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DrD2k9 wrote:
Even if it is a breaking the 4th wall gimmick, it's way the game is intended to be played. Specifically for MGS, the Psychomantis fight CAN be beaten without doing this swap (which means it's not necessary for a TAS). But to me, the fact that it is the intended way of playing means it should be acceptable.
Then allow it for that particular game. Simple.
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Recently a TAS of Kirby's Avalanche was submitted that's like one frame long, and does nothing more than jump directly to the end credits. It was rejected for being too trivial and showing zero gameplay, even though it's technically speaking a valid "completion" of the game. That got me thinking: Exactly how much of the game has to be shown for it to not be rejected, and why? If the run (assuming it would be possible) showed like a half second of the first level, but with no gameplay of any kind, and then jumped straight to the end, would it be acceptable? The main menu was probably shown, and the start of the first level flashed on the screen for like a half a second, and then we get the end credits, but no actual gameplay was shown. Would it be accepted or rejected? Where exactly do you put the threshold for acceptability, and why? I think this goes once again to the question of what constitutes "completing" the game. Clearly simply showing the end credits is not enough. Something else needs to be done in addition to that. But what, exactly? With many games long gone are the days when a speedrun would have to actually play it through, from beginning to end (with, at the very most, some very minor route skips within individual levels). Nowadays it isn't even clear how much of the game needs to be shown in order for it to be considered a legit "completion".
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^ This is more of a movie rules / judging issue (eg off topic). I don't remember this submission but usually the judgement for these were "Too trivial to standout from a non-assisted run", that is the "TAS can be easily replicated without tool assistance". These TASes (those which really reached the ending and submitted to TASVideos) does completes the games. edit:
I think this goes once again to the question of what constitutes "completing" the game. Clearly simply showing the end credits is not enough. Something else needs to be done in addition to that. But what, exactly?
From Wiki: MovieRules.html#MovieMustBeComplete Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion. Also note that this rule isn't complete. For example one of the pokémon TAS got cancelled/rejected/delayed which only jumped to the "THE END" graphic. More information about game ending and that example: How to define a game's ending? Thread #10470: How to define a game's ending?
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
^ This is more of a movie rules / judging issue (eg off topic). I don't remember this submission but usually the judgement for these were "Too trivial to standout from a non-assisted run", that is the "TAS can be easily replicated without tool assistance".
Thread #18367: #5218: FatRatKnight's NES Overlord in 03:57.34 (#5218: FatRatKnight's NES Overlord in 03:57.34) is a good example of just such a judgement.
Also note that this rule isn't complete. For example one of the pokémon TAS got cancelled/rejected/delayed which only jumped to the "THE END" graphic.
Thread #13927: #3903: Masterjun & FractalFusion's GBC Pokémon: Red/Green/Blue/Yellow Version "glitched" in 01:10.47 (#3903: Masterjun & FractalFusion's GBC Pokémon Yellow "glitched" in 01:10.47). It was rejected because the game was not considered to be a post-completion state (it didn't let you press B to return to the title screen, and it hadn't written completion information to the save file). In the case of Kirby's Avalanche, I think the fact that you can view the credits regardless of how much of the game you beat is enough to disqualify that kind of TAS. (There are lots of other games that let you watch the credits without having beaten the game). If the credits don't signify beating the game, then you have to demonstrate the game is beaten in some other way (usually this involves beating the final boss).
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Thanks Patashu, yes, I've thought about Overlord specifically, for pokémon I've thinking about another one but this is also excellent examples.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
From Wiki: MovieRules.html#MovieMustBeComplete Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion. Also note that this rule isn't complete.
The rule is complete. Here's just a note in Judge Guidelines:
Runs that incorporate "game end glitch" techniques need certain verification on whether the ending really occurs. It can be done by comparing how the game acts after it ended normally, with how it acts after it was glitch-ended. Missing some critical ending routines would mean it was not really completed.
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Yes, that's where it's incomplete. What does critical ending routines consists of? Just compare the two judgement note about what is required for game completion and what happens in the TASes. #4308: pirohiko & finalfighter's NES Mega Man in 00:32.11 <-- accepted TAS #3903: Masterjun & FractalFusion's GBC Pokémon: Red/Green/Blue/Yellow Version "glitched" in 01:10.47 <-- rejected TAS
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I've been a part of both of these talks, and the point is that it's sometimes impossible to perfectly match full game end state. Also it's impossible to explain every aspect of every rule in MovieRules, because the page would be endless (it already is insanely huge). For all rule clarifications that users may need we have Ask a judge thread. For clarifications for judges we have Judge Guidelines. If you're unsure about some definition that is there in MovieRules, you can always ask, and we will always elaborate. There's nothing beyond those 2 pages that we account for when judging glitched endings. Critical ending routines can be absolutely anything, the point is game behavior after it's been allegedly glitch-completed.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
I don't remember this submission but usually the judgement for these were "Too trivial to standout from a non-assisted run", that is the "TAS can be easily replicated without tool assistance".
This makes no sense to me. I have never seen (although I may well have missed it) a rule that states that a TAS needs to be somehow "better" than the unassisted equivalent. (The only rule I remember is that the TAS needs to beat existing records, meaning that if the TAS is slower than the unassisted run, it will be rejected for being suboptimal.) I thought that the principle has been in place for years that every officially published game (with the exception of games of certain genres, like certain types of educational games) for the currently supported consoles, can have an any% TAS published in Vault, with pretty much no requirements (other than it being as optimal as possible). I have never heard of a Vault rule that the TAS must not be replicable in real-time.
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Warp wrote:
This makes no sense to me. I have never seen (although I may well have missed it) a rule that states that a TAS needs to be somehow "better" than the unassisted equivalent. (The only rule I remember is that the TAS needs to beat existing records, meaning that if the TAS is slower than the unassisted run, it will be rejected for being suboptimal.) I thought that the principle has been in place for years that every officially published game (with the exception of games of certain genres, like certain types of educational games) for the currently supported consoles, can have an any% TAS published in Vault, with pretty much no requirements (other than it being as optimal as possible). I have never heard of a Vault rule that the TAS must not be replicable in real-time.
http://tasvideos.org/diff.exe?page=Vault&rev=11&prev=10
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feos wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/diff.exe?page=Vault&rev=11&prev=10
Makes no sense to me. Why should we care if it's replicable in real-time or not? Vault is not about entertainment or notability.
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Tools that assist making movies should be justified. The resulting work should be superhuman. If it's perfectly humanly possible, there's no value in tools used to do exactly the same.
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feos wrote:
Tools that assist making movies should be justified. The resulting work should be superhuman. If it's perfectly humanly possible, there's no value in tools used to do exactly the same.
I have to disagree with that. It's always interesting to know how close humans can get to perfection. Look at Super Mario Bros, for example. Compare how incredibly close human players can get to the perfect run. It's amazing to follow the advances in human play, and see how close it gets to the tool-assisted version. Who on earth would think "the TAS is too close to the real-time speedrun. Let's reject it and not publish it." Even if human players were able to exactly replicate the TAS, it would still be extremely interesting and have a great deal of value. It gives a point of comparison. So yeah, I strongly disagree with that sentiment.
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Who on earth would think "the TAS is too close to the real-time speedrun. Let's reject it and not publish it."
I also opposed against these "Too close to RTA", "no superhuman involved", "trivial, educational" etc stuffs. Some submissions that got rejected because of these reasons #5799: Flip & ajfirecracker's Genesis Aladdin, Disney's "game end glitch" in 00:02.64 #5332: Ready Steady Yeti's DS Victorious: Taking the Lead "100%" in 44:29.04 #5104: PikachuMan's NES Palamedes "Tournament" in 06:26.56
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Who on earth would think "the TAS is too close to the real-time speedrun. Let's reject it and not publish it."
I also opposed against these "Too close to RTA", "no superhuman involved", "trivial, educational" etc stuffs. Some submissions that got rejected because of these reasons #5799: Flip & ajfirecracker's Genesis Aladdin, Disney's "game end glitch" in 00:02.64 #5332: Ready Steady Yeti's DS Victorious: Taking the Lead "100%" in 44:29.04 #5104: PikachuMan's NES Palamedes "Tournament" in 06:26.56
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the Kirby Avalance TAS should be accepted either. It's just that the reason is different from the stated one (ie. "it's replicable via unassisted play"), which I think is a bit silly. Of course my reasoning is much more contentious and ambiguous (ie. "it doesn't actually play/complete the game"). I suppose that if my reasoning were to be applied, it would have to be left to the somewhat subjective decision of a judge and the community whether the TAS showcases enough gameplay to constitute a legit "completion" of the game or not.
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> The SNES's controller ports can read 16 bytes of data at once, but the controllers themselves only transmit 12 bytes (4 face buttons, Start and Select, L and R, 4 directions, each taking 1 byte.) Since the controller ports can read more than the controllers can transmit, that means the 4 "blank" bytes can be used for other purposes; in the case of the recent glitched SMW submission, in combination with memory corruption, they help brute-force the game into running the ending sequence. I think this is a really interesting example of splitting an issue. In classical logic, there are: a) the principle of bivalence, and b) the law of the excluded middle. We often think in binaries. Here is my abstracted interpretation of this Mario issue, possibly modified to fit my philosophical needs: The TAS community has to vote on a Proposition S: Should TASes be able to press the Secret Button which automatically causes a game's end sequence or <goal>? Without knowing the meaning of S, some natural approaches to it are: Yes, No, Maybe, I Don't Know. "Yes and No". Someone might think you can only be For or Against S. The community decides it is against the spirit of how the game was to be played with all mass produced or commonly used or marketed official or 3rd party controllers. The community decides that such a Secret button is not academically interesting. So the held truth of the world is that ~S is the case. Then one day someone discovers that there is E: Extra RAM (or whatever) that allows some Exploit to trigger the end sequence or <goal> which can be programmed in with only "natural" or "naturally intended" input. This Extra RAM "belongs to" or is designated for the prohibited button. (Prohibited according to community-decided ~S.) However, E is technically different than S. And E can be exploited without making S the case, (aka violating the ~S prohibition.) It's important to note that at the time of the community deciding ~S, (or any conclusion on any topic), it had never crossed their mind of the difficult-to-conceive-of or not-readily-obvious "splitting-case" of E. Discussion of E may sway votes on the S issue. But at the time of the vote, say, the E issue had never crossed anyone's minds. The answer to "Shall all or any of our TASes merely press the Secret button?" had previously had a definite "No" answer. But now, upon discovery of the thought E, it gets weaked to a "Yes and No" or a "Maybe". There are some, call them Conservatives, who think that in the Spirit of the established ~S, the Extra RAM (or whatever) ought be prohibited, as it is just not in the Spirit of the intended game. Or that that RAM being there is a necessary but unwanted consequence of there being the Secret button, and part of our prohibition on the Secret button should be the prohibition of that Extra RAM (or whatever). Then there are some, call them Liberals, who think that the Spirit of ~S is regarding "commonly used or marketed controllers" as opposed to "naturally inputted glitches exploiting the Extra RAM (or whatever)". For the Liberals, the Spirit of ~S is regarding what is or is not "natural input". For the Conservatives, the spirit of ~S is or is not "what is intended as the game." This difference in values might not have even been known, noted, or discovered, at the time of the vote for ~S. It's only at the discovery of new thought E that a civil war can start in a community, where everyone had thought that they had shared value on ~S, but it turns out the community was split on underlying principle (which had caused the consensus on ~S). People who flip from ~S to S on account of E are called unprincipled liberals with loose morals by Conservatives. People who stay true to ~S regardless of E are called old-fashioned [conservatives], stuck in their ways, anti-progress, on the wrong side of history, by Liberals. > Some people think TASing isn't playing the game fairly too. I think here is a clear example of a "linguistic dispute". There are Person A and Person B. They are asked some ambiguous question, or some question currently thought to be unambiguous. This question is like, "Q: What do you think of TASes?" A answers, "They're cheating" and B answers, "They're clever." If they were to vote For or Against "T: TASes", some hold to T and others ~T. Apparently. There might actually be anger or hostility between the groups, as there actually was when TASes were first being invented, with speedrunning groups like SDA or TG. It's only because there is the hidden Condition of "C: Trying to pass it off as a human play" which A thinks is the case or entailed by Q, whereas B obviously agrees with A given C but entirely disagrees that C is at all entailed by Q. Q becomes deconstructed into something subtler, like, "Is a TAS cheating even if it is clearly marked as a non-human TAS?" And then general consensus is reached between the at-once-warring groups. I think the case of whether to be Conservative or Liberal on ~S given E is exactly analogous to whether the speedrunner is to initially hold to ~T, (or to even hold to ~T after consideration of the condition of ~C). I think the resolution is simple. There are just different classes or categories of TASes or <thing>. In the chronologically prior dispute, the <thing> was taken to be something like "fast runs" where there was disagreement about the moral value of T because of the unarticulated C. In the newly-conceived-of dispute regarding ~S and E, the moral value of exploiting E is what is in dispute. I don't see why <thing>, (in this case "TASes" and in the chronologically-prior case might have been something like "fast runs"), has to remain a monolithic concept. We can split <thing> into facetA and facetB. Where things with or of type facetA exploit E where as things of type or with facetB do not Exploit E. As this is clearly marked, like the condition ~C, the controversy is resolved and general consensus is quickly reached in the community. In both cases, the guiding principle or the antidote to the controversy is transparency and honesty and clearly marking and categorizing what is and is not a <thing> as relevant facets or conditions of <thing> come into public consideration. Personally, I am turned off by frame-perfect end-sequence-triggering programming-exploit TASes. As if I want a TAS to reveal something secret or superhuman about a game, or the "intended" "spirit" of the game that is "naturally seen" or the "natural physics" of the game as "seen" by humans. For example, I can "see" that these Mario-through-walls (Mario 1) or high velocity Parallel Universe Marios (Mario 64) are not intended. Whereas, there is controversy or ambiguity regarding whether the final-level Mario 3 "through-wall" glitch was intended. Similarly, the Zelda 1 disappearing door... Even if it was born a glitch, once Nintendo issued some press release about how it's a feature, there is now controversy about whether or not it should be in the "spirit" of the intended game, or if it could be "seen" that such glitches are against the spirit of the game. Like, really, why do I want to watch a 4 minute screen warping glitchfest of every Zelda that looks the same and I have no idea how it works or what's going on. If you get off on that and Crooked Cartridges and shit, fine, that's your fetish, not mine. But categorize everything clearly and I have no problem with you jerking off to Crooked Cartridge. One concern is, though, that community resources will get split, or worse split in favor of the glitchfest art rather than the "natural intended spirit" art, of the kind of TASes I prefer. The Smash Bros community modded Smash Bros to add or change or fix things, because they knew what was best for the game. Were some Mario or Zelda source code open source, and it was "obvious" that there was a glitch or that something was "intended", why should the TAS community continue to TAS Mario 1 against the original source code rather than the community-approved of Mario 1 improvement source? People who prefer the glitchfest original source would be like historical reenactors. With an originalist interpretation of the Constitution (Mario 1), they think the newfangled source is heresy that has lost its way and is inauthentic. Whereas the progress community feels like whatever Mario 1 or whatever was intended with whatever virtue like "justice" or "freedom" or "love of Mario" such that today we may have a different style of interpretation than what was available to the originalists, and that this new style is superior. I didn't read the previous 9 pages before posting, so sorry for how much has been covered already. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's say, to emulate Crooked Cartridge (CC), a physics simulator is created. This is a quantum physics simulator. The entire N64 and Zelda cartridge system is recreated, and we have the computational resources to emulate CC. Eventually it is discovered that some CC glitches are mutually exclusive when using a Newtonian simulator over the quantum simulator. Newtonianists value creating TASes which are Newtonian, for whatever reasons or merits that goes along with Newtonianism. The quantum simulationists, or originalists or realists or purists or Puritans or whatever, would say only the quantum simulation is "the real thing". Whereas the speedrunners will maintain that only a human with an original console is "the real thing." Until further and further and further "splitting controversies" occur, as more unconceived thoughts become conceived and brought to the public's attention, such as what is or is not a human, or what is or is not an original console, as those things which were once thought to be clear, monolithic concepts, become clarified with splitting details, which divide communities by moral or taste.
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If the Hero of Hyrule does not have material access to a stronger sword, because it actually does not exist, why should he be prohibited from saving the princess? Likewise, if the Hero of Hyrule doesn't have material access to ANY sword, why should that prohibit him from saving the princess? Because if Link reaches Ganon and bombs and fires and arrows the hell out of him, you'd think fairly that's enough to kill him. Such that it can be honestly or honestly-enough said that, sure, why not, the Hero of Hyrule can be said to be potentially capable of saving the princess without a sword. So then, what does it mean, for a kid, for you as a kid, to have played or beaten a video game like Zelda? Is it POSSIBLE that you owned only one controller, making the Up+A save/warp impossible? Or are we disallowing quantum randomness to Up+A save/warp, or an as-of-yet undiscovered arbitrary code execution exploit to trigger the Up+A save/warp screen without a second controller? My point is, clearly, honestly, charitably, we think that a kid with only one control, which is "normal", as opposed to some exotic advanced super controller capable of magic and voodoo that only one copy of was ever made... can be said to have genuinely PLAYED the game... Then a category of TAS, in the spirit of choosing the hardest path with the unluckiest luck... We should say, that since the minimal conditions for playing Zelda 1 are one controller... as opposed to two controller, or playing with paperclips and magic and quantum weirdness... Then, in the spirit of playing the hardest path in the hardest way, which is still somehow not stupid or arbitrary... or against the "nature" or "spirit" of the game, at least as narrowly defined as the goal of that specific TAS by the author or authors... Then we should disallow the use of Up+A in Zelda 1, as it is not a natural feature of the game that can be fairly used by a kid who only has one controller, which is the minimum condition for playing (and beating?) the game. Beating, if it wasn't ridiculous that Ganon required a sword to die. Or, less violently, that we don't need a sword to win. Can't Link rationally talk Ganon into giving up the princess? Or, can't the princess do this herself? And how about royalty ruling Hyrule? Isn't that a little antiquated? And then, for any selected Axioms we want to apply to the run... Like, no Up+A, no screen warping, no deaths, 100% heart pickups, at least 85% door repairs hit, gets to Ganon / dies at Ganon, somehow triggers end sequence / will be said to have completed "real" goal of TAS... That this TAS should be automatically generated by a program that promises to TAS that game. When one human out does the TAS of the previous human, what algorithm is followed, most stupidly? I don't mean the most novel and genius innovations in a TAS record break. I mean the type of TAS record break where only few frames are saved somehow on a few screens, where no goals or subgoals are meaningfully altered or achieved, and which change is rather unnoticeable to humans. THAT type of tightening up, frames of subgoals, should be a standard feature of TAS Emulators, as opposed to "natural" emulators, where it is oddly presumed that natural emulation of consoles proves to be insufficient for what the TAS community truly desires a console/game hardware/software pair to be or to have been. Even for non-programmers. So this tedious process of frame precision, with guess work, which is repetitive... Should become easier for non-programmers... By being able to in natural-enough language specify goals or conditions for the next immediate subgoal, that the TAS emulator itself will do that tightening up work by itself, while the TAS creator goes on to the next subgoal to intelligently consider. But, for the TAS movie watcher, given his arbitrary selection of axioms, for which whichever permutation selection has never in the history of the universe been aimed for, on-the-fly a TAS should be producible by his TAS emulator, with the help of his Java program, (in conjunction with the ROM, of course... or, some more ideal ROM as chosen by the community for whatever reasons). Then, playing code golf, or aiming for fastest execution time, or some tradeoff of these for elegance, is the "true" TAS, as it can be said to be the most intelligent and most difficult and the most sincere production of an expert video game player, even under novel conditions. I don't mean to produce the best Zelda player which somehow automatically knows how to respond to some new character class never-before-seen in the game, as novel. I mean, rooms or game remakes where configurations of naturally occurring items and enemies, which are impossible or never before seen for whatever reasons in the original ROM, would be known how to be responded to intelligently by the artificial expert system. When someone thinks of a new goal set which would be intellectually interesting for viewers to watch, they can specify this goal set and have it get issued to a cloud computing network of dedicated TASers and their paid for resources... To donate some portion of that computational effort to solving the problem as defined and requested by the "game goal set" originator/innovator. Then, rather than attributing the produced TAS to human author or authors, the produced TAS would be attributed to the originators/innovators of the GAME GOAL SET and the ALGORITHM, (run with a specified emulator and ROM or as defined from a specified memory state), which (ultimately) produced it. In a shorter sentence: The "true" author of the TAS would be the pair, the human(s) who came up with the goal set ideas, and the algorithm (with associated meta details) that produced it.
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Ramzi: - All the posts from the previous pages you skipped, in one place: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kEjJk6uFgubSlqcFp2IntZvbrW7VsjI6KKuWiRfPMRI/edit#gid=0 - The techniques that doesn't allowed at the moment (note: movie publishing related problems are not included): Wiki: MESHUGGAH/ForbiddenTechniques Added some examples to your hypothesises or what. For the Liberals, the Spirit of ~S is regarding what is or is not "natural input". For the Conservatives, the spirit of ~S is or is not "what is intended as the game." --> Doom TASes using logitech racing wheel (not listed, because in this case, this is about a "third party controller having a first party support", albeit you still need to get that third party controller, and it's still a racing wheel...; Debug and cheat codes; I think the resolution is simple. There are just different classes or categories of TASes or <thing>. [...] As this is clearly marked, like the condition ~C, the controversy is resolved and general consensus is quickly reached in the community. In both cases, the guiding principle or the antidote to the controversy is transparency and honesty and clearly marking and categorizing what is and is not a <thing> as relevant facets or conditions of <thing> come into public consideration. --> "Trivial and non superhuman" TASes (many examples a few posts above and previous page); Anything that is not allowed at the moment; Eventually it is discovered that some CC glitches are mutually exclusive when using a Newtonian simulator over the quantum simulator. --> this hits too close to home. Any TASes relying on specific starting RAM values; Game versions (multicart); and in generally, any glitch that is mutually exclusive to a technique. Some glitches are allowed to be used if you are not using it directly (debug and even cheat codes in some cases). edit 1+2: In the case of Zelda, you can just unplug your controller and plug it in the 2nd port. This would also apply to Famicom TASes, where the 2nd controller is missing the Select and Start buttons, you could theoritically swap the controller from port to port, if we exclude "Select and Start buttons on same both controller at the same time".
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Warp wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the Kirby Avalance TAS should be accepted either. It's just that the reason is different from the stated one (ie. "it's replicable via unassisted play"), which I think is a bit silly.
I must admit that I'm enjoying, perhaps in a bit cynical way, the discussion that the new SMB3 submission is generating. I have been asking for years (although can't be bothered to find my own posts about the subject) what happens if a TAS does nothing more than to jump directly from the startup to the ending screen. I even once asked if in the future the site would start consisting on nothing more than 1-second long runs that do nothing more than show the ending screen of the game. Since not many such TASes have existed, it has been a mostly hypothetical question, but it has always loomed in the near future. We are slowly but surely starting to see it happening. The Kirby Avalanche TAS was rejected because, and I'm going to be very blunt and direct here, of what I consider to be more an excuse than anything else. "Replicable via unassisted play". I don't think that excuse is going to fly with this SMB3 submission. (As already said earlier, I agree with it not replacing the any% run, but for a rather different reason.) But this is good. It's generating the proper discussion of what exactly counts as "completing the game". Maybe it will lead to more precise definitions and rules. I'd hate for the current any% run to be thrown in the trashbin and replaced with a "run" that does nothing more than show the end screen. However, to justify rejecting this I think some more specific rules need to be crafted.
Alyosha
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Warp wrote:
Warp wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the Kirby Avalance TAS should be accepted either. It's just that the reason is different from the stated one (ie. "it's replicable via unassisted play"), which I think is a bit silly.
I must admit that I'm enjoying, perhaps in a bit cynical way, the discussion that the new SMB3 submission is generating. I have been asking for years (although can't be bothered to find my own posts about the subject) what happens if a TAS does nothing more than to jump directly from the startup to the ending screen. I even once asked if in the future the site would start consisting on nothing more than 1-second long runs that do nothing more than show the ending screen of the game. Since not many such TASes have existed, it has been a mostly hypothetical question, but it has always loomed in the near future. We are slowly but surely starting to see it happening.
I don’t think it’s a negative. This is just the natural end point in a long stream of developments on nes. The reason it got this far I would say is mainly because this is the reasonable intersection between complexity of the task and desire to exert the effort to accomplish it. Even technically very complicated NES runs are by far simpler then say a moderately lengthy 3D N64 run. Who would even dare to try to make a Jet Force Gemini TAS for example? That’s like a dedicated year of effort at least, with new discoveries likely to invalidate your work in the mean time. So instead people just hammer away at NES/ SNES and similar games. I know that’s what I did anyway.
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