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A Pokemon Emerald Professor Oak Living Dex Challenge TAS.
As this TAS is >10 hours long and YouTube has a max video length of 10h, part 2 is available here

Game Info

  • Emulator used: BizHawk 2.9
  • 14:23:26.49
  • Rerecord Count: 202,828
  • Set the initial time to 1/1/2010 12:00 AM (although, I don't think this matters)

Comments

A Professor Oak challenge is where you have to catch every available Pokemon, including evolutions, before each gym. A living dex version is where you need to have 1 of every Pokemon.
The main RNG abuse used is pickup abuse. Pickup is an ability of a couple of Pokemon that gives a random item after every battle. One of the items you can get is a rare candy, an item that boosts the level of a Pokemon by a level. I need a lot of rare candies during the run. More information (and other technical information) is available here https://drkspace.github.io/Oak-Challenge/oak/emerald/research.html .
A small commentary video is available here
I think this TAS is 10 minutes (~1%) slower than the limit. Most of the time savings are probably from being more careful during grinding (the bot I made that does grinding for me does not avoid critical hits).

Samsara: Claiming for judging.
Samsara: Dropping due to personal life events preventing me from being able to judge anything with a clear mind.

ikuyo: Claiming for judging.

Prof. ikuyo: Hello drkspace, and welcome to TASVideos!
Before I get into the decision itself, I just want to congratulate you on this work. A movie with such an unique goal and with so many moving parts being even finished is an impressive task in itself. The commentated version and the notes were very useful for me to appreciate the technical elements of the movie, especially smaller details that escape me despite having some decent knowledge of Gen 3 Pokemon. Optimization is a tricky one for this movie. Some elements of it look sub-optimal to the untrained eye, and I'm fairly certain it can be majorly improved. But due to both the nature of the goal and the high RNG variance of the game, I think any major improvement on it will take significant work with progressively diminishing returns. As such, I think the movie's optimization work is more than acceptable.
Now, onto the decision itself, I need to give some context.
As of the writing of this judgement, there are two and a half publication classes on TASVideos: Standard, Alternative and Playground. Yes, two and a half. I will explain. Standard and Alternative were created from the foundation of Vault and Moons/Stars that the site first had. The main distinction between them, in concept, was goal choice. Common goals (beat the game, full completion, new game plus, etc) were allowed for Standard with no caveats. More esoteric goals (No jumping, extra difficulty modes, playarounds and showcases) would sit in Alternative. However, in doing so, we kept one requirement from all the way back: Alt runs needed to be entertaining.
Professor Oak's Challenge is a niche challenge created by some Pokemon fans, and part of its appeal is to be extremely time consuming. It is, in effect, a maximally inefficient Catch'em all. A lot of the difficulty comes form intense planning in order to make the grind as efficient as possible. In turn, this means that a tool-assisted movie aiming for this goal requires even more careful planing, and abuse of as many mechanics as possible (such as the Pickup ability) as well as efficient multitasking and use of time.
But this doesn't make for a very entertaining watch.
The main reason we held off of judging this movie for as long as we did was to evaluate the entertainment requirement for Alternative runs. After all, basically any kind of esoteric goal in a Pokemon game looks rather boring on an encode for those not in the loop or is trivially equivalent to a regular one (a Nuzlocke, the most well known Pokemon challenge run, devolves into essentially a regular run in the context of a tool assisted movie). If your average strange goal move for this game is like this, then under the current rule set, no esoteric goal for a Pokemon game can even be published on the site.
And we think that's a shame. So we are fixing it.
I am glad to announce that we are accepting this movie to Alternative.
With the acceptance of this movie, TASVideos's judges have come to rule that entertainment is no longer a consideration when it comes to goal choice for movies in the site. While we will keep encouraging and celebrating entertainment in TAS work, we understand that entertainment is highly subjective and depends on our knowledge, preferences and biases. This movie, however you feel about it, is a technically impressive piece of work that fully deserves the same recognition as any other Gen 3 Pokemon run we have published, and denying it that publication just because it is not understood as entertaining in the same way a more traditionally entertaining movie would be is wrong.
Now, those who follow developments of the site know that we attempted another fix for this, the Playground. This is the "half-category" I mentioned a while back. Playground movies were essentially movies that aimed for an Alternative goal and were technically sound, but did not meet our entertainment requirement or could not be published for any other reasons. We thought this would fix the problem of entertainment, but we've come to realize this was just recreating the same problem somewhere else. We want to acknowledge this mistake and correct it.
As such, as part of this process, we'll be looking to eliminate the entertainment barriers to publication, which would migrate many current PG runs over to Alt class publication. There are some details of this decision that we want to discuss with the community (such as Individual Level movies, as they could be put on Playground but don't currently fit our rules), but in the short term, we plan to make sure that all full game movies that have been sent to Playground make it into Alternative as full fledged publications. We've started this discussion already in our Discord server, and a formal announcement will be done soon after I've posted this decision.
Thank you drkspace, and everyone, for helping us make TASVideos better.

Spikestuff: Processing...


TASVideoAgent
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isn't the cloning glitch useful? from what i recall it's faster to catch pokemon than it is to evolve, so i dont get why you have so many multiples of some of them,you could catch a wingull later... this opmitzation happens a lot in the r2 frlg tas as an example. the more i watch the less i like it, why didn't u just speedrun the game and cloned rare candies, i'm either clearly missing something or you didn't do any additional research
TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
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KusogeMan wrote:
isn't the cloning glitch useful? from what i recall it's faster to catch pokemon than it is to evolve, so i dont get why you have so many multiples of some of them,you could catch a wingull later... this opmitzation happens a lot in the r2 frlg tas as an example. the more i watch the less i like it, why didn't u just speedrun the game and cloned rare candies, i'm either clearly missing something or you didn't do any additional research
They wanted it glitchless. The fact it's glitchless + need to catch and obtain 1 of every Pokemon before a gym kinda makes it very boring.
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KusogeMan wrote:
isn't the cloning glitch useful? from what i recall it's faster to catch pokemon than it is to evolve, so i dont get why you have so many multiples of some of them,you could catch a wingull later... this opmitzation happens a lot in the r2 frlg tas as an example. the more i watch the less i like it, why didn't u just speedrun the game and cloned rare candies, i'm either clearly missing something or you didn't do any additional research
To be fair, if they allow glitches, they would have to have a constrained allowance of glitches (i.e. only allow the Battle Tower Duplication Glitch) to prevent the pomeg berry from making things even more boring. With the pomeg berry and all the fun that entails you can just outright complete the dex entirely, by just constantly corrupting to get eggs which hatch into the Pokemon you need. Which is even worse with Professor Oak Challenge rules, which would make it so once the 4th gym is complete you have to obtain the entire rest of the dex right then and now and can't complete the 5th gym until you do so. Not to mention glitches which can allow for skipping gyms kind of makes the challenge itself somewhat moot, if the requirement of not completing a gym can be cheesed with glitches to outright skip gyms. Also, not sure if you just didn't read the description, but they can't just speedrun the game and clone Rare Candies, if not just due to wanting to be glitchless, but that not work as well as you might think due to the "Professor Oak Challenge" rules, which stipulate that you must obtain all the dex entries for Pokemon before you complete the next gym. So the Battle Tower Duplication Glitch can only be effective against Pokemon which are only obtainable after the 8th gym (or is it only Pokemon which are only obtainable after E4/Champion, is E4/Champion considered a "gym" under the Professor Oak Challenge? I don't know, still doesn't change the point). To be fair again however, not reading the description would be somewhat proof of the esoteric nature of the goal presented here (although you still missed the "Glitchless" part of the goal here). "Professor Oak Challenge" makes no sense for anyone who doesn't know the series, as "Professor Oak" is just the professor in Kanto region, who is never even mentioned in Emerald, so it requires knowledge of the game series itself. Not to mention "Professor Oak" as a character doesn't even have this kind of challenge, it's a fan created challenge. Professor Oak in the Kanto games just gave you the Pokedex and wanted you to complete it, but not with any of the restrictions placed in with by the fan created challenge (the fan created nature of the challenge could be seen as a parallel to a Nuzlocke challenge). To complicate this even further, this TAS places an additional challenge on top of the Professor Oak challenge. A "Living Dex" stiuplates that you need a member of every single species, evolved, mid-stage evolution, and unevolved, in your party/boxes/breeding house. Also by that, it is somewhat an independent challenge which has to be accomplished alongside the Professor Oak Challenge (i.e. you can very well do a Living Dex without Professor Oak Challenge or do the Professor Oak Challenge without a Living Dex requirement). Although this TAS, I assume, would tie them together as to mean the Professor Oak Living Dex Challenge needs to complete the Living Dex as much as possible before each gym. Ultimately however, "Living Dex" does make some sense if you know the game a little (Dex is short for Pokedex, the thing that tracks all Pokemon seen/caught, and Living means that you have each Pokemon Living in your party/boxes/breeding house), but still it is a fan created term here and not entirely clear to someone who doesn't have knowledge of what it means exactly (granted, the fact it makes sense with some knowledge means it's not too esoteric here). Considering too the kind of boringness that this TAS has, that at least has been seen so far in responses, it's probable too that this TAS might not be publishable per se, and would just go to Playground.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Considering too the kind of boringness that this TAS has, that at least has been seen so far in responses, it's probable too that this TAS might not be publishable per se, and would just go to Playground.
And with how "boring" this run is (I'm not saying that sarcastically, you have to skip over the grinding sections while watching) imagine a few hours of just menuing to get a complete living dex (and that would include every gen I-III mon) and then just doing a regular playthrough. I would also think any 14h+ run would be boring (the longest TAS here is [3386] PSX TOCA Touring Car Championship "max points" by Noxxa in 10:30:25.84). The most interesting thing about this run to me is the pickup abuse. Maybe a more "exciting" run would be the challenge in Ruby/Saphire since pickup doesn't depend on levels, so you don't need to initially grind up a zigzagoon to level 21 before you start collecting rare candies. I think that run could easily be sub 10 hours, maybe even sub 9. Personally (completely biased), I think it should be published since it'll be the longest TAS by a wide margin.
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drkspace wrote:
Personally (completely biased), I think it should be published since it'll be the longest TAS by a wide margin.
You probably missed the Desert Bus maximum score submission undergoing publication, which is over 33 days (so your submission would be a solid 2nd place if published). Regardless, the issue I point out is due to the goal of this movie. It is not a "Standard" class goal. Standard goals do not have to worry about entertainment in order to be published, if you do a TAS and it is with a standard goal it will be published (assuming the game is publishable in the first place, which official non-AO games will always meet, and the TAS is optimal/beats all records/etc). If you do a TAS and it does not have a Standard goal, it will be judged under the "Alternative" class. These don't have the goal restrictions that Standard has, but the TAS must be deemed "entertaining" by the audience. The esoteric nature of this submission's goal also hurts it due to this Alternative class guideline:
Your goal choice should be clearly defined and sensible, especially to those who do not know your chosen game. Assume that the audience is seeing the game for the first time.
When the goal is not Standard, and the run is not entertaining by our community, it falls under our "Playground" class. This class doesn't actually entail any publication, in its current form it's just left as a submission which has a flag indicating it's in the Playground.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Your goal choice should be clearly defined and sensible, especially to those who do not know your chosen game. Assume that the audience is seeing the game for the first time.
not sure I entirely like the last sentence of this guideline. Like the first part is decent advice but sometimes goals just won't really mean as much to somebody who hasn't played the game and I think that's ok.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Chamale
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I'm the original creator of the Professor Oak Challenge. This is a very impressive technical achievement, and a significant improvement over your first TAS of this category. In my opinion, this goal choice is not ideal for a TAS because of the large amount of level grinding in the early game. The "Co-op Diploma" category would be faster and more entertaining, with a clearer goal choice to the casual viewer. I think Gabraltar has looked into doing that for Ruby/Sapphire, but I don't know if he's actually started on it. Anyway, I still found this TAS very interesting. I especially enjoyed the use of Linoone as a main battler, and the optimized Berry Blender to evolve Feebas. I support putting this in the Playground.
TiKevin83
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I agree with the playground distinction for this run. It's a unique technical accomplishment, but the goal choice is not ideal for entertainment value and doesn't match well with existing precedent. A "maximum dex in this game" TAS aka "Emerald 213" would match a longstanding RTA category and have a good entertainment value, personally for me closer to 7/10. Likewise with Coop Diploma we have existing gen 1 and gen 2 TASes and I could see that as a 7/10. Living dex I would drop to 5/10 because of the repeat catches needed and Professor Oak's Challenge I would drop to a 3 or 4 because of the very repetitive grinding. Doing both together is a tad more interesting at a 4 or 5 for me.
CoolHandMike
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While I have not checked the pokemon acquired count at each point for the gyms, the final pokemon counts seems good to me. This run does sync to the end even on Bizhawk 2.9.1. EDIT: On double checking some sections and it was pointed out to me that a couple spots I thought was bad were in fact just rare candy farming. Some of those sections just have bad luck. Checking the Mauville gym fight looks like rng manips should have been used but were not for example, but not sure maybe the author could explain? There are some frames at the end of the movie that could also be truncated.
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CoolHandMike wrote:
Checking the Mauville gym fight looks like rng manips should have been used but were not for example, but not sure maybe the author could explain? There are some frames at the end of the movie that could also be truncated.
There was RNG manipulation in the mauville fight (and I'm guessing specifically the magneton). If I'm remembering correctly, the linoone would have needed 2 crits to take out the magneton and magneton always goes for thunder wave if you're faster. I'm probably found that using the x attack was faster than finding the 2 crit frames. There is certainly time lost compared to the theoretical "perfect run", especially if someone spent the time guaranteeing no crits while farming rare candies.