacrifice a nitro for one more zipper in race 10 or 14? * In race 21, you made a wide turn in the same spot as in race 5. I haven't done any detailed testing in that area, but I'm again surprised that that turned out to be the fastest path. * Am I imagining things or have you changed the approach to how you negotiate corners? It felt like you used to constantly bump into the corners before, while now you're much more often steering around them.
Posted: 5/17/2018 8:21 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Well, it does help to know about some details of speed. The steps of 4 is one thing. The cap of 252 from the sum of motor, nitro, and zipper is another thing. As for the two hidden nitros, the CPU actually does pick one of them up, so if you're not first there, you miss it. I haven't stumbled over other hidden goodies myself, so I'm wondering if these hidden pick-ups are a mistake. Alright! Criticism! Now to either explain myself or confirm the problem! Wide turn in race 5: The first lap, I had a nitro to pick up. This means avoiding a second zipper right before the jump. On the second lap, my excuse is that I hit the second zipper. So, I just hug the outer wall for "free" steering despite being in mid-air at the time. Mind, being at the outer wall is, rest assured, not taking that corner tightly, so it's certainly worth a few tests to see if slowing down the jump is worth it. Missed zippers for nitros: Race 10, the zipper I miss for a nitro is very close to another zipper I do hit, and is itself not exactly an ideal position to drive to. It's a small number of frames loss, likely less than 15 based on some quick calculations (I have zipper speed for 18 frames before that second zipper), but one to consider anyway. Race 14, I spend every nitro I had. Skipping a nitro means not getting its 30-ish frames of savings, and those zippers are pretty close together. There are four nitros, grouped in two pairs, that I pick up, and not picking one up probably means not picking the other. By my count, two ideal nitros beat one ideal zipper, and these zippers are among the least ideal due to being grouped so close together. That said, it may be worth checking if the CPU avoids the first pair of nitros for me to take on the second lap, as I don't need to spend them all that rapidly. This is simply not a race where I can skimp on picking up nitros, as I end with 0, and it's rather difficult to end with -1. Race 15, that money bag on that corner just before going under the bridge? Considering how tight I can take that corner, I see a pretty significant amount of distance between the corner and the bag. Okay, granted, Blue Car would have more time to push me if I take a wide turn to grab it, but that's a painful turn. ... Wait, you mean the bag that Blue Car takes in the short straight segment before going over the bridge? Ah, that one is not so bad, probably only several frames out and back. Might be worth a look. Wide turn in race 21: I don't like jumps. I keep wondering if I should slow down before the jump, trashing my speed for the entirety of the jump so I can turn earlier. In this particular case, the answer looks likely that I should trash the jump speed for a better cornering, as I do take it pretty wide. You can view a more extreme version of the speedy jump by looking at the CPU cars crashing into the far wall at that same spot. Change in corners handling: I'm more careful about how I crash into them. If I don't touch them, I don't lose speed. The instant I'm two units below maximum, tight steering will continue to decrease my speed, and hitting a corner is enough to trigger this chain reaction of a loss. One particular type of corner doesn't eat into my speed, and actually helps to speed up shift in momentum, but it's difficult to track the exact micro-positioning changes of touching the corner, and driving too hard into that corner will slow you down anyway because you have a bad angle, whether or not it affects your speed. In any case, I'm still trying to adjust my timing of when I make my tight turns so that, one frame earlier, I hit the wall. Actually, I also adjust positioning at times, so that one frame difference of this light positioning, I hit the wall. Once in a while, I do still intentionally hit a wall, like in race 14 after the six zippers hall, as I need the cornering much more than the speed. Also, probably the big thing is that most of my strategizing on these tracks are actually single-pass. Which is to say, I take whatever looks fast at the time, then drop things there and don't test other routes that might turn out faster. Basically, pioneer out something, get it under scrutiny of however many who want to look at it, then I can go back and patch any problems that, while I may catch a bunch of them myself, certainly wouldn't hurt to get someone else to help catch them as well.
Posted: 5/17/2018 9:29 PM
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ktwo
Active player (251)
Joined: 8/10/2008
Posts: 116
Yes, you're of course right about race 14. Skipping a nitro there wouldn't result in 250 more money. However, I think you're on to something when considering leaving some of the nitros for lap 2. The first 2 on that straight aren't collected by the other cars, but the last ones are. So there doesn't seem to be too many alternatives for nitros that are converted into money. If the one in race 10 is a bad candidate, the only other one that I can think of is one in race 5 behind a zipper. Skipping that one would allow you to take the double-zipper on both laps. Yes, the dollar bag in race 15 I had in mind was the one collected by the blue car. I'm not saying that the idea of "getting another money item, so you can skip a nitro" is better than skipping another money bag. It was just to throw it out there as a possible option. I've only played this game in "console conditions", so some conclusions might differ from "TAS conditions". However, slowing down before a jump to make a tight turn was faster when I tested it. I'm not sure there is much for you to pick up by looking at my routes, but since there aren't many other resources for this game, here is the link to my pb: http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/rcproam2-20180426/rc2_3118sda_HQ.mp4 .
Posted: 5/17/2018 11:04 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
I'm going to make a few observations for RTA to consider. Steering. I have noted that the car's momentum shifts slightly faster based on how different your facing and momentum is. This means you will turn faster if you oversteer then quickly correct it after the turn. It becomes less important the better your tires are. It doesn't seem too tricky to oversteer a bit in RTA conditions, if you think you need a little tighter cornering. Car choice. Well, it affects the letters in some way, as instead of looking to maximize letters for P1 to collect, you're maximizing letters for other players. I've chosen yellow car to aid in luck manipulation, although I'm not entirely sure it was needed. Also, it does affect when CPUs can cheat their letters -- Instead of races 2,3,4, it could be races 1,3,4 if you pick P2. In any case, you would need the Four Score for P3 and P4. Speed. I've already told you all you needed to know, and we already came up with a motor plan that maximizes this even before we knew of the steps of 4. I suppose the only thing then is finding spots to nitro that doesn't coincide with a zipper, as the two together hits the speed cap. That is a pretty good run, though. My suggestions probably won't save much time or luck frustration, but if you want to put in the extra effort, they're thoughts to consider. I probably should look over my run and start constructing some notes. Race 1: Right at the very start, I hop on that hill at only 102 speed, when eight more frames of acceleration gets me 104. Of course, eight frames means I'm not past that hill, and it would take 200 frames to make up for losing about 800 distance units with an extra 4 speed. Actually, it's a bit more optimistic than that, but I don't think the hop takes more than a second or two. Race 2: This is where I get a bunch o' letters. Nothing of note, aside from tricky manipulation that would inconvenience anyone trying to improve race 1. Silver Motor has a tight need, so any awkward collections done here were necessary. Race 4: Just a reminder to anyone improving earlier races, this is another tricky letter manipulation spot. Race 5: I'm focusing on that cruddy jump spot before that turn for this note. First lap, I get the nitro. Second lap, I use zipper twice. First lap, I pretty cleanly take that hairpin, but that's because I have less zipper speed, and dropped the motor down to 112 speed on top of that. Second lap, I basically thought 'forget it' and took the outside wall without bothering to try slowing down after the second zipper, or skipping said zipper a second time. It's an inconveniently placed boost, that's for sure. I actually do have time to stack a nitro on top of that second lap jump (well, I do need to waste a frame or two...), so taking the speed to a further extreme is possible. Not sure if that would be a good answer for tightening up our money route, but it's possible. This one jump, I tell you... Race 6: Our last tricky letter manipulation zone. Manipulate the two "random" letters to be I, and all others are different. Fail, and you delay car upgrade by two races minimum. This reminder is my only note for this race, for now.
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