Editor, Expert player (2384)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3942
Location: Germany
Since I found out about a "press simultaneous button" crash glitch in the main menu in Legacy of Goku I, I thought I might try it in this game. I didn't find anything except: This is only a graphical bug that happens when pressing Start+B or A+B at the file select. But it suggests the game may have other menus vulnerable to this.. - A similar graphical glitch like above happens when selecting Credits from ingame pause menu (press A+B). - I have found that if you awake from sleep mode then the game continues but may give a lag frame every half second as opposed to no lag frames at all. This happens only sometimes. This keeps going even through pause screens. I don't understand why this happens... - If you highlight Credits in the ingame pause menu and press (up+A), the game seems to attempt to show the credits but immediately cancels out. Then, none of the menu options is highlighted. You can press down once, or up 5 times to highlight something again. Nothing seems to happen when trying to select out of bounds option. I ended up being unable to unpause the game when testing with that bug. Also, pressing left or right when nothing is highlighted didn't give the "buuh" sound... Not sure how that happened to me but nothing special seemed to happen then either.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Things I know of: - You don't always want to power up, as sometimes when you do, you move slower. Even if the game says to power up, you often want to ignore it. - You can kill Cell with Goku's bomb attack if you charge it up with multiple beans.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
I've been working on a WIP Testrun of this game with one of my friends and finally decided to upload our WIP. Link to video Be sure the read the description of the video, it has various comments/notes and the VBM. Also if anyone could help me with finding the coordinates and RNG addresses it would help immensely. Thanks :)
Editor, Expert player (2384)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3942
Location: Germany
I will watch your video. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1009141117/DBZ2.vbm VBA19-23 This is a WIP I made in 2010 but I didn't get very far. I think there are some possible improvements e.g. if Trunks didn't shoot before flying to the next map to chase Gohan, you might save a few frames. And I ran right of the stump, you ran left of it (which I think may be slower). But those are only nitpicks. I'm glad you made a long WIP. I only now see you mentioned "Testrun".
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
MUGG wrote:
I will watch your video. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1009141117/DBZ2.vbm VBA19-23 This is a WIP I made in 2010 but I didn't get very far. I think there are some possible improvements e.g. if Trunks didn't shoot before flying to the next map to chase Gohan, you might save a few frames. And I ran right of the stump, you ran left of it (which I think may be slower). But those are only nitpicks. I'm glad you made a long WIP. I only now see you mentioned "Testrun".
Comparing your WIP to ours, we were 30 frames slower so far. The ki blast before flying didn't waste any time but I made a quick TAS fixing the flight pad and your suggestion about the tree stump and saved 3/13 frames respectively. I added that to the notable improvements. Thanks :)
Joined: 12/4/2013
Posts: 2
I'd be interested in collaborating if you're still working on the run. I just really suck at reverse engineering RNG, unfortunately, and it's the main thing that the tas needs to destroy the game. It's definitely worth it to get max strength boosts and manipulate starting stats (as those are random except for Gohan's stats; future Trunks stats have no effect on him later in the game from the tutorial areas). Also there's a European version or something that has objectively better sprites (uses the same as JP version) Quick Edit: Thought I'd mention this but if you press start on the first frame of gameplay in the tutorial area right before Gohan's text boxes appear you can softlock or crash the game by scrolling through menus. Also you get to see weird stats on characters you don't have yet.
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Champloo wrote:
I'd be interested in collaborating if you're still working on the run. I just really suck at reverse engineering RNG, unfortunately, and it's the main thing that the tas needs to destroy the game. It's definitely worth it to get max strength boosts and manipulate starting stats (as those are random except for Gohan's stats; future Trunks stats have no effect on him later in the game from the tutorial areas). Also there's a European version or something that has objectively better sprites (uses the same as JP version) Quick Edit: Thought I'd mention this but if you press start on the first frame of gameplay in the tutorial area right before Gohan's text boxes appear you can softlock or crash the game by scrolling through menus. Also you get to see weird stats on characters you don't have yet.
I'm down for any help I can get in case I run out of motivation again. idk how TASers do it lol. I recently picked this back up after the RTA community reached out to me. I finished up to the dinosaur eggs part but I'm not happy with the 3rd one. Here's the 2 short WIPs of those sections which I forgot to share on here. Link to video Link to video EDIT: I believe I found addresses related to RNG but I also don't have any idea on how to reverse engineer them. 03003890-03003897 They seem to change based on various actions including inputs, and other things like when the screen shakes. Pausing and when an enemy is really close to you they change every frame. I forgot to respond to this part before but I chose the US version simply because it was what I had. I haven't bothered looking to see if there are any differences between the PAL/JP version but I've been told the US version is the slowest lol.
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
A small update since it's been a while. Amphorce has started helping me again with this TAS and we've made a decent amount of progress. Also to point out with this particular strat we plan on skipping Gohan's charge attack to stay as Trunk for his faster Super Saiyan movement. It doesn't take very long to get but we have no idea whether it will matter and we can't test until WAY later in the run. I mention this because the RTA gets it. EDIT: Finished up the grinding. I deleted the stuff about strats from the post since the next day I immediately realized one was way better so it didn't matter anymore. Link to video
Editor, Expert player (2384)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3942
Location: Germany
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
We knew about that and may or may not have used it already ;) Also for an update we literally haven't touched this in 2 months because of more grinding that's even worse because Piccolo does like no damage. It was only the other day we decided we we're gonna try to pick it up. It still would be super useful to understand RNG cause he's already getting bad level ups (no strength)
Editor, Expert player (2384)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3942
Location: Germany
Link to video The bug doesn't seem to work in the Japanese version because of how it handles errors. It will bring up one of its error screens instead of glitching up. Link to video
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Finally got the full TAS uploaded! Thanks to Mugg for encoding it and Amphorce for uploading it for me. We plan on doing a post commentary at some point too. Link to video
Experienced player (871)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1830
Location: Brasil
this game is that much bigger than the first one?
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Experienced player (741)
Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2265
Location: Guatemala
Experienced player (871)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1830
Location: Brasil
do you think it gets sent here?
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Editor, Expert player (2384)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3942
Location: Germany
Very nice, I didn't expect a new TAS of this game. I like the text commentary.
Former player
Joined: 8/31/2009
Posts: 242
TL;DR: Stats have stat experience which affects the stats of obtaining characters and level ups, Trunks's stats in the intro adds to his stats later in the game, and higher stat values are possible compared to what the TASes used. Inspired by ASDQ's TAS, I've been researching the RNG and character stats of this game and have found many interesting and exciting results to share! First as had already been shared by previous TASers, RNG in this game pulls from two different addresses: 3890 (4 bytes) and 3894 (4 bytes), and the formula for advancing RNG uses both values and then also updates both values. It can somewhat be thought of having 8 bytes worth of values for RNG, but I can't confirm if the stats use both of them, and it's also difficult to know if all 18.4 quintillion possibilities can naturally occur, or if the RNG would loop at some point, making some combinations impossible to reach. In any case, it's mega overkill for this game, but does make many potential results and research inconclusive until either the game is disassembled, the stat calculation is perfectly understood, or someone crazy brute forces all possibilities for every situation. I wrote up a bit of Lua scripting to rapidly roll different character stats both when first obtaining the character and when leveling, and ran it thousands of times. Some of the results also came out better than what ASDQ was able to achieve, which I'll go into more below. RNG doesn't advance all that much during normal play, and often running around and bumping into objects helps move it forward. My method was to use the pause menu which advances RNG every frame. I would pause just as a blast is about to hit an enemy that would give me a level-up, and then test every frame that I could unpause on. I used similar methods for obtaining new characters. It's worth noting that while there is a pop-up to show the increase to Strength, Power, and Endurance, HP and EP also are increased by random amounts, and also roll different values when first getting a character. These two can only be checked by manually going into the pause menu though. For an RTA run, good values for HP and EP are helpful, and for TASing, high EP values allow for extra blasts and longer Super Saiyan/Namek duration, making it valuable. I'm unsure if the previous TASers manipulated RNG to get good values for it, but there could be some potential time save with a better value. Next, stat values also have fractional amounts and are not just the displayed amounts. For example, Gohan's Strength as shown on the character screen is at address 0EA7 (1 byte), and the fractional amount is at 0EA6 (1 byte), which ranges from 0 to 255. An alternative way of viewing it is like a stat experience value, as once it reaches 256, it goes back to 0 and increases the actual stat by 1. This is why it sometimes seems like no matter what you do, one stat only goes up by 1, or even sometimes 0, while other stats seem to be able to increase by 2. In fact, you can increase a stat by 3 with one level-up if the stat experience is close to 255, and you get a large increase to that stat after. These also vary when first obtaining a character. This means that when obtaining a new character, 20 strength and 20 strength or +1 Power and +1 Power for two different RNG rolls are not necessarily equal if the stat experience value is higher. Tracking these for every stat for every character would be very helpful for RNG manipulation for a TAS. From what I can tell, capsules, hacking memory addresses where stats are, stat values in relation to other stat values, and other ideas have zero effect on how much you get on a level-up. My theory is that each level simply gives a random amount of stat experience to each stat, and once that amount goes over 255, it increases the corresponding stat by 1. How much of this is possible per level per character is a bit more difficult to test. I'm also curious if the way the game works when a new character is obtained is they are treated as a level 1 character and then instantly gained multiple levels to their starting level. Evidence for this is that all characters have very low stat values at the beginning of the game, that boost way up to what you normally see when obtaining the characters. For example, Piccolo's Strength when you boot up the game is 4, but when you first obtain him at level 10, it can vary from 11 to 18. As an aside, when hacking the level experience values in memory, the level is instantly auto-adjusted based on the experience formula, but it has no effect on stats immediately or at level-up. If you were to take a level 50 character and set their level down to 20 for example, they would continue as normal as a level 20 character, just that they would have very high stats, but continue to gain them in a normal matter. Hacking stat values to be over 100 seems to function as if they were that high, but once you get a level-up, they are forced down to 100 and capped there. Gohan at the beginning of the game at level 1 has no stat variance, including the stat experience. Going from level 1 to level 2 when defeating Frieza had the following ranges: HP: 89-91 (increase of 4-6) EP: 22-24 (increase of 2-4) Strength: 4-5 (increase of 1-2) Power: 6 (increase of 1) Endurance: 6 (increase of 1) However, the stat experience values all wildly ranged alongside these. In terms of the display values, it was possible to get everything maxed out, but even within different sets of those, there would be various stat experience values, so it's difficult to determine what is the absolute best possibility. As a test, I also hacked the Strength stat experience value to 255 and could get +3s when I would otherwise have got +2, which is supportive of these theories of how the game works. For many other level-ups before I had learned about the stat experience mechanic, what's interesting is that there didn't seem to be patterns in individual stats, but I saw many patterns in the sums of the stats, sometimes alternating two different numbers for hundreds of rolls in a row, and other types. I'm not sure if this is a result of how the RNG formula ends up affecting the stat calculation, or if it was a coincidence due to the particular stat experience values, but I did see this for many level-ups, suggesting it's the stat calculation. When already RNG manipulating to get critical hits, NPC actions, etc, specifically trying to get a good RNG roll for level-ups could cost more time than the extra stat increases would actually save, especially with the difficulty of even determining what the ideal roll would be. This creates a very wide open optimization problem for anyone who TASes this game in the future. TAS improvements would likely constantly be gaining and losing time in different areas, and it could be difficult to determine what the end result would be after some amount of optimization had already been achieved. For Piccolo, these are the stat ranges when first obtaining him: HP: 152-172 EP: 39-55 Strength: 11-18 Power: 12-19 Endurance: 12-19 TOTAL: 226-283 After over 16,000 rolls, the lowest and highest totals I obtained were 237 and 274, indicating that the limitations of the RNG and stat calculation formulas may mean most possibilities are not actually possible. I noticed this also with many level-ups of characters until I later realized the stat experience component. However, some of these Piccolos are still better than what the current TAS used. Some examples are 168/52/18/19/17 and 163/50/18/19/19. In particular with the second set, the Strength stat experience was high enough such that the next level-up could get +2 to 20, which ASDQ specifically said in his commentary he could not achieve and had to get 19, which is likely because his particular Piccolo with 18 Strength had low Strength stat experience and likely was just barely an 18. This is an excellent example of the importance of tracking stat experience. For Vegeta, he is obtained immediately after a cutscene which doesn't allow for RNG manipulation within it. It takes significantly more time to check a different RNG roll, so my sample for Vegeta was much smaller, and it's possible that even better results are still possible. For a TAS to complete the game though, there are many NPCs roaming around just before the cutscene, allowing for ease of RNG manipulation, just that actually checking the result is very time-consuming. HP: 272-310 EP: 64-81 Strength: 21-34 Power: 18-31 Endurance: 22-35 TOTAL: 397-491 Like Piccolo, the lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 416 and 474. ASDQ mentions that he went for a Vegeta with 32 Strength and 30 Power, as higher Strength rolls generally had lower Power rolls. However, I found some very good Vegeta sets such as 287/78/34/31/34. Even with taking some extra frames to manipulate a good Vegeta stat roll, he's used quite a lot in the run and I think there would be a lot of time save. For Trunks, the first important thing is that future Trunks in the opening of a new game has random stats as well, and the higher these are, the higher they will be when he becomes a playable character later in the game! RNG advances every frame before starting the game, so it's very easy to manipulate good rolls without losing too much time. Below are his stats in the beginning. HP: 142-154 EP: 30-40 Strength: 11-15 Power: 6-10 Endurance: 7-11 TOTAL: 196-230 As with other characters, the lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 203 and 224. The roll I went with was 150/37/15/10/11, and this is important to note because the rolls I obtained later in the game are dependent on these. I hadn't optimized for stat experience with this, so even higher stats may be possible when later obtaining Trunks. For obtaining Trunks, his stats are rolled as the cutscene with Kami ends, which is thankfully quite a bit earlier than when you gain control again. Note that it usually takes 2 frames instead of 1 to calculate his stats, so make sure to adjust any Lua scripting to check accordingly. HP: 502-582 EP: 90-111 Strength: 39-55 Power: 24-40 Endurance: 26-42 TOTAL: 681-830 The lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 714 and 805. Trunks has highly varying stats, and he's important for fast runs, so good RNG manipulation is likely worth it even if you have to wait a number of frames. ASDQ's TAS had 52 Strength, and having 55 instead, especially as those extra points carry for the rest of the game, would likely save a lot of time. Other stats also don't necessarily need to be sacrificed, and it may also be helpful to have extra Power and EP. Some good sets I found are 543/108/55/40/27, 521/102/55/40/27, and 555/110/55/27/32. For Goku, his stats are rolled when Dende activates the dragon. Manipulating these would be quite a bit harder to do, but they're also very important for a fast run after. HP: 728-874 EP: 111-134 Strength: 38-65 Power: 40-67 Endurance: 32-58 TOTAL: 990-1144 The lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 949 and 1198. ASDQ's TAS had found 65/49 Strength and Power, but used 63/65. The best set I found was 809/129/65/66/44, and there were a few more 65 Strengths with Power in the 60s, but I didn't find any 65/67 rolls. I wouldn't be surprised if some existed though, since it will likely be rare just by how much the stats vary in the first place. --- I hope this information is found useful for TASing this game, or even just playing it normally! There's still a lot more to be discovered and optimized for anyone who is interested in this. For future data collection, I would recommend setting all of a character's values to 0, including the stat experience, and then measuring what's possible in terms of stat experience, instead of just the on-screen values. This would be far more precise is analyzing what's possible as it would also be impacting the stats that could be gained after level-ups after.
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
This is really useful information! Thank you t3h_Icy! When we did the first TAS, we didn't manipulate anything beyond STR since we figured that was the most important lol. I did have someone else look at this game before and they found the exact ranges of stat experience you can get per level up. This was mostly just out of curiosity cause people always were curious what the highest/lowest rolls could be. It varies per character and I don't think it ever got posted before. Seeing now this doesn't have HP or EP either unfortunately but covers the other stats. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Eh_8vJUnt6Wfm4DLrspOJ_mxAJe5k0FgPtzNF0LUbM/edit?gid=0#gid=0 Surprisingly despite the amount of possibilities, we didn't waste hardly any time in our first TAS for it and there happened to be pretty good ones right near the start. I don't remember exactly what they all were off hand though haha. Not sure if ASDQ has any interest in doing another one or not. I actually had no idea it existed until like a month after it came out and the WR holder found it and posted it on discord.
Experienced player (741)
Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2265
Location: Guatemala
KusogeMan wrote:
do you think it gets sent here?
I actually asked the author about submitting this and they said that they won't submit this TAS, because they're planning to make some more improvements to it.
Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony
Former player
Joined: 8/31/2009
Posts: 242
bonecrusher1022 wrote:
This is really useful information! Thank you t3h_Icy! When we did the first TAS, we didn't manipulate anything beyond STR since we figured that was the most important lol. I did have someone else look at this game before and they found the exact ranges of stat experience you can get per level up. This was mostly just out of curiosity cause people always were curious what the highest/lowest rolls could be. It varies per character and I don't think it ever got posted before. Seeing now this doesn't have HP or EP either unfortunately but covers the other stats. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Eh_8vJUnt6Wfm4DLrspOJ_mxAJe5k0FgPtzNF0LUbM/edit?gid=0#gid=0 Surprisingly despite the amount of possibilities, we didn't waste hardly any time in our first TAS for it and there happened to be pretty good ones right near the start. I don't remember exactly what they all were off hand though haha. Not sure if ASDQ has any interest in doing another one or not. I actually had no idea it existed until like a month after it came out and the WR holder found it and posted it on discord.
Thanks for sharing that spreadsheet, very interesting! Do you happen to know if HP and EP use a stat experience function? I spent some time searching through memory addresses, but couldn't find anything for them. I'm curious if they simply don't use it, or if they're a function of the other stats.
Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
@dekutony where did you contact them at? I'd love to help out if they were interested :) @t3h_Icy I've got no idea sadly. Finding memory addresses and such was never a strong suit so when making the first TAS I'd just find the current boss and each characters stats and that was it lol. I do remember seeing the experience was right next to it in the hex editor so maybe the health/ep is the same?
Experienced player (741)
Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2265
Location: Guatemala
bonecrusher1022 wrote:
@dekutony where did you contact them at? I'd love to help out if they were interested :)
Oh I just made a comment on their YouTube video of their TAS. You can look at mine in the comment section.
Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony
Former player
Joined: 8/31/2009
Posts: 242
I spent some time researching how HP and EP works, and I believe I figured it out. Neither of them have a stat experience value like Strength, Power, and Endurance, but instead have a simple calculation per level up and the same for each character. For HP, the increase is a percentage of the current maximum HP, ranging from 5.49% to 7.49%, with an average of 6.49%. I tested this by poking the HP memory address before a level-up to 10,000 to see a nice spread. It seems like the result is uniformly distributed as well, both by skimming the counts of each possibility and that the average is exactly in the middle. Because HP increases based on the current maximum, the effect is compounding, giving much greater value to high increases at lower levels, and not mattering as much at higher levels. For a TAS however, HP is generally irrelevant. For EP, it is simply a uniform distribution of +2, +3, or +4. EP is a somewhat important stat as it allows for longer duration of Super Saiyan/Namek, and even without generally worrying about it running out, needing less manipulation for energy drops could help save frames. With better understanding of the RNG and stats now, I'll redo my sampling and see if I discover any more interesting results that could be helpful for a TAS.
Former player
Joined: 8/31/2009
Posts: 242
I ran a sample of over 80,000 for leveling up Gohan with tracking the stat experience and other details. Exactly one roll gave maxed out Strength stat experience, Power stat experience, and +4 EP altogether, and with each stat varying by 201 possible values, and then 1 in 3 for perfect EP, this seems about right. That said, unless extensive, perfect control of RNG becomes possible, there's no way it would ever be worth the time for this, and something much more modest at the cost of even just a few frames would be better. Ideally for a TAS, you would get enough stat experience such that you get your +1s and +2s for the stat, and perfect rolls are unnecessary. Getting +2 or +3 EP instead of +4 should also be fine. Furthermore, a "perfect" HP roll isn't necessary since many different rolls will give the same value since it's a percentage multiplier with no decimals. For example, +7.20% and +7.21% will likely yield the same value. @bonecrusher1022 I have a question about the spreadsheet you shared because I think there may be a mistake. For the 5 main character, the difference between the maximum and minimum stat experience rolls for each stat is 201, except for Trunks' Endurance, which your spreadsheet suggests is a difference 191. I'm pretty sure the maximum Endurance should be 0x17E instead of 0x174. Is the data on your spreadsheet from the US version of the game? I've also been sampling for the stats of Trunks in the intro. His level 1 stats for Strength, Power, and Endurance are 6, 3, and 4 respectively, or 1536, 768, and 1024 when considering them as 256 stat experience per point. Per level-up, he gains 287-487 Strength, 172-372 Power, and 182-382 Endurance. This would lead to hypothetical minimums and maximums of 2971/3971, 1628/2628, and 1934/2934. What's strange is that in just a sample of less than 1000, I've achieved all of these values. This suggests to me that setting stats for a new character uses different mechanics because the chance of absolute perfect or anti-perfect stats is basically zero. Furthermore, I've had 3975, 2632, and 2938 as maximums so far, which are all 4 points higher than what should be possible, while the minimums are matching. I'm thinking something in the calculation adds a tiny bit extra or something. The stat experience for the samples also has a wide spread of results, so it's not simply taking one roll and multiplying it by the number of levels, so I'm really curious with how the game handles obtaining new characters. My current guess is that it takes the minimum and maximum values per level, multiplies them by the number of levels, and then sets that as the range.
Former player
Joined: 8/31/2009
Posts: 242
For some results that are directly useful for a TAS, the following are some sets of stats you can get for Trunks in the intro, which carryover later when you obtain Trunks. This assumes frame perfect menuing and that text speed is set to fastest. Stats are in order of HP, EP, Strength stat experience, Power stat experience, and Endurance stat experience. Minimum values are 142/30/2971/1628/1934, and maximum values are 154/40/3975/2632/2938. I've also tested this on both the US and Japanese versions and got the same results. 0 frames, or starting the game immediately: 151/33/3323/1815/2101. This is what ASDQ's TAS uses and it notably loses 652 Strength stat experience, or over 2.5 entire stat points! It's also not very good for EP or Power either. A lot of time can be saved just from using a better set. Waiting 7 frames: 146/40/3931/2574/2738. This is a very large increase to Strength, Power, and EP; even Endurance too. Using this set would be a massive improvement. Waiting 27 frames: 149/33/3945/2570/2926. This set has 14 extra stat experience to Strength, which could possibly allow for obtaining an extra Strength point temporarily for a couple specific levels, depending on rolls. The difference of 1 extra point would also need to be the difference to killing an enemy in one fewer hit, which would justify waiting the extra 20 frames. More realistically, less need for RNG manipulation for future level-ups could be beneficial. Waiting 29 frames: 147/35/3963/2094/2216. This set has another 18 extra stat experience to Strength, and a touch extra EP compared to the previous set. Waiting 72 frames: 147/36/3971/2389/2024. This set has yet another 8 extra stat experience for Strength, 1 extra EP, and also extra Power stat experience if needed. Losing 1 second can likely be made up for if the extra stat experience is shown to be beneficial. Waiting 80 frames: 145/37/3973/1968/1950. This set has 2 extra stat experience for Strength, another extra EP, and is close to the maximum. Losing 12 frames is almost certainly fine. Waiting 214 frames: 150/37/3974/2608/2839. This set has just about perfect stat experience for Strength, the same EP, and extremely high Power as well. Even Endurance and HP are high. The long wait might be hard to justify for these benefits though, but if Power is used more in a TAS, it should be worth the loss at the start. Everything beyond this is too long of a wait to be justifiably more viable. --- In my opinion, if Power is desirable, waiting 214 frames gives an extremely good intro Trunks and the cost of about 3.5 seconds can likely be made up for, especially in a 100% TAS. If it can be demonstrated that Power is not needed for any case to save time, waiting 80 frames is likely the best option. Even if the extra Strength stat experience doesn't result in any extra stat points, needing less RNG manipulation for the rest of the run would still be a potential time save, and 12 frames compared to the next best option is very little time.

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