This topic is for the purpose of discussing #8151: adelikat & Spikestuff's NES Donkey Kong: Original Edition in 01:25.67

Ok, people. I need some feedback. An "any%" run of this game has previously been submitted and rejected due to the game version. To put it as succinctly as possible: though some considered Original Edition to be a separate game and desired publication along side basic NES Donkey Kong, the ultimate judgement was to not accept Original Edition for its own "any%" run due to the extra stage content increasing the overall time, and to just leave NES Donkey Kong as the "any%" run of the game. That judgment also deemed that an "all items" run should use Original Edition over NES Donkey Kong as it showed getting more items due to the additional stage. So in effect, the decision meant that the site (at least at that time) was going to consider both games as different versions of the same game and not allow side-by-side publications. I'm asking for thoughts on revising this position. FWIW, the discussion at the time centered around 2 things: 1) if the games were separate or not and 2) authorship. For my personal opinion, with the recent loosening of rules as well as changes from a tier based to a class based publication system, I feel that the additional stage in Original Edition offers enough different content to warrant publishing both "any%" and "all items" of both games along side each other even though all other stages are (or nearly are) identical time wise. That said, if the general consensus is to only keep one of these games for each branch, I'd suggest Original Edition for both "any%" and "all items" in order to show the more 'complete' version of the game. TL:DR I think we should publish both NES Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong: Original Edition along side each other, but am looking for feedback from the community before making a final judgement on this submission. This submission is otherwise acceptable from an optimization standpoint.

My two cents: these ARE and should be considered two different games.

If the same tricks work in both versions, I think having the more complete one is enough (especially if optimal input in the same levels is identical). If there are differences, having both versions means someone will be interested in TASing the shorter one to see how much quicker it gets, and therefore it makes sense to have it. But if you can automatically know how long the quicker one is by simply subtracting a constant value, or copying inputs and then cutting out one level, I'm not sure what value it has, and for whom.

If the same tricks work in both versions, I think having the more complete one is enough (especially if optimal input in the same levels is identical). If there are differences, having both versions means someone will be interested in TASing the shorter one to see how much quicker it gets, and therefore it makes sense to have it. But if you can automatically know how long the quicker one is by simply subtracting a constant value, or copying inputs and then cutting out one level, I'm not sure what value it has, and for whom.

I don't know if I buy the argument that an identical game with more material should supersede the original one. I'll use an imaginary case: "Nintendo launches NES SMB Deluxe in a bundle with a new game to promote sales. The Deluxe version is exactly the same as the original, but contains two more world after the last one -- where you rescue the Princess lost jewels or something." If we used the superset approach, we should adopt the Deluxe version as the main game, converting the current any% into a subcategory lke originalAny%. Here are my my counter-arguments to that: * Pedigree: Even if the new game is a superset of the first one, it does not carry the same history and nostalgia as the original. Gamers will associate the old one to their memories and emotions and will probably reject as extraneous a game that is longer -- in the same way I reject some self-proclaimed sequels for many series and movies. NES SMB any% carries so much more weight than anything that could be deemed NES SMB Deluxe Version OriginalAny%. * Backward References: NES SMB any% is the way the most popular category is called. It may become confusing if years and years of using this name would now refer to a different game and different category. * Multiple Supersets: This is purely mathematical argument, but infinite supersets may exist of any set s != U. Nintendo may choose to release yet another Deluxe version with different worlds. Now we would have to discuss to which deluxe version does the original SMB belong to?

I'm for having both considered separate games.

I believe these should be two different games. The basis for my argument is that it causes a console verification to desync if you use the wrong one... :) Joking aside, there's clearly different content in one of them, and while my various escapades with Joust were problematic I don't think this one should be.