Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1361)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
So, for testing reasons, the mandatory waiting time before judging a submission was accidentally brought from 3 days to just 1 hour, and after judging a submission in the record time of little more than 3 hour, a discussion spawned about what should be a proper waiting time. So, please put your vote to this poll and explain your reasoning with a comment.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Editor, Skilled player (1441)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2113
It's worth remembering that earlier, there was no minimum time for judging. It was only introduced after there were controversial judgements that were made immediately after a movie was submitted. Here's the thread where the minimum time was introduced. Fundamentally, I don't really see what changed between then and now. Personally, I don't really lean too heavily one way or the other. On the one hand, we should be able to trust judges to take as long as they need to make a proper judgement call about a submission. On the other hand, it's not like the current three day delay really causes any problems in my eyes. I could really go either way. Edit: After a bit of deliberation, I cast my vote behind keeping it as 3 days. I've not really heard many compelling arguments for removing the limit entirely, but several quite good reasons as to why there should be one. The question then only is where to set the limit. Since like I said, I don't think there really was any problem with the old limit, I think it should just be kept as is. Don't fix what isn't broke.
Rm
He/Him
Joined: 8/25/2020
Posts: 21
I guess a week or a few as long as a submission will be judged.
I’m the 11025th TASVideos User!
Bigbass
He/Him
Moderator
Joined: 2/2/2021
Posts: 194
Location: Midwest
I voted 2 days, although 3 days I think is equally sufficient. Except in uncommon cases where the submission is blatantly sub-optimal or has some other issue that makes it obviously unacceptable, the community should be given ample time to offer their opinion of any given submission. I think it's reasonable to say that most people probably are not reviewing new submissions on a daily basis (people have jobs, family, etc). That said, sometimes I have caught myself, through the excitement over a particular submission, realizing that I still had to wait another day or two before judging could happen. So perhaps 3 days is a bit too long, but otherwise I think it should be at least 1 day. I don't question the reliability or thoroughness of the judges, but having this buffer period I think also offers a reminder to both judges and viewers that there's no need to rush. Judges can take their time in judging. While viewers can likewise take their time when commenting and voting on the submission. If viewers think that judgement may come too quickly, I fear they may rush their own viewing of the movie (even if just subconsciously).
TAS Verifications | Mastodon | Github | Discord: @bigbass
Editor, Skilled player (1348)
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
It's important to give the community the time to give some input on the the movie's entertainment value, look for improvements and suboptimalities, discuss how well it fits the rules, etc. Before the judgment takes place. Of course the judge will also evaluate all of those things, but the process works better if the community is also involved. So I think 3 days are fine.
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVoUfT49xN9TU-gDMHv57sw Projects: SMW 96 exit. SDW any%, with Amaraticando. SMA2 SMW small only Kaizo Mario World 3
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1361)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
I agree that we should trust judges, but on the other hand we can't expect trust from the whole community. For that reason, the waiting time can help to avoid creating doubts, and more importantly, it gives more dignity to the submissions, as both accepting or rejecting too fast may make it look like the judge didn't care, one way or another. Also, in my opinion, the waiting time gives more room for the community to share their opinion about the fate of the submission. Giving a verdict too soon may create the idea that the opinion of the community doesn't matter for shaping the rules or pointing out possible judging mistakes (which may happen even to the best human, eventually). The fact that a judgement can be changed after being delivered isn't enough to shake off this impression completely, or for everyone. Another important reason in my opinion, is giving a reasonable amount of time for the author and the community to provide movie improvements. I don't see reasons why waiting can be bad, and I see only benefits for it, so my vote is 7 days. I'm aware that it's a bit extreme, and I don't expect many people to feel the same.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Mizumaririn
Other
Player (243)
Joined: 2/26/2020
Posts: 44
Location: Super Bell Hill
7 days 1. Time for viewers to give feedback 2. A judge should not be urged to judge. Require judging instantly can make judges overwhelmed by the work. Giving many days to judges can give them a clear mind.
pronouns: Mizu/Mizu
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
I think that 3 days is a good balance between too short and too long a time. That gives people the opportunity to see new runs and provide input without feeling hurried.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2221)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1091
Location: US
I threw my vote in for 7 days. While I believe our judges are perfectly capable of making an appropriate judgement in less time, I also see no necessary reason for rapid judgements. Even runs with blatantly obvious suboptimal play don't NEED rejected rapidly; waiting a longer period before declaring judgement on these type runs won't hurt, nor will it change the ultimate outcome. Runs ready to be rejected before the 3 day period rarely 'clog up' the workbench to a problematic degree; I can't imagine extending the time to 7 days would amplify this into a greater problem. Given that our judges can claim submissions for judgment even before the judgment delay period has passed (and thus already begin their judging process itself), a week delay gives the community a bit more time to evaluate and offer perspectives. As has been mentioned already, many of us are busy with other daily life stuff (work, family, etc.). Offering a bit more time for community participation would likely be appreciated by those members who are not able to be as consistently engaged/connected as others who can be on more frequently. The only time i can imagine a week delay being a huge issue is if a known improvement run is submitted near the end of the year, and the author (or even judges) are hoping to have it published before the year end. In this hypothetical rare case, i feel an exception to the delay timeframe could be considered on a case-by-case basis.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
It's important to remember that when assessing quality of a judgment, time is a useless metric. If you are being properly thorough, and preparing and delivering a judgment takes you 9 non-stop hours in total, it doesn't matter if you do it all in one go or distribute across several months. It's not like the 72 judging timeout means you should spend exactly 72 hours on your judging work. If you're spending this many hours on judgment work, I'm actually worried about you! You don't have to overwork that hard just to keep things going! We're wannabe perfectionists here, but if you're this focused on a movie, you might as well make your own submission instead. Generally, it doesn't have to be so complicated that it needs insane amount of research. If the situation is so counter-intuitive, then the decision will also feel way too weird, and the community may not approve. Let alone the time it will take you to recover. And of course one can deliver a rushed judgment even after several months. It's really easy, just ignore everything. And if the community is upset and disappointed as a result, congratulations, neither grace period is enough for you! So yes, first and foremost, the key point here is the very culture of judging. 3 days won't guarantee the judgment is good. 1 hour won't guarantee the judgment is bad. What is important is taking due time on your own research, while hearing people out and addressing their concerns. And there are a few things to say about audience feedback in general. The tier system meant that for every single judgment we need to ask people to provide feedback on how entertained they are, to properly determine the tier. We can use votes and ratings of previous submissions, or of similar games, but feedback could still change over the years drastically while the movie is nearly the same. And there was a problem of people only giving positive feedback in the thread, and then only negative feedback in publication ratings. And also a problem of kinda wearing off, because a lot of submissions would sit there with little to no feedback and you have to repeatedly ask people to vote just to determine the tier. And then they don't have enough energy to participate in talks regarding site policies where community is meant to have a huge say. So the tier system was a lot of fun. The class system greatly reduces hard dependency on viewer feedback for whatever is acceptable to Standard, because let's be real, the feedback focused system was unsustainable. And we're not rejecting more, we're accepting more, so people must be happy that we don't explicitly need as much feedback anymore. But it's still important not to make people worry: "Hey so we don't matter anymore?". Even tho the overall trend feels like less people care about posting in submission threads lately (and I don't have the stats data over the years), it's still in our control if we want this trend to continue, or we want to encourage more people to participate somehow. Giving everyone who's not instantly around, an opportunity to share their opinion and be heard, is important on the long run. It's how you deserve people's trust. And there are also viewer's expectations that we're meant to meet with our decisions. My own feeling of when enough time was given for feedback is usually several weeks, of course granted people are actually posting! But does this mean we want the grace period to be several weeks just to make sure the judges remember to give people time? I don't think so. It shouldn't even depend on time at all. It should depend on experience and instinct, instructions and training, basically culture. And that in turn means, that we shouldn't be too hard on judges if they make a mistake. We should be helpful and nice, so they don't get overwhelmed either, because that job is too important to let people burn out. It's not like the site is collapsing and nothing can be helped even if a wrong decision goes through. We want it to be a learning curve, so we want to be encouraging and motivating. In the end, the judgment timeout is about the human factor. It's about giving people freedom to participate even if they don't want to do it. It's about acknowledging that even after several months on the bench there may appear some revolutionary post that flips everything upside down. It's about realizing that we can't be waiting for it every time, because most of the time it doesn't happen. There are no guarantees, and there should be no punishment. If somebody is being repeatedly disappointing, we invest effort in trying to help that person fix the flaws. But if there's no damage caused, it's not a big deal. So we should stay balanced. I haven't voted.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
I'd say this is not about time per se, but about giving the community a chance to respond. It is possible that some community member has crucial input, or facts that the judges are not aware of, that may impact whether or not a run is acceptable. It strikes me as rare, but given that (as a principle) runs are never unpublished, I don't think it hurts to keep threads on the workbench open a minimum of three days.