Imagine another TAS improving this one by a lot of time, haha!!! Good job though!!

Actually, it’s not hard to imagine for any Sonic TASer. This game proved it’s complexity many times, and there are really tens of examples when a “good” run got updated by many seconds, or even minutes. This game is full of inobvious strategies and things like «going slower to go faster», a good example is MGZ2 boss, where delaying the last hit by a few frames makes the whole boss battle many seconds faster. For years this was not known because every TASer just tried to beat that boss in a frame-perfect way.

Imagine another TAS improving this one by a lot of time, haha!!! Good job though!!

Actually, it’s not hard to imagine for any Sonic TASer.

I believe that it is true for many other games too, if to dig deep most of published movies can be improved. But most of other games not have such great TASers community as Sonic games to regulary find new and new improvements.

This cannot be rejected because "too many branches", there's already 3 Sonic ring attacks and an Amy Rose hack submissions, these are just made up challenges & an unofficial hack, unlike this Sonic solo. To delay or reject for this reason would be unfair to the author. No more sonic ring attacks or hacks should be accepted anymore imo.

This cannot be rejected because "too many branches", there's already 3 Sonic ring attacks and an Amy Rose hack submissions, these are just made up challenges & an unofficial hack, unlike this Sonic solo. To delay or reject for this reason would be unfair to the author. No more sonic ring attacks or hacks should be accepted anymore imo.

There are a number of problems with this reasoning. 1. One of the ring attack TASes is for Sonic 2. It's unfair to say there are three of them without specifying that one of them isn't even for this specific game. 2. Hacks are published based on audience reception, if one makes it through then it deserves a spot on the site based on that alone. Amy is sitting very comfortably in Moons right now, meaning that even after all this time, people are generally still positive about it, and with an improvement run in progress I can't see that changing at all. 3. Consider that there's already a solo Sonic run that shows off more of the game, and consider that the any% branch is already technically playing as Sonic. Optimization level/new tech aside, what does this run have that those runs don't? My take on separate branches is that they need variety to warrant publication. Sonic characters all tend to play fairly similarly, just with each of them having one or two unique movement abilities that, in my opinion, still don't make them varied enough to warrant every single one having distinct any% and 100% categories published. I can understand only having 100% for every character, and I even support that, as more run logically translates to more variety, giving each individual character more of a chance to show off how different they are. This brings me back to the ring attack runs. Ring attack runs, to me, fill that gap of being varied really nicely (though I do think having 2 runs with the same character for 1 game is a bit much) (EDIT: disregard this, misread categories while tired, sorry!). They're basically full-game exhibitions, the strategies are super unique, they're constantly moving around and doing interesting things, and it never gets boring because each stage is laid out completely differently so there's always innovation in how they're handled. I feel like I just reworded the same thing four times. No wonder I was always great at essays! It's not a matter of being unfair to the author, either. It's just a natural process of how the site handles things in its current state. Even if the run gets rejected, there's always a chance that a rule/site structure change down the line could see it come back and be published. It's happened before. It just happened very recently, in fact. It could easily happen again with a high quality run like this. Honest question: If ring attack runs are arbitrary to you, why is this run not arbitrary? Is there significant enough of a difference for it? Is a general viewer unfamiliar with Sonic TASing going to get something noticeable out of it that the 100% run or the normal Sonic+Tails runs wouldn't otherwise give them? I'd like to see someone with more intimate Sonic knowledge (NOT THAT KIND) chime in on things like that. NON-EDIT EDIT: Everything above this was written yesterday while lacking sleep, so sorry if it sounds weird. The following should technically be a separate post, but double posting is bad. I got curious about similarities and just watched this run and the Sonic+Tails run simultaneously, level by level, comparing them. My verdict is that an optimized any% run would be virtually identical to this one, save for the following stages: ANGEL ISLAND 1: Tails is able to move Sonic during the opening cutscene. This is a minor difference at best, the levels otherwise looked 100% similar except for the new tech in this run. HYDROCITY 1: The published any% run is able to use Tails to perform a full level zip. Solo Sonic can't do this. This is the biggest difference between the two runs. LAUNCH BASE 2: Solo Sonic seems to be unable to do a boss/cutscene skip that any% is able to perform. MUSHROOM HILL 1/2: Tails can break the victory cutscene in Act 1, though the new tech in solo Sonic to go through Act 2 might warrant that obsolete anyway: Rough time estimates on the encodes: This run spends about 30 seconds in MH2 (starting from the end of the MH1 victory cutscene), while the published S+T run spends about 40 seconds in it (starting from using Tails to break the MH1 victory cutscene), both ending at the very first hit on Eggman. I'm assuming that an optimized S+T run would break the cutscene and activate that new zip immediately, following the same general route, though I'm not familiar enough with Sonic TASing to know whether or not that's actually the case. HIDDEN PALACE: Tails is able to quick kill Knuckles and skip the rest of the level afterward. DEATH EGG 1: That weird hit-the-targets thing in the middle of the level is about 3 IGT seconds faster with Tails, otherwise it seems like both runs would be the same. Here's the brief notes I took while watching. They're not great, but I'm including them for posterity. Keep in mind I'm not a Sonic TAS expert so my untrained eye might be wrong about things. I'd gladly appreciate corrections to anything I'm wrong about! As it stands, I don't really see these as significant enough differences to warrant a solo Sonic any% publication. Hydrocity 1 is the only major gameplay difference, as solo Sonic actually has to navigate through the whole level (and it's quite entertaining, in fact). Everything else is a boss/cutscene/uninteresting gameplay skip. Don't get me wrong, the new tech on display in this run is amazing, it's incredibly well made and optimized and super entertaining to watch, but apart from a single stage with different gameplay, an optimized S+T any% run would serve the exact same purpose as this run. This just feels like an S+T run that arbitrarily doesn't use Tails. It's a fantastic run, but I don't think it deserves a new branch. ...But holy hell am I excited to see an S+T any% improvement with all this new tech.

biggest specific changes are in Hydrocity 1 and Hidden Palace

Hidden Palace in "Sonic" is the same as in "Tails" though.

There's that too, yeah. I was just strictly comparing this run to the Sonic+Tails any% since they're the easiest to directly compare. I had the idea to compare to some of the other published runs, but wanted to wait for some feedback/explanations/corrections first. With the main difference just being down to Hydrocity 1, I might as well do it now. Solo Tails is able to get the zip in Hydrocity 1 that this run can't do (not technically important compared to this run, but stating it regardless). Knuckles can't get this zip and has to play the stage normally, but Knuckles is able to use a different route through the first half of the level. The Knuckles and solo Sonic routes do eventually converge at that halfway point and look identical up through to the end, though. Sonic 100% also plays Hydrocity 1 with the exact same restriction as this run, and the bonus stage is at the very end of the level, meaning an optimized run in 100% would be the exact same nearly the entire way through, except it spindashes left instead of right at the very end. Painful as it is to say this, without Hydrocity 1 or Hidden Palace, this run officially doesn't have any strictly unique content as far as I'm aware. Note that I mean strictly unique content as routing/strategies that are unique to this specific run. The new tech, awesome as it is, doesn't count as unique as it's applicable to other runs, namely the already published solo Sonic 100% and S+T runs. Different setups to hit the same full-level zips also don't count, as that is technically just suboptimal strategy (assuming the optimal strategy is using Tails to clip, of course). I'd still love to hear feedback from Kaan or anyone else with more technical Sonic knowledge in case my analysis is wrong in any way.

So I finally watched the TAS for myself. Now I haven't done an in-depth comparison like Samsara, but at no point did I feel that it was that different from what I had seen before in S3K. If the differences exist, they're subtle, which is very bad for a game with nearly 10 published branches.

Sorry I took a while to respond. I can tell you that the differences in an updated Sonic and Tails run would not be as subtle. To help prove this I'm going to list out the updated strats. This may take some time.

Angel Island 1- First half would more or less be the same as the published run with the second loop zip. Second half will use the same zip from the NG+ tas thanks to a new 2P stair clip technique. Also has frame perfect boss fight Angel Island 2- This does need testing but Sonic and Tails may end up taking the top route. There is another lightning shield monitor I can grab and with Tails' help Sonic can take the top route without losing his shield. Otherwise it will more or less be the same as this run. Just with small timesaves courtesy of Tails. Hycrocity 1- As mentioned by other this level has a level wrap. Updated version will likely just being a slightly faster version of published run. Also has frame perfect boss fight Hycrocity 2- Will probably be the same as this run with a frame perfect boss fight. Marble Garden- Will probably be the same as this run with 1 possible timesave with Tails. Carnival Night- Possible return of wheel glitch thanks to new strats found by the rta community. Also faster Act 1 boss fight. If wheel glitch ends up being slower then the level will just be a faster version of this run. Icecap-Sonic can get slope glitch much sooner with the first ice block. Will also use act 2 boss skip like in this run. Launch Base 1- Will probably be the same as this run with faster boss fight. Launch Base 2- Sonic can't skip the 1st boss and eggmobile ride by himself. He can't do the act 1 in act 2 glitch and even if he could he still wouldn't be able to reach Knuckles' boss area. Mushroom Hill 1- Sonic will do the level wrap without dropping down inside the walls since Sonic and Tails can beat the boss fast enough together to leave the screen unlocked. Mushroom Hill 2- Sonic and Tails won't be taking the same route as this run. The reason for this is only the horizontal boundary remains unlocked during the score tally while the vertical ones stay where they are which leaves the death plane at the bottom of the screen. As a result they have to go up top like in the published run to be able to progress during the score tally. As for updated S+T strats. Sonic may end up using the lightning shield from the act 1 boss arena. Will also have a faster boss fight followed by the early capsule button glitch like in the ring attack. Flying Battery 1- Much faster level wrap as shown in the video below. Also with Tails' help Sonic can reach the boss without having to wait for objects to load. Link to video Flying Battery 2- Will likely use the same route as the one in this run. Sandopolis 1- Other than a slightly faster boss this will be more or less the same. Sandopolis 2- Good possibility of level wrap via light switch glitch. Will also have frame perfect boss fight. Lava Reef 1- Faster level wrap (shown in the video below) that skips basically all the content in the level. With Tails' help Sonic will be able to kill the 2 circular turrets faster Link to video Lava Reef 2- Possibility of slightly faster level wrap with Tails' help. Otherwise the level will pretty much be the same. Hidden Palace- Minor timesave with the first spikes. Considerably faster Knuckles fight with 2P strat. Also skips all the cutscenes. Sky Sanctuary- Will more or less be the same as the published run. Death Egg 1- Will likely use a different route from this run. Also gravity room skip is a thing with Tails' help. Frame perfect phase 1 redeye fight. Link to video Death Egg 2- Fast death during act transition as shown in the published run. Will likely have faster level wrap with Tails' help. Timewise the only boss Tails will save time with are the fingers. Also no invisible floor glitch in the final boss arena as it's not necessary and wastes 2 frames. As I was typing this the problem became more and more apperent to me. Compared to the 2014 Sonic and Tails run an updated run would indeed be more different from this one. In fact a good chunk of the game is heavily impacted by not having Tails. However there are indeed some levels that would only have slight differences which I feel is okay to some extent. I made this run with the intention to show off how Sonic would handle each level by himself. I thought that by itself would be interesting. If the game wasn't as heavily impacted as it is I wouldn't have even gone through with making this run. With the possible exception of Lava Reef 2 no level would end up being exactly the same.

Going through that post, I'm seeing a lot of either "this will more or less be the same" or just talking about level wraps and zips in general. Here's the big problem that I see: S3K is zipping. It's a lot of zipping, level wraps, watching a screen fly by in fast motion until it finally lands at the boss of the area. The only way these runs differ is in the decreasingly often sections of actual gameplay, which most of the time is just to set up the next zip, and most of the time the setups are near identical except one method is slightly slower than another. This would be a MUCH different story without the zipping, if every character actually had to play the levels and were able to get through using their unique abilities. Going off of one of your earlier posts in the thread, I think the branch thing isn't mentioned in Movie Rules because it's almost never a problem, it's only in very few cases where a game could actually warrant the publication of several branches. I admit that's a flaw with the rules. It's mentioned in the Judge Guidelines, which is why the current Judges (and myself as a former Judge) are even talking about it in the first place, but I do agree that it should be more clearly communicated to TASers and audience as well. I understand that a game's community would see no reason not to have every possible branch published, especially in S3K's case where there are actually different playable characters that would normally lend itself perfectly to having a run for each character, but the community has to try to see things from the general audience's perspective. When it comes down to it, is there a reason to watch all 9 published S3K runs (competition mode is excluded here, Amy hack is included)? Is it worth it for a member of the general audience to specifically sit down and watch every single branch of this game? I'd argue it isn't, and part of my argument is that I already am a member of the general audience, and recently I've watched four of those runs, plus this one multiple times, and I can honestly say that there wasn't much difference to me, and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks that. Keep in mind that even if this run gets rejected, it doesn't mean it can't be looked at again and published in the future. The rules can change, and they HAVE changed, and runs have gotten second chances due to these rule changes and a lot of them have ended up published after all. Timeframe isn't an issue either: Look at when this run was submitted VS when it was finally published. 11 years. Rejection is only really the end of a run if it's noticeably suboptimal (which this run absolutely isn't) or if there are other glaring issues (emulation, flagrant rule-breaking, things like that, which again this run isn't any of those things). The branch thing isn't even so much a hard rule as it is a philosophy, even if there are times (like now) where we do enforce it as a rule. It's a really difficult case. I just hope that if it does end up getting rejected, it doesn't kill the community's motivation to improve the other runs, as there seems to be a LOT that the published runs are missing. Maybe we can take a look at this run again when the other categories are finally improved and it's a lot easier to compare? Otherwise, we can take a look at it again in the future when the rules change, and yes I'm fully expecting that to happen.

From an entertainment perspective, I do gotta say I would like to watch Zipless more than a new character branch like this

Words. Good ones.

I agree with basically everything said here.

I took some time and watched the movie in emulator, fast forwarding though things that were familiar from the S+T any%...and I skipped the vast majority of the movie. I don't think we need another any% run like this. However, I DO think we need more any% runs that don't use zips or terrain-ejection glitches.

Personally, I don't there should be a hard limit on how many branches are published for each game, or even a soft limit along the lines of "when you reach this number of movies, it's time to start seriously question new branches" Instead, I like to focus on significant gameplay differences, or "compelling differences" like the Judge Guidelines say. In my personal experience, route differences are usually less noticeable unless they are drastically different, and I mean drastically. What stands out more and I feel is a better criteria is looking at the techniques used. Does a new branch consistently apply techniques that are not present in the current branches? Let's use the Ring Attack runs as an example, since I saw those contested earlier. One of the byproducts of collecting every ring is that a large portion of the level needs to be visited, so just naturally with that goal, some techniques, like for example glitching to the end of the level become less useful. I'm feeling the effect of that on the Aero the Acrobat 2 100% run I'm currently working on. In the any% run, wall zips were the way to beat most levels. However, in 100%, when I have to visit most of the map anyway, they become much less useful. It doesn't mean that the move is disallowed, just that the goal changes the usefulness of the technique. We've had a few runs rejected because they didn't apply techniques that weren't present in the published movies, even if it makes a different route or is highly optimized. A really good example of this is #5978: The_Tas_Master's N64 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time "All Medallions" in 53:21.70. While it's reliance on techniques that weren't present in other branches wasn't the only reason that movie was rejected, it's still a significant one. One that's more in line with this submission is #1572: mr_roberts_z's N64 Super Mario 64 "Coinless-Cannonless-Capless" in 1:03:10.80, which people also felt was too similar to published movies. Like a few others, I watched the currently published "Sonic and Tails" TAS and compared it with this TAS and the Tails only TAS level by level, noting where things changed. Keep in mind, that the casual viewer is not going to look at these things in that amount of detail. They are going to watch the entire movie and mostly go by feel, and if it feels the same as a published movie, it might as well be the same. Since Sonic and Tails has access to Tail's moveset, I was expecting Tail's techniques to be similar to the any% movie. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Tail's levels actually do feel quite different for the most part. Enough that I believe a new branch is justified for the category. Sonic alone, however, didn't. I think it was about 2/3s of the way through the Sonic 3 portion where I thought of a big reason for this. Everything that Sonic can do Sonic and Tails can do as well. It's just that Sonic alone doesn't have access to Tail's moveset. With this in mind, the run is less of a run with a different character and more like Sonic and Tails, but Sonic is not allowed to use Tails. Movies where the moveset of a character is limited in some way can, should, and have been accepted for publication if the limit leads to different solutions in almost every circumstance. Movies like [1868] SNES Super Mario World "no powerups, maximum exits" by PangaeaPanga in 1:18:23.22, [2062] N64 Super Mario 64 "70 stars, no Backwards Long Jump" by Jesus, Kaylee, MICKEY_Vis11189, MoltovM, Nahoc, snark, sonicpacker, ToT, CeeSammerZ, coin2884, Eru, Goronem, Mokkori, Nekuran, Nothing693 & pasta in 42:58.52, or to use a non Mario example, [3375] SNES Disney's Aladdin "capeless" by jaysmad in 16:36.78 are accepted because limiting the moveset like this removes a tool that was used constantly in the other runs to the detriment of all other possibilities. So oddly removing options actually leads to increased variety of techniques employed in almost the entire run. I noticed in the any% movie that Sonic relies on Tails a lot less than I initially thought, and unless he's using Tails, the solutions are going to be the same as a Sonic only run. In terms of different characters being justified for branches, let me use another game to help provide a barometer for my limits. In Super Mario Bros 2 (US version), I don't think there's any reason to have a Toad only, Luigi only, or Mario only run. Peach only is much more justified. Even though all four characters play differently, Peach is the only one with a noticeable unique ability. She can float, which leads to significant changes. I see no reason why the others would be really unique in that regard, even though Luigi's extra jump height does give him different route options in some levels. Also, very minor point that shouldn't have bearing, but I feel is worth mentioning: the speedrun.com leaderboard for this game lumps Sonic solo and Sonic and Tails into the same category. One small thing I find disappointing is the currently published any% is five and a half years old, and watching the submission in comparison to that, I can really see the difference that those years make in understanding the game and adding further optimization. The improvements this movie makes really should be represented in a published Sonic 3 and Knuckles TAS. I don't think this movie is different enough to justify a new branch, but if we could find any way to publish this movie without adding new branches, I think we should make that happen. I also would be interested to see a level by level breakdown for how this compares to the currently published any%, especially to see if it's actually faster on any levels.

Lots of good arguments here. Unfortunately I've kinda just run out of stuff to say. I could try to argue but I'd likely just repeat an argument I've already made. Also I have a compromise I wanna propose. So I still do want a new any% branch, especially since this would be the last one. However I am willing to compromise. Since some people don't feel this Sonic alone run is different enough from a Sonic and Tails run, why not just have this submission obsolete that one? I mean I did beat the total ingame time by a good margin (as you can see from feos' post), and if a new Sonic and Tails were to be made it could very easily beat my Sonic alone run.

Also, very minor point that shouldn't have bearing, but I feel is worth mentioning: the speedrun.com leaderboard for this game lumps Sonic solo and Sonic and Tails into the same category.

It shouldn't have any bearing. In the rta Sonic category you aren't allowed to control Tails with a second controller. It's similar to how they do Sonic 2 runs. I opted to not use Tails at all because not having 2nd player control felt like a dumb restriction. Also they have a coop category which is the actual rta variant of a Sonic and Tails run.

feos: Based on that chart, this movie actually beats the published any% in terms of level times. Now this might sound like a completely crazy suggestion, but maybe it could obsolete the any%?

It doesn't actually sound crazy at all, since those 2 runs are also the most similar in content across all the chars: Post #494162.

In-game time is definitely faster in this run. It's actually even faster than the table suggests:

This run spends about 30 seconds in MH2 (starting from the end of the MH1 victory cutscene), while the published S+T run spends about 40 seconds in it (starting from using Tails to break the MH1 victory cutscene), both ending at the very first hit on Eggman.

So S+T essentially gets a 10 second head start before the IGT starts running in that run. S+T also get a 4 IGT second head start in Angel Island 1 from the cutscene breaking, meaning the total time save is actually closer to 20-25 IGT seconds based on pure comparable gameplay. I'd support this run obsoleting any% until a new any% comes around, with the caveat that this run is still branched as Sonic only and the description makes it clear that the improvement is purely IGT, the runs are close enough in content to warrant the obsoletion, and the realtime loss is solely because of a cutscene that solo Sonic can't skip. It wouldn't sit right with me any other way.

Well I guess it's settled then. Just have this submission obsolete the current Sonic and Tails any% run. This even solves a lot of issues that were brought up throughout this thread. Now that I've thought about it some more, the idea of obsoleting a Sonic and Tails run with only Sonic sounds amazing.

I'd support this run obsoleting any% until a new any% comes around, with the caveat that this run is still branched as Sonic only and the description makes it clear that the improvement is purely IGT, the runs are close enough in content to warrant the obsoletion, and the realtime loss is solely because of a cutscene that solo Sonic can't skip. It wouldn't sit right with me any other way.

I second this. I feel that the published video should still distinguish the fact that this is a Sonic alone run in some way.

If anyone disagrees with this, please speak up!

I agree with this solution!

feos requested that I make a comparison encode between this movie and the published Sonic + Tails TAS. So I did that: Link to video Edit: I’ve changed the encode to remove the real time comparisons, as they’re irrelevant for IGT.

The side by side encode makes it clear that feos is making the right call here. Also, this is a spectacular run, kaan55.