This is currently under development, so the things that are written here are outdated. Look in the discussion for more up-to-date info.
Iji is an action-packed strategic platform shooter with a detailed story, large levels with multiple paths, powerful bosses and lots of secrets. There are alternate gameplay events, dialogues and scenes depending on what you do, a wealth of extras and bonus features, and seven stats to upgrade through a leveling system. Iji herself has superhuman strength and abilities, and can crack Nanotechnology, use her enemies' most devastating weapons against them, and be a pacifist or a killer - the story adapts to how you play.
Perhaps All Items is not the greatest name for this category, but 100% isn't accurate either, though it's about the closest thing to it you can do. The rule is that you need to collect all Ribbons, Posters and Supercharges. These are all optional, Ribbons and Posters don't give you any benifits but Supercharges give you 1 Skill point. I use Normal difficulty because on the game's hardest difficulty (Ultimortal), an All Items run is impossible because you cannot get most posters/supercharges since they require nanoweapons which you cannot get. On the Hard and Extreme difficulties, an All Items run would be far more time-consuming, due to required Nano farming and other factors, without a significant gain in difficulty under TAS conditions. This would result in a far less entertaining movie in comparison to one on Normal difficulty.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'm asking questions that help to find out which items fit our site's definitions of full completion, and which don't. If you can't collect all health, armor, and ammunition items, we can't include them in "all items", since it'd obviously be not "all", but "most". "Most items" can't be clearly and objectively defined, as new tricks or route solutions may lead to collecting more in future. So "most items" won't work as full completion.
My definition suggestions were a part of brainstorming while not knowing the game well. The result is that we can just apply the rule I quoted and see what fits, and whether it's bad or good to include.
From your definition suggestion above, we boil it down to these:
All posters, ribbons, supercharges
Trapmine
All armor and jump upgrades
Yukabacera’s scrambler
Weapons can't be a part of it since you can't collect them all in one playthrough.
Even then, is there anything else we're forgetting?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
What I am getting at is that collecting all nano/armor/health pickups (not upgrades) isn't a good idea. Think of these as a means to an end. They do not count towords anything, health and armor pickups only make the game easier and routing for minimal possible nano pickups is in my opinion a lot more challenging and fun to watch than going to great lengths to get them all (not that you could due to the level cap). I don't see why getting all exp and health pickups would be necessery for this goal. In other games you don't need to collect all of the exp pickups/kill all enemies/get all coins or whatever in order to get 100% completion. Having the category collect all unique items that can be collected whithin a single playthrough migth be a better way of putting it. For this reason while it is true that you cannot get all guns, yoiu can still get the Banana gun, which fits into this category. This would serve as a 100% of a single playthrough.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Full completion means there's nothing more to gain within the criteria. You can't get all weapons, and you can't get all nano/armor/health pickups. It means their collection can't be full. You can't collect 100% of them. So they can't be required for full completion.
Whatever else you collect in addition to fully collectable ones, can be a speed/entertainment trade-off. It just has to actually increase entertainment. Which means it doesn't have to cost too much time. This is a subjective balance.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Full completion means there's nothing more to gain within the criteria. You can't get all weapons, and you can't get all nano/armor/health pickups. It means their collection can't be full. You can't collect 100% of them. So they can't be required for full completion.
Whatever else you collect in addition to fully collectable ones, can be a speed/entertainment trade-off. It just has to actually increase entertainment. Which means it doesn't have to cost too much time. This is a subjective balance.
In that case you could argue that my original TAS does just that in making sure that the route is different enough from any% and collects the items which you can collect all of. The trapmine and scrambler don't necessarily add on aditional entertainment.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Woops, I didn't notice you've changed the branch. I've been talking about "all items" for quite a while. To be fair, "collectables" sounds kinda ambiguous to me. It feels like an arbitrary middle ground between unlockables and items. How do we clearly and unambiguously define a collectable? The definition should be easy to apply and see if an object belongs or not.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Woops, I didn't notice you've changed the branch. I've been talking about "all items" for quite a while. To be fair, "collectables" sounds kinda ambiguous to me. It feels like an arbitrary middle ground between unlockables and items. How do we clearly and unambiguously define a collectable? The definition should be easy to apply and see if an object belongs or not.
It is ambiguous but that is why I asked for feedback on my post. Having a community defined category is the only way to go as collecting every item isn't viable. I think that having a justified ruleset is the closest to 100% completion while still being entertaining. It would be focused around all unique items you can get within a single playthrough. Dan does list every secret on his website, you can go sector by sector and see if there are any other things that should be added onto the list.
A collectable is a unique item/unlockable that can only be obtained once per sector and doesn't require multiple playthroughs to collect/unlock. This doesn't mean that unlocking something by completing the game on a higher difficulty counts as a collectable since it isn't collected/unlocked within a sector.
Doing the run on any other difficulty than Normal would have much the same drawbacks as were discussed in my previous TAS discussions and I will not repeat myself here.
This would exclude ammo, health, and nano pickups but include all of the items I proposed in my longer post.
The only other thing you can get in a single playthrough is the massacre (which you get for being a pacifist) but seeing as you cannot colect some posters or get the scrambler while being a pacifist it cannot be collected. I favour having more items collected over getting the massacre.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Thanks for your patience and dedication! We don't often have to invent a brand new full completion definition, and our requirements are quite tight, so when there are people that have the energy to go all the way with us, it's very rewarding. Because then this definition can be reused by other communities and individuals due to its qualities we all participate in crystallizing.
So how many weapons will be collectable this way?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Thanks for your patience and dedication! We don't often have to invent a brand new full completion definition, and our requirements are quite tight, so when there are people that have the energy to go all the way with us, it's very rewarding. Because then this definition can be reused by other communities and individuals due to its qualities we all participate in crystallizing.
So how many weapons will be collectable this way?
I get all of the basic nanoweapons in sector 9, the banana gun is the only secret weapon obtainable. Look at my long post for more info on weapons.
P.S. I have edited my previous post slightly.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
It only says that probably all nanoweapons should be collected, but how does this cover this page http://www.remar.se/daniel/ijiguide_weapons.php
I've been told you can only have something like 17 of those. And even then, cracked weapons aren't present as collectable items.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Weapons can't be a part of it since you can't collect them all in one playthrough.
Well you probably could collect all weapons in one playthrough, but this would require "new game+" savefile that has Inner Prey unlocked.
My earlier post mistakenly said the massacre is mutually-exclusive with the banana gun, but it's actually mutually-exclusive with the scrambler (which is not a weapon). So with Inner Prey unlocked you could warp to Sector Z to get the Null Driver, find all base weapons in the regular levels, get your stats to Tasen 10 / Komato 10 / Crack 10 to hack seven compound weapons (the eighth can be hacked but is also on the ground in Sector X), enter the secret area with the Banana Gun, get the Massacre at the final boss, and proceed to get the secret Sector Y ending.
And, well, Sector Z at least makes a very different viewer experience. I'm not saying that's how the branch needs to be, but it at least strikes me as possible.
This run would be incompatible with all ribbons / posters, since Inner Prey requires you to already have those. It would still be compatible with all supercharges, since supercharges aren't recorded anywhere.
It only says that probably all nanoweapons should be collected, but how does this cover this page http://www.remar.se/daniel/ijiguide_weapons.php
I've been told you can only have something like 17 of those. And even then, cracked weapons aren't present as collectable items.
The first 8 weapons are regular weapons that you need to pick up. They have varying komato/tasen requirements. The next 8 nanoweapons are made with a combination of these at a cracking station with varying crack requirements. You can have all of these at the same time without much trouble. The next 3 weapons are secret weapons. The null driver requires what would be basically a true 100%.
You could collect massacre and banana gun in one run but then you couldn't collect all posters and supercharges. I don't think that's a good tradeoff.
Even though you can't collect all weapons, I still think that you should collect the ones that you can (meaning that banana gun would have to be collected). Again, this category is all the collectables you can get within a single run.
Weapons can't be a part of it since you can't collect them all in one playthrough.
Well you probably could collect all weapons in one playthrough, but this would require "new game+" savefile that has Inner Prey unlocked.
My earlier post mistakenly said the massacre is mutually-exclusive with the banana gun, but it's actually mutually-exclusive with the scrambler (which is not a weapon). So with Inner Prey unlocked you could warp to Sector Z to get the Null Driver, find all base weapons in the regular levels, get your stats to Tasen 10 / Komato 10 / Crack 10 to hack seven compound weapons (the eighth can be hacked but is also on the ground in Sector X), enter the secret area with the Banana Gun, get the Massacre at the final boss, and proceed to get the secret Sector Y ending.
And, well, Sector Z at least makes a very different viewer experience. I'm not saying that's how the branch needs to be, but it at least strikes me as possible.
This run would be incompatible with all ribbons / posters, since Inner Prey requires you to already have those. It would still be compatible with all supercharges, since supercharges aren't recorded anywhere.
Getting the banana gun and massacre would be identical to the pacifist run I did exept the MPFB boosts in sector 9. This doesn't strike me as a better watch than my proposed all collectables run. Not to mention that the varification TAS would be 3+ hours long and repetetive in order to be able to get to sector Z in the first place.
That being said I might do a TAS of only sector Z but not post it here, just on my youtube channel as it woldn't really fit here.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Matslo123 wrote:
Even though you can't collect all weapons, I still think that you should collect the ones that you can (meaning that banana gun would have to be collected). Again, this category is all the collectables you can get within a single run.
Yeah I agree now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
That's what I meant. Just let's recap and have an actual list we all could agree on.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The rules for an all collectables run:
A collectable is a unique item/unlockable that can only be obtained once per sector and doesn't require multiple playthroughs to collect/unlock. This doesn't mean that unlocking something by completing the game on a higher difficulty counts as a collectable since it isn't collected/unlocked within a sector.
Doing the run on any other difficulty than Normal would have much the same drawbacks as were discussed in my previous TAS discussions and I will not repeat myself here.
This would exclude ammo, health, and nano pickups but include:
• All posters, ribbons and supercharges
• Yukabacera's scrambler
• Trapmine
• Banana gun
• All armor and jump upgrades
All jump upgrades are required to beat the game anyway but they fit in the category of collectables. When I say all armor upgrades I mean maxing out armor (because they spawn in multiple locations if you have not collected them all).
The only other item you can get in a single playthrough is the massacre (which you get for being a pacifist) but seeing as you cannot colect some posters or get the scrambler while being a pacifist it cannot be collected. I favour having more items collected over getting the massacre.
Perhaps nano overloads should also be included as there is one in every sector except for sector 1. They wouldn't add on much time, some are completely on the way. You could argue that they are similar to supercharges except that they don't really do anything useful.
Should probably add a note that "all" armor upgrades means maxing out the armor stat since there's five pickups but once you have gotten two the rest disappear.
Det man inte har i begåvning får man ta ut i energi.
"I think I need to get to Snoop Dogg's level of high to be able to research this post." -Samsara
Read my fanfic, One Piece: Pure Corruption
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
All armor upgrades means all that are there. BTW this seems to mean you must grab the first ones that are present and despawn the rest, rather than look for the 2 that are the most optimal to grab, maybe in later levels. Outright skipping the less optimal ones would mean they aren't all collected. It's a weird scenario either way. Thoughts?
Otherwise I like the definition.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
• All posters, ribbons and supercharges
• Yukabacera's scrambler
• Trapmine
• Banana gun
• All armor and jump upgrades
FWIW I like this part.
Doing the run on any other difficulty than Normal would have much the same drawbacks as were discussed in my previous TAS discussions and I will not repeat myself here.
It's worth considering that you appear to use easy mode because that's what Speedrun.com does. You claim that people would find higher difficulty modes "far less entertaining", but several posters (including Patashu, Necroyeur, ais523, ThunderAxe, and myself) have suggested they actually prefer higher difficulties. Maybe you could ask posters what they find entertaining instead of assuming.
All armor upgrades means all that are there. BTW this seems to mean you must grab the first ones that are present and despawn the rest, rather than look for the 2 that are the most optimal to grab, maybe in later levels. Outright skipping the less optimal ones would mean they aren't all collected. It's a weird scenario either way. Thoughts?
I'd disagree with this part, and say that since you can't collect all of the pickups, only two out of five, then collecting any two should fulfill the completionist goal. That's why I think it should be phrased more in the lines of "max out armour level" instead of "collect all armour pickups", since the latter is... well... impossible. Passing by an armour upgrade and grabbing one in a later level should technically not be considered any different from picking one up earlier and passing by the place where one would have been if you didn't already have it maxed out in a later level. It just seems weird to force the route to be picking up the ones in sector 3 and 7, instead of figuring out which are the most optimal ones to grab.
Det man inte har i begåvning får man ta ut i energi.
"I think I need to get to Snoop Dogg's level of high to be able to research this post." -Samsara
Read my fanfic, One Piece: Pure Corruption
It's worth considering that you appear to use easy mode because that's what Speedrun.com does. You claim that people would find higher difficulty modes "far less entertaining", but several posters (including Patashu, Necroyeur, ais523, ThunderAxe, and myself) have suggested they actually prefer higher difficulties. Maybe you could ask posters what they find entertaining instead of assuming.
Could you provide your reasons for why you would find it more entertaining on a higher difficulty (I assume you mean extreme)? This is not only targeted towords Radiant, any feedback is appreciated but please make your reasons justified.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
So this movie is going to be canceled I guess, until a full run is made?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
