Post by Warp

Posted: 6/28/2004 9:10 AM

Post subject: New disclaimers for videos made using recordable emulators

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Mister_DAN

Joined: 6/28/2004
Posts: 3

Good evening. I am a concerned competative gamer who strongly believes that not enough is being done to warn internet viewers that videos made using Famtasia and/or a similar recordable save-stating emulators are not given clear enough disclaimers as to how they are produced and what they are. I propose to Bisqwit that each video he encodes have a disclaimer at least 10 seconds in length which reads as the following: "The video you are about to see is an illegitiamte hoax. It was created using a recordable savestating emulator and should not be confused as a legitimate run." If there is anything in my proposed disclaimer that you find objectionable and/or false, please outline exactly what that point of tension is. Otherwise, as a competative gamer who is having more and more difficulty proving my accomplishments with the advent of these illegitimate videos, I expect to see this disclaimer at the beginning of each video you encode. It is the least you can do in order to appease those who have been making legitimate runs far before the first of these illegitimate videos surfaced. Thanks for your time.

Posted: 6/28/2004 9:12 AM

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KaitouKid

Former player

Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 384

If you don't like the community, stay away from it. There, I've solved everything, now gimme some god damn tea.

Posted: 6/28/2004 9:18 AM

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Goofyman

Joined: 5/15/2004
Posts: 30
Location: USA

"The video you are about to see is an illegitiamte hoax. It was created using a recordable savestating emulator and should not be confused as a legitimate run." ------------ First of all, the movies aren't about being legitimate. They are for entertainment purposes. Secondly, most websites which give out .avis, .wmvs, etc. have a disclaimer or explanation stating that the movies were tool-assisted (As said on the description of this very forum) If someone doesn't do that, there's no rule saying that they have to, but it's sort of expected. That quote is kind of like saying "The movie you are about to see is fake. It is in no way to be confused with real life." It's redundant. I don't know of any sites that don't give a disclaimer stating of the tool-assistance, and honestly, most of these runs have times which would obviously shine tool-assisted. The only exception is Mario 1, in which legit runs are fairly close to TAs...

Posted: 6/28/2004 9:35 AM

Post subject: *sigh*

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Xerophyte

Joined: 5/17/2004
Posts: 106
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Firstly, 10 seconds of disclaimer would be highly annoying and entirely contrary to the entertainment purpose of the video. Secondly, the videos are not hoaxes. They are exactly what they claim to be. Thirdly, the videos already contain a disclaimer stating exactly what they are - emulator movies and tool-assisted speedruns - and a link for more information. You may feel that this is insufficient, goodness knows why, but an overwelming majority does not agree with you. It's not practical to re-encode every movie whenever someone decides that the disclaimer is not up to their personal standards, Bisqwit & Co. have to settle for something that most people find sufficient - such as the current disclaimer. Fourthly, I faily to see how they can make it more difficult to "prove [your] accomplishments". Tool assisted runs are not competing with speed runs in any way. They do show that your runs, whatever they may be, are not theoretically perfect - but we all knew that.

Posted: 6/28/2004 12:15 PM

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feitclub

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN

DON'T FEED TROLLS. He's not trying to make a point, he's just being a dick.

Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com

Posted: 6/28/2004 12:26 PM

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Booda

Joined: 4/26/2004
Posts: 149

Illegitimate hoax? Isn't that like a double-negative?

Posted: 6/28/2004 1:54 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=339&highlight=complain Read this Mister DAN. Btw I don't mind if people like you are frustrated.I'm doing these videos and that's all.

Posted: 6/28/2004 4:20 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

>"Warning: This is an imperfect run of the game. It's full of mistakes and the game could be completed much faster than this." Actually, I have seen a video with this kind of warning (Super Mario World). It was something along the lines of "We realize that this run could have been faster - even by seconds - WE DON'T CARE"

Posted: 6/28/2004 5:42 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

OK, for those of you who don't know, the thread starter here is a Gamefaqs troll who is more obssessive about timeattacks stealing his nonexistant fame (and don't say "Twin Galaxies gets all the attention and they suck" again, that's like saying that all the best American fighting game players don't compete in any tournaments) than anyone I've ever seen being obssessive over anything. Whew, that was a pretty long sentence. =P Anyway, let's just say I have had a bad experience with one of his "friends" (not sure if that's true or just him under fake names) on AIM and leave it at that. Please lock this thread, Josh.

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 6/28/2004 8:11 PM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

I think he's been much more civil here than he ahs been at GameFAQs. The only problem I have with his post here is that 10 seconds is a bit long (don't you think? the current disclaimer lasts for 5, and I think that's long enough) and "hoax" does not desribe these videos (though it's preferable to "fake" or "cheat"). But really, there's already a discussion about this: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 6/28/2004 10:29 PM

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Mister_DAN

Joined: 6/28/2004
Posts: 3

I see... Apparently the truth strips the fun away. Well, allow me to slightly modify the disclaimer... "The video you are about to see is an illegitiamte hoax for entertainment purposes only. It was created using a recordable savestating emulator and should not be confused as a legitimate run." Now it isn't even nessassary to provide a URL to Bisqwit's site on the disclaimer, because everything has been explained in a lucid, accessible fashion. If anyone were to read this disclaimer, and still believe that these movies are legitimate, then it is safe to say they have a sub-monocellular IQ and should be burnt at the stake for the good of humanity...

Posted: 6/28/2004 11:30 PM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

"The video you are about to see is an illegitiamte hoax. It was created using a recordable savestating emulator and should not be confused as a legitimate run." Apparently you think this would be an appropriate disclaimer that gives the necessary information. If this is the case, then if we use this disclaimer it can't be a hoax, because hoaxes are intended to fool people, and would try to hide information. I thought the current disclaimer (which did last long enough to be read) which included the words "tool assisted" was enough, but if just knowing that tools were used to make the gameplaying easier isn't enough and you need to know all the details of exactly how Famtasia works, then how about something like a 6 second disclaimer that says: "This emulator movie was made using save states and slow motion as a tool to perfect the gameplay of this entertaining movie, and is not a legitimate record." I propose to Bisqwit that each video he encodes have a disclaimer at least 10 seconds in length which reads as the following: For most people, I think only 6 seconds would be more than enough to read a disclaimer of that length. Anything from 4 to 7 would probably be fine, but 10 would just be boring and annoying. Otherwise, as a competative gamer who is having more and more difficulty proving my accomplishments with the advent of these illegitimate videos How would you have more difficulty proving your accomplishments now that more people are making Famtasia movies? Famtasia has been around since 1999, but it just wasn't so popular, but it was still possible for people to make speed runs with it and attempt to pass them off as legit. Now that so many people are making Famtasia movies (though very few claim them as legit), websites that keep track of video game scores will see what Famtasia is capable of and they'll just be much more careful, so if anything, the recent popularity of Famtasia has helped prevent legit and Famtasia movies from being mixed up. If no one knew about Famtasia, then if anyone tried to pass off a Famtasia movie as legit he could easily get away with it. If you don't like the community, stay away from it. Well he hasn't flamed yet or said that he doesn't like the community in this topic, he's just trying to help improve the disclaimer. Despite what he's said on GameFAQs, we shouldn't assume that he's here to cause trouble, so as long as he stays civilized there's no need to tell him to go away. http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=339&highlight=complain Read this Mister DAN. Btw I don't mind if people like you are frustrated.I'm doing these videos and that's all. It seems that you missed the point of his post. He didn't call anyone a cheater or unproffesional, or tell us to stop making the movies. His post was about what the disclaimer should be. He spoke politely, and he wasn't too unreasonable in his request, so if you don't agree with him, then instead of being arrogant you should logically explain why you don't think his request is unreasonable, explain what you find objectionable and/or false about his disclaimer, and outline exactly what the point of tension is. If you are correct, then you shouldn't have any trouble politely explaining these things, and if you can't then maybe his point was stronger than you thought it was. Please lock this thread I'd rather see some intelligent discussions and hopefully an agreement on what the proper disclaimer should be, so for now I'll keep this topic open, but if it ends up turning into a flame war, then I most certainly will lock it. I see... Apparently the truth strips the fun away. Which comment in this topic implied that the truth strips the fun away? I think we're all in agreement that people should know the truth, but I think some of us aren't in agreement about what information is necessary to make sure that people know the truth, how much detail should be included, and what information should be in the movie itself and what information can be at the site instead.

Posted: 6/28/2004 11:35 PM

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Xerophyte

Joined: 5/17/2004
Posts: 106
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Most other people, Yeh, I've seen the gamefaqs thread and it certainly strayed from sensible debate. Still, this thread is still civil, and I don't really see why not to keep it going as long as all parties keep their tempers and egos in check. If things start go pear-shaped, it can be locked away with no harm done. Dan, Your suggested disclaimer is neither more nor less true than the current one. The issue is a matter of which explains the purpose of the videos better. The main additions to the current formulations that you push for, as I understand it, is the labeling of the NESvideos runs as illegitimate and hoaxes. That they are hoaxes is, I must say, obviously untrue. The videos are exactly what they claim to be. A hoax involves intentional misleading and there is simply no such thing involved here. Pointing out their illegitimacy has merit, but only in the context of the videos as record-breakers. In the context we are trying to establish them in - entertainment - they are entirely legitimate. I assume that you mean that they are, in fact, "illegitimate as record-breakers" and nothing else, but your current suggested disclaimer is confusing in that regard. Now, there are several reasons that Bisq & co. have not added this to their disclaimer. First and most importantly, most people can understand that a "tool-assisted run" and an "emulator movie" is also illegitimate as a record-breaker. Most especially, the people who care about video game records in the first place know very well what an emulator is and that it's not allowed for records. Also, as these statements give more information about the video than just 'illegitimate as record-breaker', your suggested addition is wholly redundant. Second, stating that the videos 'illegitmate as a record-breakers' is confusing in that it alludes to a context that is unrelated to the context of the video. In short, we say more by calling the videos 'emulator made' and 'tool-assisted' rather than 'illegitimate as record-breaker' and we say it more clearly. You could argue that it would be to the benefit of the people who fail to grasp that a tool-assisted, emulator-made movie is an illegitimate record, and you would obviously be right. The problem is that this group is very tiny. If we're to clear up confusions, there are targets of higher priority available than this. The line had to be drawn somewhere, which was above what you're looking for. The detailed explanations were left to the site and the site is linked to in the video. Before you ask, examples of comments more important but still not in the disclaimers are: - no video editing tools used - no rom hacks used - explanation of specific emulator techniques (states and slowdown) ...and so on. There's no compelling reason to present all this in the video file when a link will do for all those interested in the specifics or confused about the meanings of 'tool-assisted' and 'emulator'. [Disclaimer: No, no, I don't enjoy debating trivial subjects at length in the slightest. It's all a ruse, I'm typing at gunpoint :p]

Posted: 6/29/2004 12:01 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Any disclaimer longer than 1 second is too much for me to handle.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 6/29/2004 12:20 AM

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Booda

Joined: 4/26/2004
Posts: 149

Bag of Magic Food wrote:

Any disclaimer longer than 1 second is too much for me to handle.

The first time attack I found was actually on Kazaa, and the way I found Bisqwit's site was (are you ready for this technical mumbo jumbo?) to stop the movie at the screen where the information is given so I could read it. Yes, imagine that. I took it upon myself and put forth the effort to find information that I deemed of importance. If other people can't do this, then the information must not be that important to them.

Posted: 6/29/2004 1:15 AM

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Locke

Joined: 3/29/2004
Posts: 224

Yeah, 1 second would be fine. If peope can't read that fast, (I'm sure most people won't catch everything), then they can pause it. And those of us who already know what the disclaimer says won't have to sit through the 6 second pause.

Posted: 6/29/2004 1:24 AM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

Locke wrote:

And those of us who already know what the disclaimer says won't have to sit through the 6 second pause.

I wasn't envisioning it as a pause. The splashscreen we have now goes at the beginning for a half-second or whatever it is, then the disclaimer is a subtitle along with the movie information for 4~6 seconds.. like it already is now. Wat we're arguing (or should be) is the content.. and there was already a topic about that...

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 6/29/2004 1:28 AM

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Locke

Joined: 3/29/2004
Posts: 224

In the Contra 3 run it's an actual pause, but at least it's pretty short.

Posted: 6/30/2004 3:49 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Well, a pause might be better, since it doesn't cover up the actual movie.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 6/30/2004 9:14 AM

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Dark_Mana

Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191

personaly the idea of putting a disclaimer at the begining of any speed run/time attack video seriously detracts from its powerful nature. you can read any number of posts on other forums about speed runs such as the infamous super mario bros 3 run and they will always say that he cheats. if you see any of these videos and straight away think "this guy is cheating, this is fake" well i'm sorry to say that the whole point of the movie was missed by you. these are made for enjoyment of others and (to me at least) the pure shock factor that games we played so much as kids/teenagers are now done so damn quick. i remember playing games such as metroid for months never even getting to see kraid as i got lost so easy. putting "this movie is a hoax, we slow down the game and rerecord 100s of times" or anything like that before the movie would just hurt the atmosphere being created. its a lot more fun to watch a movie in total ignorance of how it was accomplished.

Posted: 6/30/2004 1:23 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

Could someone please lock this thread (or delete it completely) and ban that troll? The videos are not illegitimate: They do exactly what they promise. The videos are not a hoax: A hoax is an attempt to deceive people by lying to them and trying to make them believe something that is not true. These videos are not trying to lie: They are genuine tool-assisted speedruns which do not show anything that couldn't be achieved in the real game in theory. The videos do not need a nag-screen. If someone is unable to understand what a tool-assisted speedrun is, that's their problem. And if speedrunners don't like tool-assisted speedruns, that's their problem as well. Screw them.

Posted: 6/30/2004 11:24 PM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

Mister DAN's proposed disclaimer may not have been the best, but I don't want to give the appearance that we're absolutely sure that the current disclaimer explains everything perfectly and can't be improved anymore, and that we're not open to suggestions, so I'm going to leave this open, and that way if other people want to make suggestions for how to improve the disclaimer, or if Mister DAN wants to respond to what we've said since his last post, they'll be able to.

Posted: 7/1/2004 1:42 AM

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devindotcom

Former player

Joined: 5/9/2004
Posts: 114

I personally would be fine with a disclaimer that was a little bit lengthier - like, instead of just saying tool-assisted, it could mention slowdown and savestates as well. I mean, there could be in large print: "This video is for entertainment purposes only. It is not an attempt at a single-segment speed run." And then, in smaller print, say "This video used x y and z, but did not use a b and c." And of course the url.

Posted: 7/1/2004 3:22 AM

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Dark_Mana

Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191

again, saying how these videos are accomplished will just make them less impressive to watch. no explanation should be required on how these were made. let people think they are fake if they want. its their fault if they cant see why people do this. anyways, if people insist on wanting a disclaimer at the start, then simply this would be fine. "this run is emulator recorded" it does'nt outright tell you how it was done or anything. just that it was recorded from an emulator. simple and direct. you start metioning slowing the game down, rerecords, auto fire buttons and people lose interest as they immedeatly think "hey i could do that if i tried"