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Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432
by my estimation based on the size of the video's, the final thing will be 4:30 long. Very rough, though, obviously.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Fuzzmosis: You're right. The battle in the Imperial Camp battle with 3 enemies, Cyan on auto-pilot, and Sabin at low HP could have been improved. Here Sabin uses a potion because the previous battle (Sabin versus 4 dudes) almost killed him. Using the potion isn't what makes this battle imperfect. Entering the subscreen outside of battle just to use a potion is slower than using one in battle. Of course, this may not be worth it if the next battle is slower as a result. The reason the battle is imperfect is because I could have manipulated two counter-attacks against Sabin rather than waiting for Sabin to get his next turn to attack the last enemy. The Imperial Base and the Serpent Trench are the only places where Sabin might possibly use his HP and I leave Sabin at 1 HP from the Barren Falls through Nikeah. Perhaps I could have even manipulated a dodge, instead? I noticed that both Ifrit and #024 desynched after waiting a few frames for a desperation attack. I think this is due to me miscounting or something. In v7 I had two black frames that forced me to be very deliberate with how I reloaded and pressed the A button. I don't think it is just a coincidence that my first two bosses since switching to v9 have desynced. I have no idea how the movie could record correctly and play back 1 frame late but I can replicate the problem. On Saturday I replayed #024 three times and Sabin's TigerBreak always played back one frame too late. Fir this version that does not desync I actually played a large chunk of the battle in one take without using save states after each move. (I wrote down my inputs on a piece of paper while I used save states, reloaded back to the beginning, and followed the instructions.) I'm very happy with how #024 turned out. His rare steal (Drainer) has an alternate battle effect that can be bugged when the user is alive at 0 HP. I might need that. The next WIP after the Cranes will be my last for awhile. I'm going to spend a lot of time figuring out the following things: - How to best learn the magic spell required for the sketch glitch. - How much time Mog does or doesn't save in the WOB. Technically, he saves none. But teaching him vanish now might save time, unless... - How much time Sabin will save in the WOR. Sabin can put Sprint Shoes and a Charm Bangle on for Celes. Even on a cartridge Sabin only takes 3 minutes to get - worldmap to worldmap. If Sabin IS a timesaver in the WOR then he can learn Mog's vanish spell, pwn some things, and travel with Mog in the final dungeon to visit Goddess. Mog knowns Snare. :) - How to learn magic: Chain Saw on Cactrot, Snare on Intangir, or pick up the points during required battles such as the cave, banquet, and the IAF sequence? - I am stealing DragonBoots from Wyvern near Vector as a I walk to the sealed gate. I can't stop random encounters, I need a pair, and now I need the spell points. That'll take me awhile. Remember that it has taken me 6 months to get this far! I'm on pace to finish next October. I'm still hoping for 4 hours from power on to Kefka's death. The ending takes half an hour by itself and I can put that in a separate movie. If I miss 4 hours then maybe I can try to keep it under 1 million frames?
Post subject: Re: Easter!
Emulator Coder
Joined: 6/8/2005
Posts: 236
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Catastrophe wrote:
I watched my entire movie from the beginning and it reached the end safely.
I hope by reaching the end you mean ending just after defeating number 024, cause that's when the movie stopped responding. Excellent run so far, it was enjoyable not only because you made very clever use of desparation attacks (multiple times on one battle, I might add) but I also didn't have to press TAB once the whole time. I went through two freaking bags of popcorn on this. And the Kutan bug is pretty funny. When playing this game through the first few times I never even thought that was possible. No desyncs and thoroughly optimized routes as far as I can tell. I definitely can't wait till you finish this. <--- Absolute yes vote coming from this satisfied viewer.
Joined: 5/4/2004
Posts: 90
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
After reading this thread I've decided I'm gonna wait until this is done before I watch it. Partly because I want to save the excitement and partly because I'm too lazy to go get the ROM. But I may change my mind.
Joined: 3/15/2005
Posts: 30
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
I just watched the most recent WIP and wanted to say how happy I am you are taking time sacrifices for entertainment/glitch value. Despite being a TAS, it seems to me people don't really watch the longer RPG/Speedruns for time--they watch it in order to see battle/tactical optimization, crazy glitches, and to indulge in some nostalgia without actually playing the game. I also appreciate your write-ups, describing what you are doing. It leads to a much greater appreciation of what you are doing and how difficult it is. I'm highly impressed by the Kutan glitch. I was so confused at first. "Wait, weren't you supposed to pick up Celes? Ha! She's supposed to be talking there. And when did he get Mog? Did I miss that? Why is his name different? Wait--Kutan is changing into a girl?! Ooooohhhhhh..." It's always fun to witness crazy glitches you had no idea about. Also, I can't wait for you to start manipulating the sketch glitch. Keep up the good work! You've got one more fan watching.
I ought not to tie the knot too taught.
Joined: 8/13/2005
Posts: 356
Location: Canada
When I read about this in the other FF6 (Final Fantasy III) topic, I thought it was a joke or something. This is very impressive so far. I'm really looking forward to the end product. I guess the hard part begins in the next room, having to carefully determine who learns what spells and how.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 6/8/2005
Posts: 236
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
I watch RPG speedruns of FF and CT games because I played through them all many times. But seeing what took you days to complete on your own done in mere hours through such trickery as luck manipulation at high speed is the exciting part. It'll also teach you new things about the game that you probably never heard of (for example I never knew about the start + walk on enemies glitch.) The best part about the battles, I think, is the way you pretty much make desparation moves child's play. Oh yeah, and how you played around in the menus a bit :) Like the roulette cursor thing. I laughed out loud when I saw it.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Thank you for noticing the cursor roulette! I try. :) I'm switching to plan B for Number 128. My original plan was to summon either 2-3 Bahamuts or 1-2 Crusaders (hehe) to deplete his 3276 HP. Unfortunately, Crusader does 1700 when Sabin uses it, Sabin's Bahamut does 1100, and the other characters do about 60% damage when they try instead. Since Crusader requires setup to not annihilate myself Sabin cannot use both Crusaders while Bahamut fails to finish the job unless Sabin summons all 3. Even if I were to do that then a simple TigerBreak for 2500 would still be better. So plan B it is! Speaking of well-crafted bosses, this guy features a ones digit! :P He's an order of magnitude cooler than Dadaluma! I think I can do exactly that much damage in three hits but one of them will have to be a TigerBreak. After this boss the bosses stop having HP on the order of 3000 and immediately start having HP on the order of 10,000. So this will be the last desperation move I ever use and the last boss I ever kill by dealing damage to it. But then again, you never know. Nerapa doesn't count. :P Nerapa absorbs fire magic but is weak against getting his butt kicked. I'd use the three minutes or so to torture that monster if killing it quickly and jumping without Shadow weren't so much faster. (Sorry ninja fans, but there is no way in heck I was going to pick him up anyway.) EDIT: SaxxonPike? Oddity? y/n? :D
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
Here is my WIP: http://rapidshare.de/files/18376670/FFIII.smv.html Sorry for using rapidshare, please deal with it :P. A few notes: - Final Fantasy 3 (1.1), though (1.0) users should not have any desync problems. - Managed to defeat Whelk before it's second turn. - Didn't get the Hyper Wrist, Running Shoes or Atlas Armlet. - Currently up to the Returner's Hideout. I'll be buying my Echo Screens here instead of Nikeah later on. - Slightly quicker than Catastrophe's run. - Un-beatable(by time) Vargas battle(excuse me for bragging but I felt really good inside doing that bit :P). - I'll be getting Celes. - Buy Smoke Bombs at Narshe after the raid. - I may bring only one other character along with Locke and Celes. But I'm having second thoughts because of Number 128. - Aside from holding directional buttons while the screen is black to walk immediatly, I press only the required amount of buttons. No more than necessary. BUT I didn't know about escaping and I held L/R one frame more than I needed to, several times. I hope to get rid of them somehow. - Sabin joins at LV.10. It took a lot of planning(and headaches, I hate maths) in advance to know how much EXP I would need to gain. - I really hope you enjoy watching what I have so far because I have enjoyed every minute making it. Fin.
Post subject: Erim's Times
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Your Whelk is 2742 frames, mine is 2970, apparently because of better randomness. The same things happen in both movies. You save more time by not having Wedge or Vicks run away in battle number 2. Your Terra is at a lower level because of this, but you win two battles before Locke appears. You're 315 frames ahead at the time Locke is named. First Command on Whelk: 17251 (18971) Got Potion: 20981 (21941) Locke Start Button: 39507 (39822) Between Locke and the first black frame of the Marshall fight we are the same. Somehow, your Marshall battle was 22 frames faster even though the battles were exactly the same for both of us. Now you're 333 frames ahead. Black Frame: 45623 (45934) Black Frame: 47143 (47476) When "EDGAR: " appears in the text after naming Edgar my time is 56519 and yours is 56136 (-383) even though you stop to win against the leafer. When "SOLDIER: " appears in the text box in front of the cave my time is 83868 and yours is 83374 (-494). You picked up 111 frames during the M-Tek fight and chocobo ride afterwards. Next, you save a rediculously unmeasureable amount of time by taking neither the RunningShoes & Hyper Wrist in South Figaro nor the Atlas Armlet in Koltz. You said you're going to do Locke's scenario correctly and actually get Celes so that would be why. Or maybe you'll just never need the relics? These are the Vargas times, but I think I might have measured the second half wrong: Black Frame: 102021 (108103) "Enough!": 104120 (110822) difference: 2099 (2719) Black Frame: 107004 (113736) difference: 2914 (2884) I must be wrong because your second half is apparently 30 frames faster than mine despite getting hit with !Doom Fist and two dialogs. The final frame after entering the Returner's Hideout is: Erim: 111904 (+6488, +10655) Me: 118392 (+4167 Jyzero: 122559 (Erim already knows all this because we're talking on AIM.)
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
Actually you're the one who stops to kill the Leafer. Just a mix up. Also, to answer your question on AIM, here are my test results. Getting the Gauntlet and touching the note is 200 frames slower than just getting the Gauntlet. Getting the Genji Glove is 1500 frames quicker than getting the Gauntlet. So, final word: get the Genji Glove.
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Competition while teamwork eh? Great work guys! Keep pushing it. :)
Joined: 1/1/2006
Posts: 6
Catastrophe, you're my new hero. Just so you know.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Simon wrote:
Catastrophe, you're my new hero. Just so you know.
Thank you. :) I'm still working on #128. I'm trying to kill him with all of the following conditions: - get the rare steal - two hits - exactly 3,276 damage - no one dies - as fast as possible on that last Tiger Break I was also hoping that Sabin could 'solo' the boss by doing Aurabolt and TB for exactly enough damage. I've had him fall 8 and 1 damage short in test runs. If I had some way to deal exactly 1 point of damage that would be the best kill ever. :( Then something funny happened on an unrecorded test run. I wanted to see how much damage Edgar would do with Bahamut and Earrings. First try, Sabin Aurabolts for 701 damage when he only needed 661 damage (653 and 660 before). So then I scrap the Edgar plan and go back to doing Aurabolt. Equipping Edgar would've cost time, anyway. It feels like this game doesn't generate enough random numbers. I try different indices (values of $00BE) and I seem to get the same results all the time. But I know that the crazy boss battle that I want is still possible, so I try. EDIT: Since you're probably wondering what the Magicite was for, I was supposed to use it here. But for some reason Aurabolt out-damages Bahamut from either Locke or Edgar and other non-Crusader summons do a whopping 200 damage or less. Even Edgar's Chain Saw does 500 damage. I definitely over estimated my damage output. The reason why I want to do 3276 damage is because Number 128 has exactly 6 more HP than Dadaluma. But, I just said Dadaluma. ;) If I used three hits and the third hit was a punch from Edgar then I could definitely do it. That's what I'll do if I can't get plan C to work. (So... many... re-records! *pulls out hair*) Since I can't scan this guy I might just forget about the perfect kill like DeHackEd says in the post below this one. But don't worry about the magicite being a waste of time! ;)
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player
Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833
As cool as an exact kill is and all, unless you SCAN the enemy just prior to doing the killing blow to reveal its HP (immunity allowing), I think the effect would be wasted on most people. Even if you knew the boss' exact amount of HP, I doubt viewers are going to keep track of remaining HP. I vote for smashing him.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 178
y/n? Yes. I thought the name Catastrophe sounded familiar. I forget if I even commented in here, but I watched the run. It desynched where everyone said, but watched the fixed version and ended up holding tab til the last place I saw (that was fun), just to see the movie ended pretty soon after that. Seems like hardwork to type so much crap, and then have someone else trying to compete with your run. I thought I talked a lot.
<^>v AB X LR s
Post subject: Competition
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Oddity wrote:
Seems like hardwork to type so much crap, and then have someone else trying to compete with your run.
Erim is going to be faster but I'm hoping that my (ticks + glitches + (6h30m - time)) coolness number is still somehow higher than Erim's coolness number. Even if my run does get obsoleted Erim promised to wait a bit before submitting. And even if my run does become obsolete then there is a GBA port coming out! >:) Dash button + hyper text scrolling - glitches = overall faster - boring scenes + more intense battles!!! :D I hoping that the GBA port is so awesome that no one will need to use frame-skip on it. And like I said in my first post, the regulars here would hate me if I didn't share information. Nobody has ever done a competitive speedrun against someone else where keeping tricks a secret until a movie is published is part of the game. Maybe the judges would reject my run simply because I wouldn't help the person who was posting WIPs? I can imagine it: "Status: rejected; Reason: fuck you". :P
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
I wouldn't think they would do that. For starters, I suspect this run will get MANY MANY yes votes very quickly. Besides, helping Erim with his (her?) run with the information you have shouldn't have any bearing on the worthiness of your run as far as being published on the site. After all, you seem to work much more quickly on your run, and Erim has already stated that it will be a quite a while before her run is ready to be submitted for publication. I could be wrong, but I think your run will be publish-worthy when it is submitted (assuming the quality of the run remains consistent). If Erim's run later obsoletes yours, it will occur quite a while later in the future. You are both to be commended. You do realize there are going to be a lot of people wanting to learn about how you mapped out that RNG, right? (Imagines the TAS possibilities, then watches the WIP and sees them in action)
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Erim is the fast one. I spent from November until the start of Erim's run just getting to the MTRF. Since then I've just finished the Cranes while Erim is... moving a hellova lot faster than I am and saving time. But then again, I spent alot of time learning how the game works, not using turbo-A, and comparing myself to Jyzero. Since I don't do any of those things anymore my real world speed will increase. I talk to Erim every day on AIM and we exchange everything but we agreed not to post secrets about each other's runs. (Including secrets that apply to both of our runs.) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1068/run.smv is my latest WIP. I stopped at the very frame where you first get control of the airship. Number 128 played out in an unexpected way. The first thing I tried was 2 Blitzes or Chain Saws and a Tiger Break. Then I realized that it would be much faster to manipulate one extremely high damage attack and use just one. Unfortunately, one Aurabolt does a calculated and verified [578..658]. Sabin's Tiger Break basically does 2615 if I do the 'right' one. Combined that deals a total of 3273 damage, which is 3 HP short! So then I decide to skip the rare steal and have Locke punch the boss since I can't really use the rare steal anyway. Unfortunately, this boss has a counter that might as well be called !Drain. I was already manipulating away the chances of him using this. Unfortunately the remaining possibilities seemed to always result in either a !Drain on Locke, a Slice on Sabin, or a Rapier on Edgar. (Dead, dead, dead, in that order.) Since !Drain leaves the boss with more HP than Locke started his turn with, that is also bad. ;) I also tried having Sabin summon Bahamut at the start of the battle. I was happy to see that it did 800+ damage every time! However, doing so also kills off the two wingmen. Not only do I need those two wingmen to knock Sabin down to low HP, but they also take longer to fade away and die than the entire battle in this WIP! So Bahamut was ruled out. I found my current (odd) solution while essentially brute forcing frames on Sabin's first Aurabolt. I don't know what I was looking for, but I found a rare sequence of random numbers that allowed me to take a beating from Number 128 at the start of the battle, live (barely), and counter attack just in time for a DA before he gets his turn again. Surprisingly I do not use Tiger Break even though Sabin is set up for it. It turned out to be faster for Sabin to assist Locke. The reason is because Locke is ready to take an action right as $7E3A3E unlocks DA moves. If I were level 8 here I'd be screwed. Well, no, but I'd take 1500 frames just killing it with 2 DAs, which is still bad. The above lengthy example is what I mean by mapping out the RNG. For example, I have written down on a piece of paper here that "569 -> *, 2, 5" which means that pressing A to confirm my attack on frame xxx569 results in Edgar and Locke getting beaten down to 5 and 2 HP. Also, "471470 = 653", which was Aurabolt damage on a previous test run. Let's pretend that Number 128 does only have 3273 HP and that Aurabolt + Tiger Break manipulated to their full potential will kill him. I'll test 30-40 values for $BE for Aurabolt, write down all the 658's, and reload to the beginning of the battle. Now, I do whatever new and different manipulation I have to do to get Sabin's butt kicked. Now, I Aurabolt on one of my chosen frames, do 658 damage, do Tiger Break when $BE = A5, do 2615 damage, and not have to worry about manipulating two things at once. :) Number 128 messes this up quite a bit because of his darn three parts. They'd frequently interrupt me and cause me to 'miss' the frame I was aiming for. Desperation moves are very easy. I made a slight typo on the first page. Replace 'D9' with 'D1' and blame some temporarily bad penmanship. :) In addition to noting which frames gave Sabin a DA, I also noted the damage that they would do against any foe. So I also have a table of 8C->2468, A5->2615, E3->2395, and so on for all 16 values. Now if I ever need at least 2500 damage from Sabin to end a battle I'll know without doing a single re-record or test which DA is the fastest that will also get the job done! This is how I did Dadaluma. I figured out that a punch, a Chain Saw, and a Tiger Break would do the job. Then I just went back and picked the fastest frames for the last two attacks that had the result I wanted.
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Awesome once again! :D Could you please provide more save states for your WIP's? For example for next WIP it would be great to have one that brings you right to the crane fight or something.
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 53
Catastrophe wrote:
The first thing I tried was 2 Blitzes or Chain Saws and a Tiger Break. Then I realized that it would be much faster to manipulate one extremely high damage attack and use just one. Unfortunately, one Aurabolt does a calculated and verified [578..658]. Sabin's Tiger Break basically does 2615 if I do the 'right' one. Combined that deals a total of 3273 damage, which is 3 HP short!
What's Sabin's equipment here? Is there anything you can put on him to boost his M. Power?
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
Catastrophe, it's two nights in a row now that I've gotten desynced. This is really starting to shit me, so much to the point that I don't want to continue anymore. It's so fucking annoying, I feel like murdering someone right now. I just spent 5 hours on that segment, only to play it back and have it desync. I AM SO BLOODY FURIOUS. I don't know what the hell causes it, or how to fix it. I rely on a good buddy to do it for me, but fuck it if it's always going to desync like this. And for the record, he hasn't fixed it yet, and he doesn't know if he can. If anybody able to offer help, then all I can give in return is a thank you. Third edit: Thanks flaggy for fixing it, I owe you heaps.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Yay for getting the desync fixed! ^_^ Highness: I'd like to, but I need upload space for the 'bookmark' save states. I could use yousendit/rapidshare/whatever but that's not really convienient for 1 or 2 save states each update. I'll at least keep doing packs of 10 save states every 200,000 frames or every ten noteworthy scenes. You can also make your own save states in my movie. Sabin's (default!) equipment does not boost his magic power and I do not have any items in my possession that can raise Sabin's battle power. Sabin's two relic slots are full of the two earrings which essentially multiply my damage by 1.5x. I need the 3 points of damage in addition to that. But, I think I need to redo the mine cart sequence (and cranes, and the story sequence) over again. Three reasons: 1) By my calculation, Edgar's Royal Shock (desperation attack) should do 2734 damage if he takes both earrings from Sabin. That leaves 542 damage for Sabin to do. Also, Edgar can boost his magic power with the Blizzard. This raises his 'A5' desperation to 2866 damage! Sabin can definitely handle the remaining 410 damage, especially with a Hero Ring if he has to. If I have to replay this battle it will be faster and hopefully still faster overall after I juggle my equipment. 2) I like Ice Rods. :) I've discovered that Terra's morph command is unuseable when she arrives at FlameEater. The rare steal on Number 128 is 'Ice Rod + 1000 GP'. ;) I would like that! 3) The sketch glitch requires that I have one character with a particular type of spell in their 28th in-battle spell list. This can be manipulated by altering the spell sorting config. Unfortunately, none of my characters can do it right now with any of the 6 sorting options. So, instead of Muddle, Sabin needs to be learning whatever else works instead. There are basically no spell points available from the mine cart to the time when I need to activate the glitch. I'll figure out which spells I need now, change espers, and have that spell ready for when Relm arrives. (Sabin learned Mute, which does work, but Sabin needs to learn other spells to manipulate the sorting options to put Mute into exactly the right RAM position.)
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Catastrophe - Feel free to e-mail me savestates and I'll host them for you without any problem.
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Why doesn't everyone just make their own savestates as they watch the progress?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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