This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6727: Technickle's SNES Stone Protectors in 22:01.91

Grabbing the comment from userfiles since it explains why 1 player is being used.

Not 2 Players? Nope, I figured that even if two players where being controlled, one of the players would have to wipe out all the enemies with a musical move anyway, thus leaving either player 1 or player 2 stagnant.

"Figured". Does that mean you didn't bother checking like with Ms. Pac-Man? Cause to me it sounds like you didn't bother checking. Have a comparison with my input from 2019 (which was made around your previous submission) where I have no bloody damn idea what the hell I was doing, or knew what the best character combination was. Yes, you catch me on the boss. Which admittedly isn't shown on this clip. But that's irrelevant to the point when you're saying that 2 players is useless when it reaches the first boss about 500 frames faster than singleplayer. https://streamable.com/w034so Learn your speedgame. --- And yes, this is currently not branched with "1 player" but this game is more interesting with 2 players in my opinion, but it doesn't help the claim he made, that's why I ignored this point. But, I doubt how optimal this run was made in what seems to be done in such a short time.

I do agree with you on your point about the 2 players being more interesting than a 1 player scenario. However, I don't want to put myself in a situation where I am not aiming for a 2 player run. For the purpose of this submission, I only want to compare to a 1 player run if that is acceptable and or allowed in this context.

Ok then. Let's just play the game of contradictions with excuses again. Answer this then: Why did you scream at the first enemy when it's literally faster just to knock them out without a special? Literally. Just a normal Y while in the air for and a Heavy Punch with X when they're getting up.

Edit: Answering the Question: 1. The first screen on Snowy Village has 3 enemies, the reason I say 3 enemies is because the screen can be scrolled past the window guy, and thus revealing more enemies. 2. The screen with the popsicle and the enemy with a baton-like weapon also has a regular guard on the left side as well, I kill both with a musical move there. 3. The screen with the cake, the guy in the window has two enemies approaching from the left and right side of the screen. 4. The guys with the masks have protective features, meaning that in later stages I have to hit them first, then use the special move to kill them off, otherwise, they will still have lingering health. 5. The reason I use my musical move and miss sometimes on hitting two enemies at once is because I leave two enemies left, which allows me to kill both at the same time, this can be seen on "Beach Party" & Approaching the Castle Stages. Using the samurai sword will knock them down after the third hit, thus, sometimes off-screen.

There's only one enemy on the first screen. There's no second or third enemy like Coop. Just a single enemy. That you wasted time using your special on. Explain why you wasted time is all I want to know. You're not hitting a second enemy off screen. Because they don't exist. The next screen, with the health pickups is when there's more than one enemy on the screen. Edit: Your edit doesn't answer my question. Or my statement. Edit 2: Because using the reply function is difficult he decided to completely change the original post. Here's his original post:

Gathering multiple enemies at once will clear the screen faster, rather than focus on 1 enemy at a time with Y and a heavy X punch. The only real way this would be faster is if the screen only had 1 enemy altogether, there are several cases, small cases, but it does happen. If an enemy can follow you to other enemies it's faster. The problem with this game is that some screens only have 1 enemy, then and only then do more appear, this happens in Snowy Village & Forest of Mythrandir, there are probably more places, but those are the places that come to mind.

And after all that removal of text and massive rewrite. You still didn't answer the question/statement, you circled around it. Let me remind you, emphasis mine:

Why did you scream at the first enemy when it's literally faster just to knock them out without a special?

There's only one enemy on the first screen. Just a single enemy. That you wasted time using your special on.

Respond with a reply and not a silent edit, you're not doing yourself any favours by circling around.

Responding with a reply, using: "post a reply" Okay so, I guess that wasn't the right way to reply, so I will respond again in the correct format, sorry about that. anyway... Q. Spikestuff wrote: Why did you scream at the first enemy when it's literally faster just to knock them out without a special? A. I wrote: Knocking out the first enemy without a special will still lead to having 2 enemies on screen, therefore since I have 3 enemies on screen, the screen has been scrolled, I kill multiple enemies at once in 1 go.

I apologise on the goof, and that was a big goof and a half, don't know why they didn't spawn... (and yes, I did go right... they didn't spawn, I didn't save the input cause it was a throwaway, or I might be slowly going insane.) However, you should go over your inputs again, you have improvements: I didn't jump or punch if you want to know how I saved almost 30 frames, and yes that kills the 3 enemies. Also you could've just yelled at the Crystal Guard that comes down by hang glider instead of hitting them then yelling at 'em.

I didn't jump or punch if you want to know how I saved almost 30 frames, and yes that kills the 3 enemies.

Based on that, I'm assuming that sub 22 is likely possible, yes?

Technickle, this has happened too many times where you submit movies that are still suboptimal and easily improbable by spike. Is there a reason for this? Are you spending enough time making your movies? Are you struggling with anything in terms of the tools you use? Despite the hostility being exhibited in this thread, there are people around here that can help you learn how the tools work or some tips in optimization. However, If you keep this up, you are going to lose your submission privileges eventually. I would rather you try to learn something from all of this, but I’m not seeing it here. If you need help, just ask for it.

Based on that, I'm assuming that sub 22 is likely possible, yes?

Most likely. Especially if your scream's activation was five frames and not upwards of what I see is 13 frames. (upd: The 13 frames was actually for a different move, but it still should've be done in five) Edit: For the sake of a comparison, and a showcase. Here's 1 player comparison on the first level. 6754 vs 7112 on the Start input to advance from the stage cleared screen. I also need to do a correction to a comment. The Glider can be manipulated to die to just the scream. I found this out when doing my input from scratch and he didn't die in one hit, until I made him. (I input the scream early, so it's the game waiting for him to land on the ground to be knocked out) The way I made 'im is that I delayed how quickly I killed the previous enemy. Delaying the input when he appears also works, but that looks like a mess, so it's better to hide one. Edit 2: Corrected my Zink fight now it ends at 6617. Edit 3: Decided to look at your final two attacking inputs on the final boss, cause I really can't be bothered doing a full boss fight. You could've finished that boss faster than 79377 frames. I write faster than, cause that's just correcting two inputs, your final input without two inputs being corrected ends at 79409. (Yes, the movie isn't truncated properly) So to answer that question I respond to with "most likely" it's more like most definitely. In TAStime you can probably sub a 21:30 maybe even a sub/low 21.

I looked over the comparison video that you posted, and now I understand that it can be done in 5 frames instead of 13. I also was looking at how you were performing the move and you were facing to the left instead of the right, I can't for the life of me understand what button it is that makes Cornelius face left instead of facing right. I'm also not sure, to what I suppose that might be faster, than just the regular way. I also tested that instead of frame 1729, I've been able to get frame 1728, but I noticed that it requires an extra Right press for 1 frame, & still having the 13 frame implemented, but since now that it can be done in 5 frames instead of 13 frames, it most likely will be overruled. Moreover, when I do the move for 5 frames, now it only works on frame 1734 unless I'm doing something wrong there.

I can't for the life of me understand what button it is that makes Cornelius face left instead of facing right.

Mirroring your Left/Right input when doing the special to Right/Left instead. It's a common thing with most games to mirror your input when you're facing the opposite direction.

I am requesting a file replacement that's now better than the 22:01.91. just redid everything and got a 21:26.46 This new movie file is also in my Userfiles now

next time, you should link directly to the file instead of saying to "go there". EDIT: here's that link http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/62879586377048664

Sorry. I'm completely stumped. How? How did you not improve on my input? The first time I hit Start on the "Stage Complete" screen is at 6754, you hit it at 6852. (from power on) This is with very bad input at that Zink fight, as I faced the wrong way. I even wrote out clear as day on what to do with the Glider. Manipulate, don't attack the Glider from the sky. The jump attack is slow, that's why I told you that on the first enemy and showed you the comparison for the Glider. This probably also opens the excuse of "this is why you should do 2 player, so issues like this don't happen, where you can attack then instantly follow with a special between the two players." I also cleared the first 3 enemies sooner than you. https://streamable.com/ti5q69 This is looking at my v1 input, against your new input. Yes congrats. You subbed 21:30 as I assumed, but it's still littered with errors and some can be found from the first stage. I'm stumped, I don't know what to make of this. I wrote the frames to beat (6754 then 6617) but you didn't improve the v1 or matched the v2 where the only difference is I faced towards Zink. Edit: I need to ask this. How many days did this improvement take to make since it's from scratch? Cause going from forum posts it's maximum 3 days.

Are you doing the special move on frame 1729? because if so, I tested that and it didn't work for me for some reason, which is why 1734 did work. Also in what way are you able to manipulate the enemy from the glider, other than early special move, while waiting for him to drop to the ground, because I thought that enemy has extra health, is the movement stopping at a certain distance ... or? Because I'm honestly confused. I couldn't kill that enemy without first attacking.

Tichnickle, In less than 10 minutes of testing, I was also able to beat you on the first 3 enemies of the game. I'm not sure if it's as fast as Spike's, but it's close. (My scream input does occur on frame 1737 which appears the same a Spike's image above, but I'm not sure if the video he shared is from that particular input). Both Spike and I attack the left two enemies first. I believe this yields a faster time due to death animation timing with the game only having to process 1 enemy on the 2nd scream...but that's speculation and I can't (currently) prove it. Doing it this way requires walking right further before doing the first scream, hence the attack not happening until frame 1737. I can't comment on the glider as I haven't tested that far (nor am I particularly interested in doing so). Another question: I know you've at least tested one other character; but have you tested ALL the other characters to confirm that this is indeed the best character to use for the game? TASing is not about just doing something fast and quickly submitting. It requires doing something, then doing something else, then something else, then something else, and so on...until you've tested every possibility you can imagine to see which is actually fastest. It's a time-consuming process and not something that typically occurs in a short span of time. I'm not trying to discourage you...simply trying to get you to slow down and pay more attention to the quality of what you're submitting instead of rushing to do submissions as quickly as possible. I'll reiterate what EZGames69 warned earlier: If you continue to submit runs that are noticeably sub-optimal, you'll put yourself at risk of being banned from submitting. I'd encourage you to cancel this submission and once again re-evaluate it. Spend more time with it. Try different methods...even actions that may not initially seem faster can ultimately yield a better overall time as the above situation proves -- delaying the first scream and changing it's direction actually yields a faster time to moving onward.

om, nom, nom... minty!