This topic is for the purpose of discussing #753: krieg747's NES Contra in 10:08.43

Nice idea. But I feel it can be improved some. - Sometimes one block breaks before the other in the base levels. If you did it as fast as possible, both would break at the same time. - The twitching is silly. Do it together with the music or something, or at least not as fast. - The vertical level seemed to focus more on duet synchronized swimming than speed. - Most importantly, it's slower than the published 1-player verison. Because of this, I voted no. But I would love to see a 2-player version which beats the published one.

- Sometimes one block breaks before the other in the base levels. If you did it as fast as possible, both would break at the same time.

i honestly dont think its possible to synch the shots of both scatters. after you start concentrating the shots, the bullet orientation is more or less random. if youre suggesting redoing it until every single shot by both is exactly alike, then this run is impossible.

- The twitching is silly. Do it together with the music or something, or at least not as fast.

the twitching is my signature. they always to it together unless theyre obviously alternating.

- The vertical level seemed to focus more on duet synchronized swimming than speed.

both characters are incessantly jumping towards the top at full speed. whats the problem?

- Most importantly, it's slower than the published 1-player verison.

thats becuase its more difficult to do. where 1 player would easily slip through, 2 players can not.

if you would like me to try and make a better run, please explain these things to me. - exactly what you dont like - how to control both streams of scatter so they shoot alike - how to make the lazers shoot favorably in the Energy Zone - how to jump through the final barrage of falling claws in The Hangar i did my best with what i knew. thats all anyone can do.

I watched your run, then Genisto's 1 player run, and half of your run again to make sure I was seeing things correctly. Your run overall is pretty good, but when there's Genisto's run out there, it's really hard to accept this one. I really liked the first stage and thought that there wasn't really anything that could be improved, other than possibly the boss fight, but I'm not sure about that one. But here's a list of possible improvements: Somehow Genisto was able to shoot out more or less constant streams with his spread shot. It seems to help out a whole lot, especially on the base levels. With the 2 player run, it's vital to be in control of lag. It slows down your run a lot, and it's the main reason why it's probably not possible to surpass the 1 player run in speed, though if it was minimized by shooting the correct things and not shooting when unneccesary, it should be possible to bring the times closer together. So it would probably be wise to, say, shoot the crowds of guys in the base with one character when there's a lot of lag caused by them. There's a lot of unneccesary shooting in many levels. It really adds to the lag. It's a whole lot harder to only take neccesary shots in a two player run, especially with the confusion on whether or not it's better to kill an enemy or not based on whether it causes more lag to kill it from the bullet lag or just leave it alone to clutter the screen. Though I think that a simple case may be the waterfall boss. If it's a set amount of time for it to open its mouth, regardless of when its arms are killed, both players shouldn't shoot at once, since it causes a lot of lag. Otherwise, I'm not totally sure what's best. It's a really difficult thing to do, but I think it's needed in this case, because comparisons to Genisto's 1 player run are inevitable. The only exception seems to be in base levels, where I think it's a factor in making a more singular stream, though I'm not certain. In levels such as the energy zone and warehouse, it may or may not be faster to have the one in front wait for a moment so that they coincide, so that the timing with the lasers are handled better (I'm not sure about that one) and so that the boost of speed from the cart can be used (not sure whether this would save time either) Genisto is able to jump over the spike things that come down on that long stretch near the end of the warehouse, and it would save time, as you said. Sorry, though, I don't know how to do it. But it must be possible somehow. On the waterfall level, it saves time to not have both characters jump at the same time. For example, on the first cliff, you run until both characters are able to make it onto the first cliff. If you have the one in front jump first and barely make it onto the cliff then have the second character jump when he can barely make it onto the platform, it would save time. There are a few places like that, mostly the beginning cliff and the area around the last moving platform, that can save time. And I'd say that if you save so much time with the first player that the second one ends up dying as the screen scrolls up quickly to the boss, that's fine. I think that death would be appreciated if it happened, since it would really show that you're doing it as fast as possible, but I don't think that death would happen if both players move as quickly as possible. But in all levels, don't worry if the second player falls behind. Just forcus on the first player moving as quickly as possible. Have the second player worry about lag and such. Just have the first player move as ideally as possible without adding too much lag. In other words, it'll be a whole huge headache to try to optimize the run. I think you did a pretty good job, and if this was made about two years ago, it probably would be accepted. It's just that there have been so many runs and so many optimizations in that amount of time that it's really hard for most people to get a run that'll be accepted when compared to runs of experts like Genisto. =( But if those changes are made (obviously not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination, and would probably increase the rerecord count about tenfold), I would joyfully choose Yes, and I think most other people would as well. Because it would be great to see. As it is now, though, I don't think it's optimized enough to be accepted. It was a good attempt, though. And it's something that someone really should be working on, so I'm glad you chose it. =)

i understand what youre saying, but what youre suggesting is that i do genisto's run, but with a second useless character trailing behind. if so, thenwhats the point of a two player run? i understand the criticism about the streams and stuff, but you suggesting more or less that the second player remains useless in an effort to let the first player go as fast as possible. i originally did this as a balance of style and speed. one player helps the other out by shooting something, which happens alot in levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 as far as i remeber. also, things like the four armed AHHHH in the base levels. i tried to keep it interesting looking becuase a 2 player 1 man run isnt a very common thing. i just think remaking genisto's run with the addition of the red player trying to keep up is a little silly. thats just my opinion though and probably means nothing.

No, he's suggesting you do a two player run that meets or exceeds the quality of the already published one player run. And also, keep away from the lag.

heres one thing i dont understand that seems so be contradictory in all of the critiques. how am i supposed to control the lag by not shooting during inappropriate times while ALSO creating the constant scatter stream like genisto? the scatter warm up take at least 1 second to do. in many levels like the bases, genisto is constantly shooting in order to be the most effective. however, if i were to do that, i would lag myself out. what im hearing is "dont shoot alot, but shoot as if you were", which sounds impossible to me. am i wrong? someone clear this up for me. if this is not accepted, i'll gladly make another run as soon as i know what you guys want.

OK, I've actually watched the run now, and I have to vote no, because it wasn't precise enough. It just didn't have a polished feel, especially the parts where you were doing the "syncronized swimming" part you clearly weren't doing it as quickly as possible. And there were definately places where you stopped to separate the characters for no good reason. You didn't utilize the mine carts to there fullest. Etc. It's ok, but it suffers from the death of one thousand cuts.

OK, I've actually watched the run now, and I have to vote no, because it wasn't precise enough. It just didn't have a polished feel, especially the parts where you were doing the "syncronized swimming" part you clearly weren't doing it as quickly as possible. And there were definately places where you stopped to separate the characters for no good reason. You didn't utilize the mine carts to there fullest. Etc. It's ok, but it suffers from the death of one thousand cuts.

I "stop" to seperate the charatcers becuase otherwise, it would look as if it were a 1 player run, which it is not. If you look closely enough, you'll see that the second player stops so they can become seperated. This has no effect on the speed of player 1, the player who is leading the screen. I also do not use the mine cart for the same reason. Using the mine cart trick, for some reason, makes player 2 go twice as fast as player 1, essentially making both characters synch with one another, making it look like theres ONE player again. Making it look like theres 1 player takes away alot from the feel of the run. I would like to hear from bisqwit or someone. It seems as if you guys want a regular video that just has 2 players beating the game, as opposed to a video thats trying to create "art as it waits" like the guidelines say. I understand that a few things could be improved, such as the claws in lvl 7, the randomization of the lazers in lvl 6, and killing the lights at the same time in lvls 2 and 4. I'll be more than happy to fix those if that would mean my movie would be accepted. But other than that, I have no idea what you want to see. also

This is a two-player timeattack at Double Dragon II - but here's what's curious: there's only one player - controlling both characters! That's really hard to do. This is not a perfect timeattack. To make it perfect would require using the "flying knees" technique almost all the time, and it would be somewhat boring to watch. This movie uses different techniques more.

now imagine this

This is a two-player timeattack at Contra - but here's what's curious: there's only one player - controlling both characters! That's really hard to do. This is not a perfect timeattack. To make it perfect would require synching up both players almost all the time, and it would be somewhat boring to watch. This movie uses different techniques more.

i think that says what ive been trying to say.

I made the same choice on battletoads. Instead of putting both characters at the exact same place and moving them together (on level 8), i delayed one of them or moved differently, or else the run would look too robotic and predictable.

oh man. i would have been honored if you made your 1337th post in this thread. so close.

>both characters are incessantly jumping towards the top at full speed. whats the problem? CoolBumpty explained this sort of... did you understand what I meant? You focus on having both players jumping at the same time when having them jump one at a time would be faster. Redoing every shot until it comes out right is supposedly what Genisto did to improve the previous version by about 30 seconds. (I cannot find the comment now but I remember reading it.) And yeah, that's probably not very funny. Even if you optimize it heavily with focused bullet streams and lag control, I think there are plenty of possibilities to fool around and create art. I stand by my comment that the wobbling is silly. But I liked the four-armed monster.

Even if you optimize it heavily with focused bullet streams and lag control, I think there are plenty of possibilities to fool around and create art. I stand by my comment that the wobbling is silly. But I liked the four-armed monster.

Therein lies the problem. Focused bullet streams from both characters cause lag. How do i get around this little pickle?

It's likely not get-aroundable. You'll have to do what everyone else does; try a few different approaches (minimizing lag, maximizing stream, or a bit of both) for every scenario and pick the fastest one. Probably it will be very difficult since you have two characters, and thus more possibilities than we usually have.

Contra (U) [!].fcm? Is that the best available rom?

to the best of my knowledge, thats the rom genisto used. [!] means verified good dump (U) means USA no translation, no PRG, no vX.X seems like the best choice to me. also, Contra (U) [!].fcm isn't the rom.

k. these 2 levels have taken me 6 hours to beat. i played the entire thing at 1% speed to ensure i fire EVERY frame im able to. if this isnt good enough, then i am physically not able to do it at all. http://www.geocities.com/krieg747/Contra.zip worth continuing?

Rather than play at 1% speed, why not just use frame advance? It is more precise and will probably be faster than just waiting for the system to catch up.

well, thats the thing. i pm'ed foda about this he told me to play using frame advance at 50% or 100% speed the only way i can get frame advance to work is to pause the emulation, and then press the frame advance button. i tried playing with that, and i fire immensely slower than at 1% speed. im going to be completely honest here: if i have to scrap what ive done so far, im not going to start over. its just not worth it. im sorry. this is the best that I can do.

> the only way i can get frame advance to work is to pause > the emulation, and then press the frame advance button. That's right so far. > i tried playing with that, and i fire immensely slower than at 1% speed. Then you didn't do it right. Hold B. Press frame advance once. Release B. Press frame advance once. Hold B. Press frame advance once. Release B. Press frame advance once. Hold B. Press frame advance once. Release B. Press frame advance once. Etc. That way, you have precise control over the fire. Naturally, you only will hold B on the frames you actually want to shoot. And naturally, if you hold B at two consequent frames, it's as if you press it only once, for the duration of two frames. With frame advance, you have precise - perfect - control over what happens at every frame. Without frame advance, you need to rely on your reflexes and luck. It is simply not possible to be slower with frame advance, because you have as precise control as it is ever possible. However, you may need to realize that the game actually doesn't react at the same frame you press the button. It will usually register the button at frame #n, and start the action at frame #n+1. This is regardless what kind of input method you use. Perhaps, with frame advance, you just realize it what you didn't realize before, because of increased precision.

It's looking tight as hell. :) I think what Zurreco meant is not the resulting movie will be faster if you play with frame advance, just that making it will be. But I'm no mindreader so I could be wrong. If you need more help with understanding frame advance, just ask. It's really a great tool, both for exactness and for cutting down the time it takes to record the movie.

first of all. im SO GLAD the site is working again. ive completed more of my remake. tell me whatcha think base lvl 4 is taking FOR EV ER. hooooooly crappppp http://www.geocities.com/krieg747/Contra.zip also, thanks bunches for explaining frame advance for me.

first of all. im SO GLAD the site is working again. ive completed more of my remake. tell me whatcha think base lvl 4 is taking FOR EV ER. hooooooly crappppp http://www.geocities.com/krieg747/Contra.zip also, thanks bunches for explaining frame advance for me.

So far so good, can't wait to see the finished run.