Post by tmont

Posted: 5/3/2006 10:26 PM

Quote

Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

That's amusing that you're comparing two different games. I've said before (on page 2 of this thread and in another thread) that the American version could be done at least 5 minutes faster than the Japanese one (because of differences in the games). I've been watching the WIP and it's sloppy and flawed in many places. But it's a good effort for a first-timer, and we need a movie for the American version, too.

Posted: 5/3/2006 10:31 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Hey Arc, bite me. I'll compare a thousand times more if you'd like.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 5/3/2006 10:46 PM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Chill guys, I said I was going to do it again... And like Arc says, the games are very different. If you subtract the loading times and some of the keys Arc must get, he's likely nearly a minute ahead of me here.... Anyway, I'm six rooms away from finishing my first run of this game,,, and I'm having a hell of a time getting the dragon heads to be at the right height. I wanted to watch Arc's to see how he gets the dragonheads in the right spot,,, but the avi wont work for me (I have all the codecs this site recommends), and I cannot find the rom used. On a completely unrelated note, my msn is jack_the_second@hotmail.com. Well, once I get past this room I can finish up this run,,, and get started on the second. Ive watched what I have done through entirely, I should be able to save at LEAST two minutes on my second draft.

Posted: 5/4/2006 6:28 AM

Quote

JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I've always wondered if the games were really interestingly different enough to need two runs. By reading through the differences on Arc's submission, they don't seem to be to me. Of course, that leaves the question as to which version should be used. I'll stop commenting now.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 5/4/2006 8:28 AM

Quote

Brushy

Former player

Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587

Arc, it is amusing when you keep bitching about certain things (GnG for example). But I personally think that this run should obsolete Link no Bouken. Mainly because LnB has those long loading times which aren't nice to the viewers.

Posted: 5/4/2006 11:09 AM

Quote

Kyrsimys

Former player

Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland

Yes, Link no Bouken should be obsoleted by a run of AoL because AoL is the more familiar version for everyone except the Japanese. Arc's run is very high quality so perhaps it could still remain on the site, maybe as a note in the AoL description.

Posted: 5/4/2006 7:03 PM

Quote

tmont

Player (51)

Joined: 10/6/2005
Posts: 138
Location: Oregon

I don't think Adventure of Link should obsolete Link no Bouken (or whatever). They're very different, and not just because of the loading times. Enemies give you different experience points, you can't up+A as much due to your level upgrades resetting to the lowest ones, you have to hit things with your sword to pick them up, can't use fairy to get palace treasures, graphics are different, some palaces have more enemies, music is different. Some of these differences change the route drastically, so it's not like you're watching two runs and one of them is clearly inferior. There are a lot of dissimilar things between the games, and it's not like Arc's version is poorly played. I think it's cool to watch Link no Bouken, because I would never have had a chance to see how it's different from the English version otherwise.

Posted: 5/4/2006 8:06 PM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

My first run is done! http://fast.filespace.org/rising_tempest/Firstrun.fcm (right click, save as) Total time: 51:10 Re-records: 8229 It's far, far from perfect, but it was fun to make and now I know how to do this thing properly when I start my second run. It should be at least two minutes faster than this, I'll gain nearly a minute from just fixing the six count in palaces three and six, and another minute and some from better overall playing. I've also discovered the whirlwind slash move i use a couple times can actually hit some enemies more than once, this may save a few seconds as well. I'd like to watch Arc's run too to see if I get any more ideas, but it's being difficult to watch for me,,, I cannot find the rom used, the avi from archive.org is broken, and the bittorrent avi has no seeders. If anyone can help me here, I'd appreciate it. Well, enjoy my first run through this game.

Posted: 5/5/2006 1:16 AM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Here's a brief list I made for reference of "what to do better" in my next runthrough. Any further suggestions are welcome. Version two changes:: -Start --Check if walking out of trophy cave is faster than warping --Do the whole "get the hammer" run faster --Jump over Dairas in water of life cave --Minor optimizations -Palace Two --Kill Helmethead faster --Minor optimizations -Palace One --Kill Horsehead faster (bounce on head) --Very minor optimizations -Palace Three --Kill stalfos in first room, ignore blue ironknuckle. This should fix the six count --Kill mounted ironknuckle faster --Optimizations -Palace Four --Since I have to collect the red jar, check if Boots-Child-Reflect-Back is faster (might save 2/3 secs of overworld move) --Minor optimizations --Carock is not going down any faster -Palace Five --Kill orange ironknuckle in flute room, grab jar then faerie. --Kill Gooma faster? --Optimizations -Palace Six --Try to find a way around that one encounter --Ignore refill at start, wasn't needed --Ignore blue ironknuckle --Stalfos or Moa will drop my magic refill, no backtracking needed --Kill Barba faster? --More optimizations -Great Palace --Kill Thunderbird 3x as fast --Kill Dark Link faster --Rock out really hard

Posted: 5/5/2006 7:42 PM
(Edited: 5/8/2006 5:00 AM)

Quote

tmont

Player (51)

Joined: 10/6/2005
Posts: 138
Location: Oregon

Rising Tempest wrote:

I'd like to watch Arc's run too to see if I get any more ideas, but it's being difficult to watch for me,,, I cannot find the rom used, the avi from archive.org is broken, and the bittorrent avi has no seeders. If anyone can help me here, I'd appreciate it.

Here you go: removed I'll leave it there for a few days, but after that it'll be gone, since my school's webmaster seems to think that anything with a .avi extension is illegal. I suspect he's an idiot.

Posted: 5/5/2006 10:08 PM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Thanks for that, tmont. Is nice to have it in a working avi.

Posted: 5/10/2006 11:59 PM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Allright, It's back to work now,, I started the next run today. I haven't done much at all so far, but I think now I might be able to cut off nearly three minutes instead of two. The whirlwind slash move I mentioned in an earlier post seems to work on a lot more enemies than I initially thought, as long as you are close enough to them. To compare with my first run,,,, I lost around 30 frames for making a longer player name, because I felt like it. Gained twenty from exiting Zelda's palace to the left. I gained seven more frames from reducing lag in a two places (less projectiles on the screen). I gained about 200 frames on the first goriya I killed, from much more refined fighting techniques. I wont save this much on every enemy I come across, except for the next goriya whom I fought even worse in the first run. But if I even save 10-20 frames an enemy it's gonna add up pretty fast. Overall, I'm nearly 200 frames (3 secs) ahead of my first run and I'm about halfway through the jump cave. Oh yeah, here is the le file: http://fast.filespace.org/rising_tempest/RUN2WIP1.fcm (right click, save as)

Posted: 5/11/2006 5:57 AM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

http://fast.filespace.org/rising_tempest/RUN2WIP2.fcm (right click, save as) Now at entrance to second palace, ahead of first run by 1230 frames (about twenty seconds).

Posted: 5/11/2006 6:54 AM

Quote

tmont

Player (51)

Joined: 10/6/2005
Posts: 138
Location: Oregon

This looks much better than your old run (not that the old one didn't look good). If my eyes aren't deceiving me, it appears you're hitting the enemies 3-4 times with that crazy jump-whirl slash. I think the red axe-throwing things in Death Mountain take 11 hits, and you killed it in 3 (maybe, I wasn't keeping a close count). Very cool. A few comments/curiosities: -I'm glad you found a way to incorporate the glitch that sends the little beetle thing (lowder?) through the wall. -How come the first orange axe throwing-dog-thing (daria?) in Death Mountain didn't spawn? Looks very good so far.

Posted: 5/12/2006 3:17 AM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

I've beaten the first two palaces. http://fast.filespace.org/rising_tempest/RUN2WIP3.fcm (right click, save as) I'm nearly half a minute ahead of my old run now, and after the third palace i should be around fifty seconds ahead. Even with my low level of attack, I managed to kill helmethead before his final head fully emerged, nearly five times faster than my previous run. Most of the work on palace one was trying to find a way to kill that hammer bros. behind the locked door, so I don't have to waste two seconds waiting for him to jump, to fairy under him. After 100 or so re-records, I got it. Tmont, I'm not entirely sure why that orange daira didn't spawn. My theory at the moment, is that if you get to an enemy too fast while lots of enemies/projectiles are already on the screen, the game wont spawn it to reduce lag. This happens again in palace two in the handy glove room, and, in my older run, in palace six when I go out of my way to kill a stalfos (wont happen in this one, I promise). It's looking like I'll be up all night, so after a break to preserve my sanity, I might have some more stuff later tonight.

Posted: 5/12/2006 4:05 AM

Quote

xebra

Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203

You really have to wait around for the XP to finish tallying after beating a palace? I thought it would keep tallying up whenever you restarted?

Posted: 5/12/2006 5:59 AM

Quote

Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

xebra wrote:

You really have to wait around for the XP to finish tallying after beating a palace? I thought it would keep tallying up whenever you restarted?

I think this is true but I also think your EXP reverts to 0 when forced to rt so I think you would end up being forced to level up LIFE rather than ATTACK.

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 5/13/2006 6:03 AM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Here's some le palace three and four: http://fast.filespace.org/rising_tempest/RUN2WIP4.fcm (right click, save as)

Posted: 5/13/2006 11:10 PM
(Edited: 5/14/2006 12:40 PM)

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Earth shattering WIP! Could easily see the difference between this and your testrun. Im sure you will be done next week knowing how damn quickly you progress :)

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 5/14/2006 12:39 PM

Quote

Highness

Player (70)

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden

Awesome run so far. How much faster are you right now?

Posted: 8/24/2006 10:33 AM

Quote

Inzult

Active player (422)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Bump, for great justice. Someone set us up the Zelda 2 Improvement. I am without the internet right now. It's surprising how much free time I have without it. Since I was so bored, I worked a bit on Zelda 2. The above link is from power on until the end of Palace 1, using Rising Tempest's route and level up strategy (so I wouldn't have to figure out a strategy cold). Since I don't have the net at the moment, I couldn't download the current published run's fcm. I couldn't compare frame counts, so I can't be sure if I've done every room at least as fast as it, (especially before getting downstab) but I think I am about 5 seconds ahead at this point, based on the avi. I don't want to be basing a run off of an avi. As the movie goes along, I get better at killing 'big' enemeis quickly. I'm at the point now where I can kill most enemies without losing any forward momentum using the downstab. For all these reasons (and since I just downloaded Rising Tempest's .fcm to a floppy disk so I can make sure every room is at least as good as his) and since my Palace 2 boss is visibly slower, I'm stopping this test run here and starting a really real for real run. I'm just looking for a bit of feedback. Also, I've managed to get 600 extra exp in on the way to the hammer, and if I could get the drops from the small enemies to cooperate, I could feasibly get another 200 or so. I'm hoping for some ideas on how to incorporate this exp in the strategy, or else I'm going to try to find ways to avoid about 6 of those axe... guys... I know I can pass through the red ones while they're flashing, at least, with good timing. Okay, I shut up now. Any ideas/comments/places I messed up would be appreciated. ------------------ Edit: I've had a chance to crunch the numbers. I'm 420 frames ahead overall. 325 if you don't count the different (ie lack of) name. The places that I've done a room slower than Rising Tempest are as follows: Jump cave 1 and 2: I lost 3 frames on each of the goriyas. I know why this happened, and it was worrying me before I looked at the frame count. Should be a cinch to fix. Cave maze 2: I lost 8 frames. How did you make the Octorok not appear at the end, Tempest? Cave maze 5: I got the level-up Sword dialogue in this room, and Rising Tempest declined a magic level, so I'm not 100% sure. The numbers say I'm 157 frames behind, but I suspect it's more like 5 frames behind, ignoring the dialogues. Hammer cave 2: I lost a mystery 10 frames. I guess my fight was bad? Otherwise, I did just as well if not better in all of the other parts up to getting downstab and Fairy. Overall, I am ahead by 79 frames from when you can first control Link to this point. Palace 2 is where things start to pick up. Besides one or two stalfos, I manage to keep my momentum with downstab. I do lose 3 frames in the glove room, because I have to wait so I don't get hit by falling bricks in the next room. I lose one mystery frame in the room before the boss fight. My biggest loss is the palace 2 boss, where Rising Tempest gets him 20 frames ahead of me. I also lose 5 frames after getting the key, so I must not be getting it as far forward as possible. All in all, I gain 205 frames on Palace 2, and in Palace 1 I only gain frames, even on the boss. Therefore: My run can be 56 frames faster, based on just the numbers. I suspect I can kill a few Stalfos in Palace 2 a little better. And who knows what other minor optimizations I might come across. So, the prospect of starting over is a bit of a bummer, now that I see there's only a few small blips compared to the published run. But it will amount to about a second. And since I know it's there, I don't really have a choice, I think. I'll start when I figure out what I'm doing about the extra exp. I shut up now.

Posted: 8/25/2006 12:09 AM

Quote

Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Good Luck. I was actually planning to improve on this somewhere along the line (need to at least finish NES Open first though), so, I don't mind helping out if you want. If not, make sure you do a good job so I don't end up making my third version of this and obsolete it :P Cave maze 2: I lost 8 frames. How did you make the Octorok not appear at the end, Tempest? It's there in my run, I just jumped over it. You have a one frame window of opportunity to make this jump though. Keep trying, and you'll eventually get it. Boss two, if I remember correctly. Was Whirl-slash (3 hits), downstab (seven times, any more and the second helmet would hit you), two more whirl-slashes to finish him. I tried a few different methods, this one seemed fastest. All my key grabs can be improved, that's at least a second there. A few little fuck-ups I made along the way, corrected, might make manipulating encouters in the very end of the game not take as long, this could save up to five seconds. I'll put more ideas here when I stop being lazy. Also, if you are in fact going to do this, give the character a name. It's really just a cosmetic thing and no one will hold the 30-some frames lost against you. (even if it is just something uncreative like "Link") Now, I'm off to get McWendy's, when I get back I'll watch your test run and tell you what I think. EDIT: In the future, try using one of the hosting sites in the TASvideos FAQ. Rapidshit is ass.

Posted: 8/25/2006 3:47 AM

Quote

Inzult

Active player (422)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Rising Tempest wrote:

EDIT: In the future, try using one of the hosting sites in the TASvideos FAQ. Rapidshit is ass.

Normally I would just use my webspace, but that's tricky when your internet's acting up. I am, however, piggybacking off a neigbour at the moment. In the spirit of stolen internet: here's the WIP not on rapidshare. Thanks for the pointers on Helmethead and the octorok. I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out. I did manage to improve the key grab in palace 1 as well... Also, I know you were planning on getting back to this, but I figured you were busy with Goldeneye or some such, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I have no real desire to see my name on the front page, though, I just want an amazing run. I don't care who does it ;D edit: I can't figure out a way to use the extra exp on the way to get the hammer that makes sense. My sword levels always fall behind the current run. Even if I can squeeze 1000 exp on the way to level my sword again, the current exp strategy makes more sense. So off to figure out how to skip 6 darias.

Posted: 8/30/2006 1:54 PM

Quote

Inzult

Active player (422)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

I'm done getting the hammer, about 7 and a half seconds fater than the published run. Here's the hammer run, I hope you enjoy it. Improvements to be done: Skip the 2 goriyas in the jump cave (stun & run) saves ~50 frames 32 frames are lost on the overworld due to a bad luck. Points can be made up on small enemies, or switching which darias I skip. Find out how many frames waiting in the cave it takes to get a different enemy group. (edit: I squeezed 20 frames out of this.) Save 10 frames by entering the door to the bridge guy's house one frame later. If you wait the extra frame, Link spawns much farther left. Possible improvements: Reduce lag in the room with the 2 spear guys. Figure out a way to get past the octorok staircase. Reduce lag in this room by killing the first 3 octoroks. Consider jumping over one (or two) extra orange dairas, and kill red ones so I don't have to jump over axes. If that's slower, try to manipulate fewer axes to jump over. Actually test if stabbing the wall on an up elevator saves time. I'm not sure if it does, but I did try it to see if it works... (edit: I'm an idiot. You can walk while the elevator goes up. I knew that already. To fix.) Might be abe to improve a few fights. Like the red daria in the actual cave with the hammer. Kill it sooner so I don't have to wait for the exp. So, I guess I'll go over it again, and iron a few things out, but this is pretty much how things will look. If any of you guys have any ideas, I'd love to hear them.