So SDA doesn't get a lot of shout-outs these days. It used to during GDQ marathons and such. When it was first founded it was the only site that hosted speedrun videos for almost any games. Speedrunning was also new, and cool in and of itself.
The years have rolled by and new forms of running emerged, namely those marathons and other live streaming. Direct competition is easier. These and other reasons make SDA a less likely choice for many runners. However, its remaining users still see it having a distinct purpose that isn't really different from that of TASVideos. To serve an audience a feed of quality-ensured speedruns without anything extra... well except for commentary which is still more than appreciated in many cases.
I've written a long answer to the question "why SDA isn't a poor man's Speedrun.com". I'm sure most people here will appreciate where we're coming from, and I'm obviously really just writing this here for all the new folks that may not actually have been exposed to SDA as a concept.
If you have real-time runs as well as TASes, keep sending them our way! Feel free to check out our verification listing from time to time. It's much-appreciated!
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Hi Svimmer,
I'm not sure I understand what niche SDA is trying to fill in speedrunning. The post you linked says that there's a gap between SRC's community-driven RTA boards and TASVideos' curated TAS archive. This gap involves curated human and TAS "pure speedruns," just bare audio and video of the record.
If this is the standard for SDA, why make it ridiculously difficult compared to other sites to submit and watch your runs? One of my favorite SDA submissions is a Pokemon Ruby segmented run. It's quite difficult to watch because the video is split across the 40 segments. With the right encoding, the video could easily be stitched together and hosted on YT, BitChute, etc. And because the submission process is so complex, the video is now so outdated that it's been surpassed by single segment human runners. Despite this, the segmented 1:54:21 is still claimed on SDA as the "best time."
Clearly the community driven boards have a better understanding of which runs are legitimately the fastest in a given category, so "pure speedrunning" under the definition in that post is far too restrictive. Curation from what I've come to enjoy at TASVideos rather helps ensure a standard for game/branch/category quality, so that runners trend towards bigger game communities and gain some focus towards common goals.
A site gap that I do think exists is in community-driven TASing. TASVideos isn't an amazing place for human theory TASing (TASes that try to optimize the current human capable RTA route), and sometimes their branches don't line up well with SRC community defined categories.
A site gap that I do think exists is in community-driven TASing. TASVideos isn't an amazing place for human theory TASing (TASes that try to optimize the current human capable RTA route), and sometimes their branches don't line up well with SRC community defined categories.
I think that another thing is that TASVideos is a bit too restrictive when it comes to different speedrunning categories for a single game, and I'm not really sure why.
Hi Svimmer,
I'm not sure I understand what niche SDA is trying to fill in speedrunning. The post you linked says that there's a gap between SRC's community-driven RTA boards and TASVideos' curated TAS archive. This gap involves curated human and TAS "pure speedruns," just bare audio and video of the record.
If this is the standard for SDA, why make it ridiculously difficult compared to other sites to submit and watch your runs? One of my favorite SDA submissions is a Pokemon Ruby segmented run. It's quite difficult to watch because the video is split across the 40 segments. With the right encoding, the video could easily be stitched together and hosted on YT, BitChute, etc. And because the submission process is so complex, the video is now so outdated that it's been surpassed by single segment human runners. Despite this, the segmented 1:54:21 is still claimed on SDA as the "best time."
Clearly the community driven boards have a better understanding of which runs are legitimately the fastest in a given category, so "pure speedrunning" under the definition in that post is far too restrictive. Curation from what I've come to enjoy at TASVideos rather helps ensure a standard for game/branch/category quality, so that runners trend towards bigger game communities and gain some focus towards common goals.
The post I linked doesn't mention TASVideos at all.
"Why make it ridiculously hard": nobody deliberately made anything harder than necessary. It gets kind of frustrating being leveled this crap at like it's just a question of "why won't somebody do something". What we're able to do with the backend is a factor of what skills our volunteers have, and their available time. There are so many people like you who just can't fathom this.
If you used your imagination, you might recall there was a time when uploading 1+ gigabyte files was not possible or reliable. I'm not the most technically oriented but I'd imagine there were reasons why files got split (or more like were left in that state).
We don't replace runs with ones that haven't actually been submitted to us any more than TASVideos asks for permission to post runs off YouTube. The submission process is a drop in the ocean compared to the effort put into a) researching b) routing c) grinding out and d) documenting and annotating your runs. I'm looking FORWARDS to getting to do that when I'm finished with my first run.
"the community-driven boards have a better understanding of the fastest runs so pure speedrunning under that definition is too restrictive": These are two completely different questions. 1) SDA never claimed to host just WR runs any more than SRC does, speed is not the only factor for getting a run accepted. That having been said the discussion about whether we could make this more obvious to casual visitors has been had, and I personally do think there are probably ways to improve on that. I still don't really care if there is a faster run out there, not everyone does. The communities can get a bit self-important sometimes (to say the least). 2) Setting up the necessary A/V recording in OBS is actually pretty simple. 3) That's not even what I meant by "pure speedrunning".
"Curation from what I've come to enjoy at TASVideos rather helps ensure a standard for game/branch/category quality, so that runners trend towards bigger game communities and gain some focus towards common goals." This is one of SDA's purposes and a part of the verification process. The reason is nothing to do with the runners though, but rather the audience not wanting to see too many lesser-quality runs with arbitrary definitions. I'm sure you were implying the same.
Thoughts comparing and contrasting SDA and SRC.
-SRC
Ranging from NO verification to super onerous community based rules, this is usually the ultimate choice for convenience other than just posting it on a video streaming site. A game can have their each individual customized page and forum. Each game has a community and if the community mod(s) do not agree with your submission it will not be on the site. For smaller games this means easy abuse by moderators, while more popular games are better managed. However due to the mostly small number of people watching most submissions bad runs do make it through. This system of wildly varying verification means more popular games are full of garbage submissions with only the top submissions really getting any attention while smaller community games can have runs submitted and judged by the very same person. On a small board if a mod moves on, then some random can ask for mod power and get it and then change the board rules. The bottom line is that almost every run on SRC outside of well maintained longer lasting communities is subject to suspicion of invalid times and cheating. I have not had any issues with mods or the site other then having to reset my password since it seems they get hacked every couple months, but the Site forum seems full of that interpersonal and submitter vs mod drama.
-SDA
One of the first speedrun sites that aims at having quality speedruns that were recorded on original unmodified hardware (system and controllers). Having world records for submissions is not necessary. The verification process is split through a private and verification process with popular games being grabbed for private verification and obscure games usually failing to the public verification. As of several years ago this process took about 6 months from submission to publication for more obscure games. I believe the process was shortened in recent years. Do not really remember there being a lot of drama going on in the forums, which was good. If you want to look at verified submissions that were done using original hardware this is your best bet. I gave up submitting to SDA because my aged original hardware is dead multiple times over, and the publication process took too long.
Overall
SRC far more accessible, sometimes to its detriment, and modern than SDA that near anyone can use and customize their game boards.
SDA is slow and clunky, but regardless of popularity each game has verified runs on original hardware.
"Thoughts comparing and contrasting SDA and SRC."
The thing is... it doesn't have to be either/or. In fact we have nothing against SRC. We, also, plainly see what it's good for. It's just a lot of people really don't get SDA, or don't know about it.
To be sure, in theory we still have the two-tiered system of verification but virtually no runs get verified in the private "tier". We could really use more active verifiers as well as more runs and general volunteering.
Yeah so the verification etc. publication cycle is faster these days but that's not the point. The point is if you believe in SDA's philosophy, but you're not even willing to wait a couple of months before publication (and we're not even telling you you can't submit it somewhere else as well), what exactly have you done to earn such luxury treatment? Can you realize all these sites are built on somebody volunteering their time to do things other than what their first choice might otherwise have been?
Does SRC actually save any videos in their site, or is it always offsite? Would be really unfortunate if a runner either deactivated their account on youtube/twitch, or deleted the video. It probably doesn't affect popular communities given that chances are, it has tons of runs, but for less known games it's frustrating. eg. "There's a known improvement from this one deleted video, but have no idea what it was."
SRC doesn't save any videos on their website which can cause problems when videos links get deleted. However there is resources like tools, saves, patches and time splits which can be uploaded, which is better than uploading it to some external link which may expire or get deleted.
The fact that both SDA itself and also Archive.org host every run on SDA is one of our selling points for sure, but again something a lot of people don't want to think that far ahead about. With stuff like article 13/17 in the EU... can we rely on gameplay videos being kept on YT even if the runner didn't delete them? Let's plays, longplays, and speedruns and TASes. I guess for now they're going to be region-blocked only.
Mitjitsu wrote:
SRC doesn't save any videos on their website which can cause problems when videos links get deleted. However there is resources like tools, saves, patches and time splits which can be uploaded, which is better than uploading it to some external link which may expire or get deleted.
I don't know if that's a comment on SDA or not but something most might not know about is you CAN also upload such files onto the SDA server if you're building a wiki in our Knowledge Base. Some people have also provided us stuff like blooper reels. If it's to do with the run, and not overly bloated, we should be happy to host it.
Although one point I never liked in SDA was how only the current fastest run would be allowed for a category. Previous runs might be useful in the future and those get removed.
Although one point I never liked in SDA was how only the current fastest run would be allowed for a category. Previous runs might be useful in the future and those get removed.
They do NOT get removed off archive.org. If we didn't remove them off our server that would mean even more server costs.
Past that, I swear I once posted a thread on the topic of "do we need more than one run per category" on SDA. I just can't find it now. The main point I made in it was simply... there's almost always a better way to store any information the old run might have held. It's not efficient. You'd have to argue something else here.
SDA is a thing of the past, it had the necessary rules for the time it was created but even then there was still cheating; a huge audience and community peers reviewing is way safer for run verifying than having a small number of verifiers for obscure stuff.
The process was convoluted because it was the only way it could be,but it's not relevant anymore.
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto.
TAS i'm interested:
Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS?
i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
SDA is a thing of the past, it had the necessary rules for the time it was created but even then there was still cheating; a huge audience and community peers reviewing is way safer for run verifying than having a small number of verifiers for obscure stuff.
The process was convoluted because it was the only way it could be,but it's not relevant anymore.
Cheating is, as far as I'm aware, an extremely rare occurrence, and if you actually knew what you were talking about, if you really want to cheat, there's not much anyone can do about it in some cases. SRC, just to compare, has had FAR MORE cases of abuse if you also look at times when the moderators were waving each other's (or their own) runs through.
Also an argument based on the size of the userbase completely ignores the actual fundamental differences between the sites. If SDA was the popular site, you'd be saying the exact same thing about SRC right now. And WTF are you even talking about with "having a small number of verifiers for obscure stuff"? Do you mean small games shouldn't be run at all then?
You've hit both buzz phrases though: "Thing of the past" AND "not relevant anymore". You're a very specific kind of sheep, you know.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Svimmer wrote:
theripper999 wrote:
Although one point I never liked in SDA was how only the current fastest run would be allowed for a category. Previous runs might be useful in the future and those get removed.
They do NOT get removed off archive.org. If we didn't remove them off our server that would mean even more server costs.
After TSA was exposed, all of his runs were deleted from both SDA and archive.org. So this problem technically exists there as well.
For smaller games on SRC, There's almost certainly cheating going on as a result of mods verifying their own or their buddies runs. However, for the more popular games there's more scrutiny, and you're much less likely to get away with cheating compared to SDA. As others have pointed out the core problem SDA has is it's slow verification process. I was able to verify and accept a run on SRC within 24 hours, whereas the same run would have taken 2 months to appear on SDA.
EDIT: About timing methods on SRC, yes timing is done by the runner, but it can be edited by a mod should the timing methods be wrong or inaccurate. Should it be necessary, I'd just download the run and do a frame count in VDub.
Past that, I swear I once posted a thread on the topic of "do we need more than one run per category" on SDA.
I like the fact that speedrun.com is actually a full list of entries for a game, rather than just the best entry and nothing else. You can see where everybody stands (especially when it comes to a very popular game), and you can watch their runs if you want.
It wouldn't be the first time that I check the rankings on a particular game at speedrun.com and notice that "oh, this guy I have been watching at twitch has made a new PB. I have to see this." This even when said person is on 3rd place or whatever.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Tompa wrote:
After TSA was exposed, all of his runs were deleted from both SDA and archive.org. So this problem technically exists there as well.
Wait what?! Tell me more about this :))
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
After TSA was exposed, all of his runs were deleted from both SDA and archive.org. So this problem technically exists there as well.
I'm not sure how this ties in with what I said? I didn't say cheating has never happened on SDA, just that people tend to overdramatize this. It's like saying because some drugs always make it through border control, sniffing everyone with one of those dogs is pointless? It's still more likely on SRC.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
My comment had nothing to do about cheating, but that all runs aren't kept at archive.org, which was also what I quoted so it should have been obvious =).
For smaller games on SRC, There's almost certainly cheating going on as a result of mods verifying their own or their buddies runs. However, for the more popular games there's more scrutiny, and you're much less likely to get away with cheating compared to SDA. As others have pointed out the core problem SDA has is it's slow verification process. I was able to verify and accept a run on SRC within 24 hours, whereas the same run would have taken 2 months to appear on SDA.
EDIT: About timing methods on SRC, yes timing is done by the runner, but it can be edited by a mod should the timing methods be wrong or inaccurate. Should it be necessary, I'd just download the run and do a frame count in VDub.
For the more popular games, won't an SDA submission also get more scrutiny? Isn't it likely somebody will know something about about the game amongst the viewers? And if anything, doesn't the cheater have more of an incentive to try to get a run through on the big popular site than SDA?
Seriously, you just don't have a clue. Most of the time, we'll check whether there's a leaderboard on SRC for the game in question. Most of the time we'll see that the same run has been posted there. Thus the level of overall scrutiny is HIGHER for that run if it's passed both the SRC check AND SDA verification.
Yes, there's a necessary delay when publishing on SDA. This does not invalidate SDA in the slightest. You just don't get what the site is for. It's a curated feed of speedruns, and its audience is not those people who will go out of their way to follow the game in question, watching every new PB as they're uploaded. It's a different audience altogether.
Timing on SRC: I don't know why you've even brought this up.
I like the fact that speedrun.com is actually a full list of entries for a game, rather than just the best entry and nothing else. You can see where everybody stands (especially when it comes to a very popular game), and you can watch their runs if you want.
It wouldn't be the first time that I check the rankings on a particular game at speedrun.com and notice that "oh, this guy I have been watching at twitch has made a new PB. I have to see this." This even when said person is on 3rd place or whatever.
Again, these are not mutually exclusive. Besides, you don't do that for every game do you? Nobody has time for that. What about some game you played long ago that you're not that interested in but you'll still watch one or two runs? Wouldn't you like to know before you start watching that the runs are worth seeing?
So...how's SDA nowadays? Is there anyone attempting to change the site layout, or implement some requests such as "show past X # of runs, even if it's only hosted on archive.org? Or is it impossible due to incoherent site code? (Not saying coding is easy; I'd imagine it look something like fixing this)
So...how's SDA nowadays? Is there anyone attempting to change the site layout, or implement some requests such as "show past X # of runs, even if it's only hosted on archive.org? Or is it impossible due to incoherent site code? (Not saying coding is easy; I'd imagine it look something like fixing this)
Every time someone has said they'd do some volunteering in this area (or most others), it is my best knowledge that they've never tended to stick around very long – at this point it's going to be a hassle to convince Uranium Anchor to even let someone have the access they'll need if they've not put in some work on something. The density of programmers amongst real-time runners is probably a good deal lower than amongst TASers to begin with.
So it's very limited what the more active "layman" staff members can do. Personally, I've got a long-term commitment to import all the rest of the runs into the automated backend so they can at least all be processed at the same time. I'm still not one to buy into this "it WOULD be great if only bla bla" rhetoric. It's the only site of its kind, it's the only site of its kind we need. It's the philosophy that matters. Good shit takes effort.
