Player (42)
Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany
Ah, the color of the oceans question. That's confusing, yes. Not many places give the correct explanation. There are many factors involved. The color of a body of water depends a lot on what is dissolved in it. Nevertheless, there are some general phenomena. The first one is reflection. Since water is a reflective surface, part of the light you see comes from what's reflected in the atmosphere. The second one is absorption. This one is a bit complicated to explain because it involves quantum mechanics. Water molecules can rotate or vibrate in a large number of ways, and using quantum mechanical considerations you expect some light frequencies enter in resonance with these modes, and that light gets absorbed. If you measure the things, you'll find that water absorbs frequencies towards the red more than ten times more than ones towards the blue. The third phenomenon is Rayleigh scattering. Basically, when water goes through a fluid, different wavelengths get scattered differently. The smaller the wavelength, the stronger the scattering. The blue color of the oceans comes mostly from the reflection from the atmosphere and from the scattered light rays that entered it and then left. These rays are mostly blue because it's the color that gets less absorbed, and also the one most likely to scatter. Now, why are the oceans (or the sky) not violet? That has to do with the composition of sunlight. Sunlight has a lot more blue than violet, and our eyes cannot see violet very well, so even when violet light is there, we cannot see it very well.
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
When explaining just how weird quantum physics can be, the usual go-to example is the variation of the double slit experiment, where passing electrons through the slits produces an interference pattern as though they were waves. But the example goes on to talk about how, if you put a camera or some other sensor on your setup to try and monitor where each electron goes, suddenly your electrons behave like particles and you have no interference pattern. I admit to knowing next to nothing about the field, but this explanation feels... off. At best, it feels like an oversimplification so extreme that it ends up being nonsense. Can someone please explain, preferably not to technically, what this is all about?
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Ferret Warlord wrote:
I admit to knowing next to nothing about the field, but this explanation feels... off. At best, it feels like an oversimplification so extreme that it ends up being nonsense. Can someone please explain, preferably not to technically, what this is all about?
I think the delayed quantum eraser version of the experiment is, unlike what it might sound at first (after all, it has such a fancy-sounding complicated name), a better and easier way of understanding the seeming paradox that's happening. (Note that this is most probably an over-simplification and may be slightly erroneous in details, but should be mostly in the ballpark.) In the double-slit experiment it's possible to put two crystals into the slits that split the incoming photons into two, going into two distinct directions. In other words, you can have a photon that passed through one of the slits split into two photons, one going towards a detector or film, and the other going towards another measurement device. This allows knowing which slit the original photon went through: As it has been split into two photons before one of them hits the film, the other can be measured to see which slit it came from. When this is done, no interference pattern happens. Ok, one might thing that the splitting crystals at the slits are somehow interfering with this whole system and destroying the interference pattern. However, here's where a very curious and strange thing happens: If the two possible paths that the photons take towards the measurement device are exactly joined so that it's now impossible to tell which slit the original photon went through, the interference pattern in the film appears once again! Not only that, but this joining of the two paths can be done at a much farther distance than the distance between the slits and the film. Suppose that the distance between the slits and the film is like 20 cm, and in the other direction where the split photons go through the two paths are joined like 10 meters away, the interference pattern still appears, even though (at least apparently) the decision to join the two photon paths is done much later than the other photons hit the film. Also, this whole thing doesn't even require several photons to pass through the slits at the same time. The emission of photons from the photon source can be made so dim that only one photon is emitted at a time, which goes alone through one of the slits. When this is done again and again with enough photons, the interference pattern will start slowly appearing (demonstrating that the single photons actually interfere with themselves when they go through the slits). Or if the measurement paths are not joined, only two spots appear on the film (rather than an interference pattern). Even more curiously, this device can be built so that you can decide whether the join the two paths or not at any moment. And this decision can be done (at least apparently) after the original photon has hit the film. And still, whether an interference pattern appears or not depends on whether the two paths were joined or not, even if the decision is made with a delay, after the film has already been hit. I don't know why this happens so I can't explain it. (It might have something to do with photons taking all possible paths and essentially being everywhere at the same time, or something like that, but this becomes really esoteric-sounding.)
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Something that Bisqwit asked me made me think of something that I just can't figure out. If you are in a lift that's going up at a constant speed, you'll feel heavier (and it will be harder for you to eg. climb a ladder). If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll feel lighter. Or do you? How does this work? If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll never be in free fall (because that would require an accelerating speed), no matter how fast the lift is going... but you still feel lighter? I can't figure this out.
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2070)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US
Warp wrote:
Something that Bisqwit asked me made me think of something that I just can't figure out. If you are in a lift that's going up at a constant speed, you'll feel heavier (and it will be harder for you to eg. climb a ladder). If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll feel lighter. Or do you? How does this work? If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll never be in free fall (because that would require an accelerating speed), no matter how fast the lift is going... but you still feel lighter? I can't figure this out.
It's an inertia/center of mass issue. As you are inside the elevator, your mass (and that of the ladder) can be considered part of the mass of the elevator itself. When the elevator is rising, and you try to climb the ladder you are effectively shifting the center of mass of the entire elevator complex higher within the elevator at a more rapid pace than than constant speed the elevator is moving. Your action of accelerating this center of mass within the elevator complex require you to introduce the force necessary to move by using your body's muscles making you feel heavier as it requires greater exertion to introduce this force. Going down is not quite but almost the opposite. As you try to climb the ladder you are still effectively shifting the center of mass of the entire elevator complex higher within the elevator. This time however, your actions are counteracting the accelerating force of gravity by allowing the center of mass to 'fall' slower while your climbing the ladder. Because the total mass of the elevator system doesn't change due to your actions within, the overall system's speed is neither accelerated or decelerated in it's speed away from or toward the earth due to the change of forces applied within the interior of the elevator system. If you aren't trying to move within the elevator, the center of mass of the entire system never shifts and you feel 'normal' weight during the constant motion. When standing still in an elevator, you only feel heaver/lighter during acceleration/deceleration because of the inertia of your body's own center of mass in relation to the earth. It's all a balance of acceleration/deceleration. The moment you stop climbing the ladder (regardless of the direction the elevator is traveling) there's an opposite acceleration/deceleration of the systems center of mass to what you initiated a the bottom of the ladder. Here's a video using a slinky to demonstrate center of mass and relation to gravity. It's not exactly the same but it shows how center of mass is important to how an entire system is impacted by gravity. Link to video EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel. When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder. When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier. EDIT 2: This was a flawed thought process.
Amaraticando
It/Its
Editor, Player (158)
Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 673
Location: Brazil
If the elevator movement is "rigid" within the building, e.g. it doesn't slowdown/shake if you jump inside it, then you'll effectively be unable to tell if the elevator is still or moving in the first place. It's Einstein's equivalence principle!
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Amaraticando wrote:
If the elevator movement is "rigid" within the building, e.g. it doesn't slowdown/shake if you jump inside it, then you'll effectively be unable to tell if the elevator is still or moving in the first place. It's Einstein's equivalence principle!
If the elevator is going down at a great speed, even if it's at constant velocity, it will be much easier to jump, requiring significantly less effort. If the elevator is going up at a great speed, it will be harder to jump, requiring more effort. But what explains that? It's hard to wrap one's head around it. A related question: If you drop a ball inside the elevator, does it acceleration towards the floor depend on the vertical speed of the elevator? (If the answer is no, then it's even more puzzling.)
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2070)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US
Warp wrote:
If the elevator is going down at a great speed, even if it's at constant velocity, it will be much easier to jump, requiring significantly less effort. If the elevator is going up at a great speed, it will be harder to jump, requiring more effort. But what explains that? It's hard to wrap one's head around it.
Did you miss my response? Specifically this part:
EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel. When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder. When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier.
Let me add a couple words and it may clarify further. (added words bolded, important words underlined) Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel (and how much perceived effort it takes to change position of your body's center of mass in realtion to the earth's surface). When the elevator is moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder and move your own center of gravity further from the earth's surface. When moving downward in the elevator, you only have to match gravity's force to 'ascend' the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space at a given distance from the Earth's surface. Thus it feels easier. The effort required to exert a force greater than gravity is greater than the effort required to exert a force equal to gravity. For further clarification regarding this part of your initial question:
Warp wrote:
If you are in a lift that's going up at a constant speed, you'll feel heavier (and it will be harder for you to eg. climb a ladder). If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll feel lighter.
This actually isn't true. If you are standing stationary in the moving elevator (thus moving at the same vertical speed as the elevator) you'd feel your normal weight. It's only when you try to move within the elevator (thereby changing the position of your body's center of mass in relation to the earth) that you feel a different weight. The perceived weight change is only a perception based on the amount of effort required to move your center of mass in relation to the earth's surface. EDIT: This was a flawed thought process.
Warp wrote:
A related question: If you drop a ball inside the elevator, does it acceleration towards the floor depend on the vertical speed of the elevator? (If the answer is no, then it's even more puzzling.)
No, its acceleration is not affected by the speed of the elevator. It will accelerate toward the earth at the standard acceleration due to gravitational force. When it meets the floor of the elevator, it will stop/bounce due to the Normal force exerted by the elevator's floor. Further, the time it takes for the ball to reach the floor in the elevator moving at (any) constant velocity when dropped from 3 ft above the floor should be nearly equivalent to the time it takes the ball dropped from 3 ft above the floor to reach the floor in a stationary elevator. This is due to the ball's initial velocity matching the elevator's prior to being dropped. The ball's inertia wants to keep it moving in the same direction of the elevator, but gravity wants to accelerate the ball toward the floor. As gravity is constant (for a given distance), the acceleration toward the floor is equal regardless of what direction the elevator was traveling when the ball was dropped (or if the elevator wasn't moving to begin with). If the elevator was traveling rapidly enough to have major change in distance from the earth's surface within the time that it takes the ball to fall, there may be very slight variation in fall-time as the instantaneous force exerted by gravity would change throughout the fall as distance changes; but it would need to be a significantly rapid speed to have a time difference perceptible to the naked eye (without measurement tools). Just make sure you're not confusing an elevator moving downward at constant speed with the process of free-fall. Free-fall is an acceleration process, not constant velocity. Terminal Velocity is the limitation of free-fall due to force exerted by air resistance. Within the closed elevator there's no increased air resistance upon the ball simply because the elevator is moving. The way training for weightless environments is simulated in airplanes like the "Vomit Comet" is by the plane approximating the acceleration due to the force of gravity (or free-fall). If the planes were flying at constant speed (even perfectly vertical), there'd be no perceived weightlessness.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
DrD2k9 wrote:
If you are standing stationary in the moving elevator (thus moving at the same vertical speed as the elevator) you'd feel your normal weight. It's only when you try to move within the elevator (thereby changing the position of your body's center of mass in relation to the earth) that you feel a different weight. The perceived weight change is only a perception based on the amount of effort required to move your center of mass in relation to the earth's surface.
I asked this same question at physicsforums.com, and so far from the 6 people who have answered, not a single one of them believes that there's a difference felt inside the elevator regardless of whether it's moving or not, when climbing a ladder (or standing up from a seated position). My question is about understanding the mechanics behind it, but I cannot even demonstrate that the phenomenon happens in the first place... When I posted the question, I marked it as a "basic" question. Apparently it isn't as "basic" as I thought it would be. Nor am I apparently the only one who is confused about this.
Active player (497)
Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 128
DrD2k9 wrote:
EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel. When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder. When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier.
Why? Suppose I am standing in the elevator. Even if the elevator is moving down (relative to the surface of the Earth) at a constant speed, I will have a weight, mg, which, when standing, is balanced by the reaction force from the floor, i.e. it'll feel exactly the same as being stationary standing on the surface of the Earth. If I want to accelerate myself upwards, I will need to exert a force that is greater than mg. If I only 'match gravity's force', then my net force will be 0 and I won't accelerate. From the point of view of someone on the Earth's surface, if I 'match gravity', then my net force is 0, but since I was already moving down at the same rate as the elevator, I will continue to do so and remain stationary relative to the elevator's floor.
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2070)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US
NxCy wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel. When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder. When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier.
Why? Suppose I am standing in the elevator. Even if the elevator is moving down (relative to the surface of the Earth) at a constant speed, I will have a weight, mg, which, when standing, is balanced by the reaction force from the floor, i.e. it'll feel exactly the same as being stationary standing on the surface of the Earth. If I want to accelerate myself upwards, I will need to exert a force that is greater than mg. If I only 'match gravity's force', then my net force will be 0 and I won't accelerate. From the point of view of someone on the Earth's surface, if I 'match gravity', then my net force is 0, but since I was already moving down at the same rate as the elevator, I will continue to do so and remain stationary relative to the elevator's floor.
Yea...I see the flaw in my thought processes. I'll edit my previous posts. The only time someone should feel a different weight is when the elevator is accelerating/decelerating. These would be the only time when the external forces being exerted on one's body are changing. Specifically, these would be the only times the pressure sensors (nerves) in the skin would perceive different forces, which the brain would interpret as feeling heaver/lighter. What I wrote regarding the ball dropping should be accurate though.
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
I think about it in a more mathematically abstract way: speed and acceleration are two different units of measure, and you can't add or subtract different units of measure. Mathematically, asking how hard it would be to jump on a moving elevator would be like asking how much five seconds plus a kilogram is. Correct me if I'm wrong.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User, Experienced player (532)
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
I get what the first, second, third and fourth dimensions are, but can someone explain to me what those fifth, sixth, seventh dimensions etc are?
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Mitjitsu wrote:
I get what the first, second, third and fourth dimensions are, but can someone explain to me what those fifth, sixth, seventh dimensions etc are?
I can't answer that question, but I find it interesting how difficult it is for the human brain (well, at least for my brain, as I can only speak for myself) to comprehend the concept of more than 3 dimensions. Even though technically speaking we can only see a two-dimensional projection of the world (albeit a stereoscopic one), it's very easy for the human brain to comprehend and visualize three-dimensionality. Even in two-dimensional pictures, which are nothing but perspective projections of a three-dimensional object, our pattern recognition logic can make deductions of what kind of three-dimensional shape it is. We can also easily imagine, form a mental picture, of a three-dimensional object (eg. based on a description). In mathematics, geometry, there's no reason to limit oneself to three dimensions, however. The three is just a completely arbitrary number, for what math is concerned. It could be four, ten, or a million dimensions. But immediately when we go above three dimensions, it becomes extraordinarily hard for the human brain to comprehend what it means, or to visualize it. We essentially cannot visualize, form a mental picture, of what a four-dimensional object is like. We just lack that capacity. A mathematician can describe mathematical properties of such an object, but that doesn't really help visualize it. Of course four-dimensional objects can be physically visualized, but this is only possible by dropping one of the dimensions, usually by "projecting" the four-dimensional object onto a "three-dimensional canvas" of sorts (very similarly to how a photograph is a projection of a three-dimensional scene onto a two-dimensional canvas). Some information will be inevitably lost in this projection, so we don't get the full picture of what's going on. And when this object is animated, for example rotated, this three-dimensional projection seemingly acts in all kinds of weird ways (not dissimilar to how a projection of a three-dimensional object onto a two-dimensional canvas behaves when the object is rotated). It may also cause lots of unintuitive things, like two four-dimensional objects seemingly going through each other even though in four-dimensional space they never touch (which, again, is similar to what happens to the projection of two three-dimensional moving objects on a two-dimensional canvas). When it comes to physics, it becomes even more confusing when they talk about three spatial dimensions and a fourth "time" dimension. What does that even mean? Is the fourth dimension an actual spatial dimension or not? Is it just an abstract concept, a mathematical tool for calculations, or is it a real-world tangible thing? What's the meaning of this? Can two objects be at different locations in this "time dimension"? If yes, what does that mean? What is the "fourth dimension" of an object? If an object rotates in these four dimensions, what happens? Is it even possible? And then, when we start talking about even higher mathematical dimensions, we can throw all understanding out the window. If our brains have difficult time comprehending what a mathematical four-dimensional object or space is like, how much harder it is to understand even higher-dimensional objects...
Player (42)
Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany
As I understand it, extra dimensions in physics are simply a mathematical construct to solve problems. This is a very powerful way to solve complicated systems, and also to come up with new theories. One example I like to give: the Kepler problem. Newton became famous when he showed that, assuming that the gravitational force is of the form 1/r^2, the orbits of the planets around the sun form ellipses with the sun at one of the centers. A proof of this is given in most introductory physics courses. Another proof that can be written goes like this: for the 1/r^2 force you can write a vector that's conserved by the motion. From this conservation property, it's not very hard to show that the planet's orbit is an ellipsis. Also, in the (non-relativistic) hydrogen atom, where the force is also 1/r^2, the s, p and d orbitals all have the same energy, and this property is only true if the force goes with the inverse of the square radius, for all others it does not work. When confronted with this observation, there are two possible attitudes: A) You don't care, you already have a set of equations that describe the physics of the phenomenon you want. If all you want is to compute predictions from the theory, the problem is already solved, and you can use the formalism you want. B) You want to know *why* the 1/r^2 force is so special, why it conserves such an exotic vector and makes the energy levels for different states in hydrogen agree. If your attitude is in line with (B), then going to extra dimensions gives you an explanation. It turns out that the motion of a particle subject to a force that goes like 1/r^2 is completely equivalent to the motion of a free particle on the "surface" of a "sphere" on four-dimensional space. That is, if you have four space coordinates x,y,z,w, and study the movement on a space that satisfies x2+y2+z2+w2=1, what we call a 3-sphere, you can transform the solution to a movement in 3-dimensional space under the force 1/r^2! Although it's a bit abstract, you can see where the strange properties come from. The ordinary sphere has some symmetries, you can roll it in different ways so that it stays the same. The 3-sphere has more symmetries than the ordinary sphere does, so the conservation of the LRL vector in classical mechanics, and the s and p orbitals having the same energy in quantum mechanics are simply artifacts of this extra symmetries, which are very hard to see in the ordinary space, but obvious in the 3-sphere. So, one exotic way of solving this problem would be: take four very weird variables from the problem, construct a four-dimensional Euclidean space from it, and check that the problem is just a free particle, then transform the solution back to ordinary space and find the answer. If your attitude is (A), when presented with this solution, you'll think it's a huge waste of time. Why construct weird geometric spaces, study their symmetries, just to solve a problem that can be destroyed with ordinary calculus? You gained no new insight into it. However, it's often the case that physicists need to generalize their theories because the current ones they have are not good enough, and this kind of understanding can lead to new insights. For example, you could try different geometries and see what kind of forces you can solve. The solutions you will find would be very difficult to find otherwise. Using time as a fourth dimension is a similar story. You can write relativity considering space and time as separate entities, no problem. Once you have all the equations, if you can solve them, no errors will happen. However, it just happens that if you construct a four-dimensional spacetime, the formulas can be derived elegantly from geometric properties. About the question whether these "dimensions" are real, I leave it for the reader. Many people would say that spacetime is "real", because the equations of relativity are more elegant on it. By the same argument, the 4-dimensional space in the hydrogen atom would also be "real" because the equations are also more elegant. For this reason, I prefer to treat it as a convenient mathematical abstraction. P.S.: This trick of working on higher dimensions to search for theories in lower ones is a common pattern in modern physics. For anyone who's interested, a classic case is general relativity on five-dimensions with the fifth curled up on a cylinder, which is equivalent to gravity+eletromagnetism. In the worldline formalism, all particle interactions can be derived by curling up extra dimensions to implement the forces of nature. Also, it's conjectured that string theory compactified on a Calabi-Yau manifold, a 6-dimensional space with some exotic properties, gives all forces of nature, including gravity.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
So, essentially, there are two possibilities: 1) Space is not really 4-dimensional (with us merely seeing a 3-dimensional slice of it). It's simply that it just so happens that doing calculations in 4 dimensions simplifies lots of these calculations by a great deal (perhaps somewhat similarly to how complex numbers simplify certain calculations by a lot even though imaginary numbers "don't really exist" (by some definition of "exist").) 2) Space is actually physically (at least) 4-dimensional. We just can't see it with our eyes directly because of our limited perception and brain capacity. Our puny eyes and brains, or any device we can concoct, can only see a 3D slice of the 4D space, because of whatever physical reason. But this makes me think: If space is truly physically only 3-dimensional, and there is no actual physical tangible fourth "time dimension", would that make what we know, from GR, about the geometry of space a bit weird? How would that work?
Player (42)
Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany
I don't think it would make things weird. We must distinguish between a physical theory and the language where the theory is implemented. For example, you can write the exact same command line application in different programming languages. The code might look weird in one language and amazing in another. Whatever it looks like doesn't have anything to do with what the program does, but more about the features of the programming language. In mathematics, there's a concept called isomorphism, which basically means that two different mathematical objects can be treated as the same thing. Modern mathematics treats isomorphism as some form of ambiguity in the formalism, "good" mathematical languages should have as few isomorphism classes as possible, to avoid redundancies. In General Relativity, it's the same thing. It's not because, historically, the theory was derived from a geometrization of spacetime, that this is the only way to derive it. To give an example, there is a derivation due to Weinberg: you can derive the equations of general relativity by starting with a quantum theory in flat space (impose ad hoc that the speed of light should be the same in all inertial frames if you don't like time as a dimension), then require that gravity is a force transmitted by a spin-2 particle. After that, take quantum mechanics away and look at the classical limit. It turns out that the only possible equations which don't give any contradiction in this procedure are those of GR. There you have it, gravity completely derived in flat space. Incidentally, that's a point where I think popular expositions of physics do it wrong. It's usually said that the geometric interpretation is fundamental for understanding GR. I certainly think it's the easiest, but modern algebraic geometry tells us that these geometric definitions are ambiguous and there are lots of ways to arrive at the same math. In fact, that's the whole point of algebraic geometry!
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Is this treatment of spacetime as a dimension accomplished by using c to convert between distance and time? I've heardheard that sometimes equations are simpler if you refer to distances by the time it takes light to travel them, which is quite like what the lightyear does. It would also mean that velocity would be measured as a dimensionless fraction of c.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Player (42)
Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany
Yup, usually one measures time in meters, as in "1 meter of time is the time that light takes to travel one meter". But measuring distance in terms of time works too. The other (perhaps stronger) motivation is: one can derive Galilean mechanics by requiring that the laws of physics are invariant with respect to translations and rotations in 3D space, and that all inertial frames see the same distance between two points. To derive relativity, the last condition is changed, you now require that the speed of light is constant in all inertial frames, which of course causes space and time to change between frames. This derivation is very simple and quite accessible for anyone who knows high school math. If anyone is interested, any good physics textbook on relativity does it on the first chapter. It turns out that if you incorporate time as a dimension, changes of frames are equivalent to a rotation in spacetime. So, a simpler definition of relativity is just: require that the laws of physics are invariant with respect to translations and rotations in 4D spacetime. So, in some sense, it's a simpler derivation.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Warp wrote:
2) Space is actually physically (at least) 4-dimensional. We just can't see it with our eyes directly because of our limited perception and brain capacity. Our puny eyes and brains, or any device we can concoct, can only see a 3D slice of the 4D space, because of whatever physical reason.
Or, perhaps, we only see a 3D slice of the 4D spacetime because it's physically impossible to "see" into the time axis. We cannot look at the past or the future and "see" what's there. We can only perceive and measure what's in the current time slice, period, and thus we only see a 3D slice of the entire thing. Being able to detect things outside of the current time slice might break some fundamental ontological physical property, or something. (Of course GR predicts all kinds of wacky things, even without having to go to QM. Such as a particle going around a black hole inside its ergosphere, and colliding with its past self, creating a paradox.)
Player (42)
Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany
Warp wrote:
Or, perhaps, we only see a 3D slice of the 4D spacetime because it's physically impossible to "see" into the time axis. We cannot look at the past or the future and "see" what's there. We can only perceive and measure what's in the current time slice, period, and thus we only see a 3D slice of the entire thing. Being able to detect things outside of the current time slice might break some fundamental ontological physical property, or something.
This is, strictly speaking, not correct. The notion that the present is a 3-dimensional slice of spacetime is a Galilean/Newtonian one, not relativistic. The problem is, in relativity, simultaneity is a concept that depends on the observer. Two events that happen simultaneously in one frame are not simultaneous in another. Maybe this picture will help (the webpage where it's hosted is also good at explaining relativity (and also uses Cerulean and Vermilion, instead of Red and Blue to name the colors, probably a Pokemon fan!): Red represents the simultaneity surfaces (the 3d-slice) of one frame, while blue represents simultaneity surfaces of another frame moving at a constant velocity from it. Notice that the 3d-slice of blue is tilted with respect to red, so these surfaces are different. The fundamental physical property that we cannot "see" into the past is called causality. But notice that the notion of causality is very different in relativity, because simultaneity depends on the observer. The resolution of this apparent paradox is resolved by classifying the separation of spacetime events in three categories: * lightlike events, which are connected by a ray of light * timelike events, which are separated by a time interval in some frame * spacelike events, which are separated by a space interval in some frame It turns out that only timelike events can have a causality relation. Intuitively, that means that if a star A exploded at a point X and time T, and another one at a point X' and at a future time T', it's possible that the first explosion caused the second only if the separation between these events is timelike (which is just a fancy way of saying that they are close enough so that you can travel between them slower than the speed of light). Geometrically, that implies the following figure, which we call the light cone: Notice that "present" is not a 3d-slice, but a single point. Future is the forward light-cone, and past is the back one. Everything else is neither past or future, but completely independent of a current event. ---- To finish, I apologize if I was too technical with this post, but I think it's warranted for the following reasons: * When physicists describe something like extra dimensions and curvature in space, it's mostly a metaphoric construction. By this, I mean we don't actually believe that the world has a completely different scenario and a huge conspiracy happens to hide it. We are working with a well-defined mathematical entity which may or may not have analogies to the world as we usually perceive it, but the point is: we don't care, as long as it's consistent, it's possible to derive a physical theory. * When we learn to work with theories, a highly nontrivial part of the job is to separate what's only mathematical abstraction from measurable quantities. For example, in general relativity, there's a lot of talk about differential forms, tensors, etc., but what's actually measured are things like the precession of Mercury's orbit, the redshift induced by the expansion of the universe, gravitational lensing, etc. Most of the time you are working with two descriptions of the system which describe the same measurements, and it's a tough job to recognize it, one needs to go through the equations. * Because of my former points, it's not really possible for physics to answer is space really four-dimensional, because from the point of experiment that's a meaningless question. Physicists know this instinctively because they spent a lot of time deriving results, often with different formulations of the same theory, so they know that any experimental result that validates it automatically does the same for a huge amount of other formulations. If someone is studying relativity to find out whether dimensions are real, that's a question for philosophy, not physics. * Also related to the previous points, because in popular expositions of physics one has a limited scope to address these points, it's often desirable to be very metaphoric, but this line of reasoning has serious limitations. If you are content with metaphors, and never get to the true mathematical formulations, never separate what's pure math from what's actually observable, you have no hope of understanding why relativity is a consistent physical theories. As I emphasized before, metaphors are simply that: metaphors. I stress that all the spacetime considerations I posted here are discussed very well on the first chapters of any good book on relativity, and the math you need to understand to read them is not very hard in comparison to the rest of physics, and since there seems to be a considerable interest in relativity spanning several years in this thread, I think it's more productive to learn it appropriately from these sources and do the exercises than to keep relying on metaphors. My favorite explanation is the one given in the first chapters of this book. Have fun!
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
That got me thinking: Isn't even the notion of "three" dimensions arbitrary? Why is it precisely three? I started thinking like that because the notion of "two-dimensional space" is, ultimately, physically nonsensical. It's just a notion. A way of describing the abstract notion of a measurement. We say that eg. a length is a "1-dimensional" quantity, but only because we have decided on it being such. Likewise we have decided that area is a "2-dimensional" quantity pretty much by agreement. In real life there is no such a thing as a "2-dimensional" anything (because it would need to have zero thickness, which is only notionally, not physically, possible). So if "1-dimensional" and "2-dimensional" quantities are just abstract concepts, why wouldn't "3-dimensional" be such as well? We have just decided, for whatever reason, that there are 3 axes, and therefore space is "3-dimensional". But this is just a convention, an agreement. It's very handy, but still just an abstract notion. Or am I talking complete BS here?
Amaraticando
It/Its
Editor, Player (158)
Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 673
Location: Brazil
Can you arrange 4 pencils, such that any 2 distinct of them form a 90° angle? I can do it with 3 pencils.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Amaraticando wrote:
Can you arrange 4 pencils, such that any 2 distinct of them form a 90° angle? I can do it with 3 pencils.
Where does the 90-degree requirement come from? Isn't it, once again, just an arbitrary requirement? Why 90, and not 60, or 120, or pi?
Amaraticando
It/Its
Editor, Player (158)
Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 673
Location: Brazil
Warp wrote:
Amaraticando wrote:
Can you arrange 4 pencils, such that any 2 distinct of them form a 90° angle? I can do it with 3 pencils.
Where does the 90-degree requirement come from? Isn't it, once again, just an arbitrary requirement? Why 90, and not 60, or 120, or pi?
It comes from linear algebra (linear independence) and the way we usually model the axis in analytic geometry (90°, but could be a different value). Even so, I would ask you to display a 4th vector that is not a combination of the 3D base. EDIT: it's an open question why the real world is like this. I only argue that this is a real fact, not some arbitary mathematical construct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics