Joined: 5/21/2004
Posts: 16
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Secret of Mana was definitely my most favorite RPG of all time released on any console system.
That is of course if you don't count any Zelda game, in my opinion, only the second second Zelda could be considered a RPG.
I just never latched on to any Final Fantasy game and I never played chrono trigger.
Oh the good ol days with the multitap and three friends playing secret of mana, good times... good times.
I wonder how long a speed run would take... freaking forever I'm sure!
I thought about it....but its just too long :)
Maybe in the future when people REALLY have no lives. Even if a game takes more than like 25 or 30 minutes to complete it seems too long for a timeattack (doesn't stop us though).
I think they were talking about this RE chrono trigger, which some one is, incredibly, doing.
Don't forget that SDA has some speedruns up which are incredibly long...they're split up into multiple parts, which is definitely the way to do it.
I could see Zelda-type RPGs being good for a single-file timeattack video as they don't require leveling up. The NES Zeldas are obvious examples of this, and another one is Crusader of Centy (which was beaten in just under an hour).
Now, as far as traditional RPGs go, the main ones for SNES I can see being done are Mystic Quest and Mario RPG. They're both just naturally short games; Mystic Quest doesn't take much leveling up (particularly if you opt to kill the last boss with Cure), and Mario will probably take even less once you get Mario's Super Jump (the Lazy Shell stuff at the end of the game would be a huge help as well).
Another thing I just thought of for Mario: Could you possibly use rerecording to make the Geno Whirl get critical hits every time? That would be just ENORMOUS, as that move does 9999 damage.
Anyway, to stay on topic, Secret of Mana probably would take forever, mainly because it still has the arbitrary hit/miss system of traditional RPGs (so you can't use your "bullet time" to dodge everything). Although, IF you could rerecord to make stuff miss, then I'm not sure...
-Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Well, as I'm currently playing Secret of Mana for the first time.. I can say this, it doesn't appear that getting perfect fighting for the least amount of time would be difficult to do without pumping up the rerecords, at least in ZSNES, because of the "rewind" feature.
However, that poses an interesting dilemma... Once re-record is announced for ZSNES officially, will those movies be accepted as well, or will only Snes9x movies be allowed for the SNES section?
Back to SoM::
Although there is the probability system for critical/normal hits, for both enemies and yourself... it would only matter for bosses I'd imagine, since you don't need to level up substantially... except for gold, in which case you'd have to be able to finagle the first couple of enemies who drop chests with insane GP to buy sufficient armor.. or just have the enemies who drop the armor in chests as your first encounters (Ex: Guantlet). This however poses a problem... based on the "levelling" mechanism in SoM. You need to kill monsters to level the weapons, which allows you to kill the monsters faster - in one attack.
Aside from that, I'm not sure that any video completed in a "fastest time" category would capture the sheer joy (that at least I find) of RPGs... making new levels... getting new magic...using new magic - over and over and OVER again.
EDITed for clarity.
Joined: 5/21/2004
Posts: 16
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
I guess Mario RPG would be a much more appropriate candidate for a speed run for sure.
Although, I'd gladly sit and watch SoM for entertainment just like I'd watch Zelda 64 or any very long 'run'.
Okay, here's a few things that I think need mentioning:
- Geno Whirl in Super Mario RPG was only designed to do 9999 damage against certain enemies. I believe the only boss that can succumb to this would be Exor. Also, killing enemies that give the 'Once Again' bonus first can be used to minimize battle times. There are also only certain enemies which leave behind the 'Once Again' items.
- In Secret of Mana, the only items one would probably need to buy are the ones that refill MP, at least until the Sprite gets MP Drain. You can repeatedly cast spells over and over again on enemies before the first spell's animation is finished and the damage will add up, to a max of 999. So I'd say leveling magic would be more beneficial than leveling weapons. Just find a spell with a short animation and repeatedly cast that.
Joined: 5/21/2004
Posts: 16
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Yeah the Faerie Walnut in SoM is 1000gp in the earliest part of the game and I think its price drops by a lot but its still expensive later.
The sprite's mana draining spell comes into the game once you get luna's magic (or might might be the dark guy?) and thats quite deep into the game.
And yeah you can only carry 4 of any kind of item at a time.
Faerie Walnuts do cost 1000gp and later you can get them for 500. Most merchants don't even sell them, but IMO it'd be easier to get them from chests. Forcing the drops would save a lot of time when compared to collecting money.
IMO magic should be leveled a bit. Some bosses just don't take decent damage if your magic hasn't passed a certain limit. Leveling magic is fast, though, and the only place where I can see it being long and boring is before the Mana Fortress (IIRC at least Lumina and Dryad should be quite high when entering the Fortress. Perhaps Shade, too?)
Making a run of SoM would probably be very, VERY tedious because the other two characters you are not controlling tend to get stuck in corners and get themselves killed all the time. If you are just running past all the enemies I'd say it's nearly impossible to avoid the other two getting hit or stuck at all.
EDIT: I just remembered the invincibility barrels. Perhaps they would solve a part of this problem. Then again, they are very rare and costly, and IIRC can't be dropped by monsters. This leads us to the first problem again. You would have to use the barrels often, because they disappear when you use magic or a weapon. This would probably mean at least after every boss. I don't remember whether the barrels stay when leaving an area and entering another.
(Credits to -Eric C. (The Master Treasure Hunter), from whose guide i took the following statistical information)
--==Items: (Name) - Cost - Location
***NOTE: Neko makes everything cost 2x what is in towns
Barrel - 900* - Only from Neko or from monster treasures
Faerie Walnut - 500 - Item Shops in Matango, Kakkara, Todo, etc...
--==Monsters: Name - location - Common/Rare Treasure
Basilisk - Ancient City - Faerie Walnut / Cockatrice Cap
Blat - Gaia's Navel - Candy / 20 Gold Pieces
Dark Funk - Fire Palace - Candy / Faerie Walnut
Emberman - Emperor'sCstle - Faerie Walnut / Chocolate
Evil Sword - Pandora Ruins - Candy / 120 Gold Pieces
Fierce Head - PalaceOfDrknes - Faerie Walnut / Unicorn Helm
Goblin - UndrgrndPalace - Candy / Faerie Walnut
Heck Hound - Tree Palace - Royal Jam / Faerie Walnut
Kimono Wizard - Ancient City - Faerie Walnut / Royal Jam
LA Funk - Ice Forest - Faerie Walnut / Cup of Wishes
Ma Goblin - UndrgrndPalace - 60 Gold Pieces / Power Wrist
Marmablue - Moon Palace - Faerie Walnut / Cup of Wishes
Mushgloom - Pure Land - Chocolate / Barrel
Mystic Book - Ice Palace - Chocolate / Faerie Walnut
National Scar - Tree Palace - Faerie Walnut / Amulet Helm
Pebbler - Moogle Village - Chocolate / Faerie Walnut
Polter Chair - Elinee'sCastle - 44 Gold Pieces / Barrel
Silktail - UpperLndForest - 158 Gold Pieces / Chocolate
Specter - Ice Palace - Faerie Walnut / Cup of Wishes
Steamed Crab - UpperLndForest - Faerie Walnut / Candy
Tomato Man - Pandora Ruins - Faerie Walnut / Cup of Wishes
Wizard Eye - NorthtownRuins - Chocolate / Faerie Walnut
Zombie - Pandora Ruins - Medical Herb / 96 Gold Pieces
As I just played through SoM and it is in my mind, SoM would be interesting at the least to play through as a video. Faerie Walnuts are relatively easy to get as drops (as seen above in the chart i pasted... which includes most relevant monsters -- except for substantial Equipment for selling or usage)... compared to buying them off Neko for 1K GP or in towns @ 500 GP. Luna's "MP Absorb" spell is quite useful, but what I find is that not levelling would hurt you greatly unless you also went for monsters which dropped heaping piles of gold in their treasure chests... From what I remember, killing enemies with magic does not give you GP.
Also, each of the spellcasters gain MP each level, and as such would need - I think - more than the allotted (4) Walnuts between saves/refuelling. That is of course barring some ability to make the Barrels last between each objective. Keeping only your main character out of a barrel means two uses. With jumping over chasms with the Whip, the barrel is used up - and must be re-used to keep the "Invincibility" effect. Now I'd have to check but I don't even think where it is feasible to have them, that it helps much. Sometimes, I remember I could dodge the monsters well-enough without them... Come to think of it, i never actually used a Barrel throughout my run. What I did use alot was the "Rewind" function in ZSNES ... another reason I choose ZSNES over SNES9x, but back to the topic at hand.
Having a complete video would be nice, but with the estimated 20 hours to beat it... not fun... I mean, c'mon it IS an RPG. Now I know Dragon Quest 1 is up here... and it is quite[/i] the accomplishment. The fact still remains I don't think making a complete video would serve purposes other than to see what is entailed in the absolute minimum in completing the game.
EDIT: However, from reading some guides, I can see a way to minimize excess GP usage, but it still would make quite an un-entertaining video. Also, getting the legendary "Mana Sword" appears to be possible, however it hasn't been working for me.
I think I can see it being done in 11-12 hours at top speed, but there is a lot of travelling and so on that in my opinion was mainly fun because of killing monsters on the way and getting new stuff at towns. Lacking that, a lot of the run would be pretty boring. I'd sure like to see some of the bosses whupped to hell perfectly though. I always got whipped by Lich, that guy was so freakin big..
So who knows, maybe the RPG timeattack is the next wave, maybe 45 minute games are just too boring...
if thats the case i reserve FF3!!!!!
secret of mana would be incredibly hard to do a speed run of and i dont expect to see one anytime soon. i have played this game to many times to count, and EVERY time that i have you need to spend time leveling your spells. there are no 2 ways about it. the 1st palace boss gigas or whatever it is, the diffrence between a level 0 and level 1 spell is huge. this alone would make the game insanely long. i doubt anyone could do it in under 5 - 8 hours. yes that is a long time but when you need to level a spell from 2 to 5, that takes a good 1 - 2 hours. again, i dont expect to see this speed run anytime soon. just to big.
hey i would love to see a speed run of it. i'm just saying that it would be extremely hard to do. i myself could'nt sit around a whole day watching it, but if the author could make say 10 "parts" or seperate movie files to view them in mabye an hour at a time that would be perfect to me. to me this is jsut a very rough estimate of how long it could take.
1.) running around leveling. you cant skimp on this. depending how hard the author is making the game for himself, 2 - 10 hours. for numbers sake, say 4. (this is killing all monsters on the way to the next person/area you need to go to)
2.) getting cash required for items. again you cant skimp on this. mabye 2 hours all up.
3.) leveling spells. this can be done with leveling, however at times you need to spend excess time getting spells 1 or 2 levels higher. if you want to do this game, you MUST do this. level 0 - 2 spells half way into the game (if you even make it that far) will get you killed by most bosses. this is where the time hit is. if you wanna do it right, i'd say about 4 - 8 hours.
4.) whole story line doing everything fast as possible without needing to level or anything. 7 - 10 hours.
so all up about 21 hours. lol yes this is'nt a game that can be rushed. unless someone makes a hacked game run, where you start off with everything maxed then i can see it being done in mabye 4 - 5 hours. RPG games beyond secret of mana's time just are'nt doable in speed runs. Secret of Mana 2, or Seiken Densetsu 3 as its known in japan, is about 2x the size of SOM eaisly. me and my friend played together, worked our party out and everything and it still took us over 16 hours to get about 3/4 of the way knowing exactly what we were doing. we still did'nt finish it either...
EDIT: Yggdrasil, if you mean the mana sword as in, trick the game to put you back at the 1st boss, the mantis ant, then yes it is doable. i did it with my rom that i had no problems. it is hard to do, but it can be done
http://kontek.net/davidwonn/snesm.html#S
Scroll down to Secret of Mana. There are lots of interesting glitches including that one. If you all aren't checking for bugs and glitches in games you time attack before you start, that's just stupid. Use some common sense.
That glitch can also be used in more ways than just getting the Mana Sword early as well. Just simply make a separate save point near other weapon orbs and perform the glitch off of those.
from what i understand, the glich cannot be done for any other part of the game. however, since you would only be doing this glitch near the end of the game, doing this resets your game into thinking you've started a new one right? so whats to stop you from say, doing that, and starting all over with max weapon skills, spell levels and all and doing a speed run then? might not be a whole lot of fun to watch though. just a thought
EDIT: due to a reply being deleted i am editing my post accordingly. sorry for the double post. lets just leave it at this... those who did'nt see be glad. now if you'll excuse my i am going to pour acid in my eyes.
Could any one please take this game up again?
Also.. I don't think you would need to level up that much. Levels will come as you go through the game. When you need magic levels you will use that in battle instead of weapons. But always keep on moving forward. Otherwise this game would be very boring.
Also, since you won't be taking so many hits due to re-recording and stuff, you woulden't need to buy armour until later in the game. I don't think armour is giving you more than defence in this game. So you woulden't have any other stats affected by it.
Furthermore I think you gain some XP from bosses. I remember gaining levels from them atleast. Not sure that it will be sufficent, hehe.. I more or less know that for a fact. But running a game includes astonishing moves and taking risks and pulling stuff off you woulden't be doing if playing normally. I think this would be a very nice run. But it do for sure require ALOT of planning.
Really hoping that someone will pick this up. Don't forget to read the guides and glitch faqs and what ever you can come up with. :)
Just keep in mind, never stop to level up since that would be hell of a boring thing to do.
Just keep in mind, never stop to level up since that would be hell of a boring thing to do.
Magic would probably have to be leveld up some because some boss battles would be EXTREMELY slow without high level magic.
Besides, doing a timeattack on this game would be nervewrecking because the other two members of your party get stuck and hit all the time. Getting them killed might be an option but it would take time and be very boring to watch.
Nevertheless, a timeattack would be extremely nice to see and I'd watch it regardless of leveling up or getting the party members killed. I just don't see it happening.
Well.. Get three people to play then. It would eleminate the other two characters to get stuck. :)
And what I mean is that you can level up your magic at the bosses. Since frequent use of magic will pay off sooner or later. You will just need to use the faery walnut alot. It would take too long to level all magics needed.
The girl woulden't really need to level her magics. The only one she really needs is perhaps undine's cure. Those sabre spells would come in handy at bosses though. But for sure you woulden't need to level them since that would be a waste of time. In speed runs you will need to find alternative solutions to problems, right?
It would probably be hard as hell to finish this game at low levels.
I know for sure that having gnome up a couple of levels would kill that moving wall in the ruins very quick. I don't even think it beginns to move if you train that spell as far as you can at that moment.
Still though you would need to find other solutions.
And what I mean is that you can level up your magic at the bosses. Since frequent use of magic will pay off sooner or later. You will just need to use the faery walnut alot.
The girl woulden't really need to level her magics. The only one she really needs is perhaps undine's cure. Those sabre spells would come in handy at bosses though. But for sure you woulden't need to level them since that would be a waste of time. In speed runs you will need to find alternative solutions to problems, right?
It would probably be hard as hell to finish this game at low levels.
Faerie Walnuts are not easy to acquire early on, and you can only carry 4 at a time. I really don't know whether it would be faster to level up the magics beforehand or just give the bosses all the crappy spells you've got and then do the rest with physical attacks, but I'm guessing the former. Leveling the magics is faster than leveling the characters themselves, and since HP shouldn't be a problem, I'd go for leveling the magics.
(Sorry if it doesn't make any sense, I was in a hurry.)
