I am fairly new to the site. I found out about TAS roughly about 8 months ago and registered for this forum just a bit more than a month.
I've read thru most (if not all) of the tricks and faq/info pages and understand how to slow down or speed up the game and also re-recording and frame advance. I've tried to make some recordings (not necessary speedruns) just to get a hang of how to make a TAS.
I started with Super Mario Bros (NES, PRG0) because that's the game I am very familiar with and love. And I have no trouble playing on a real NES or emulator to get to the so-called minus world.
I found that I have trouble performing many of the tricks mentioned in the tricks page (like wall jump, or jump into solid wall)
I think I might have picked the wrong game.... but exactly how do you perform those tricks?
It would be nice if there's a fool-proof tutorial showing a TAS newbie how to do it.
Is there such a tutorial in existence ?
Thanks!
In a wall jump you need an exact pixel height, so it's basically trial and error, same with going into a wall, but I believe going inside a wall is even harder, maybe you should start with something a little bit easier.
The easiest way to learn is probably to download an existing run of that game where the trick is done and watch it with "show controller input" turned on with the comma button.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
The easiest way to learn is probably to download an existing run of that game where the trick is done and watch it with "show controller input" turned on with the comma button.
I've done this already.
When I watch the replay of the existing TAS, it just seems that it magically works.
I even slow it down to 5% and 1% and I couldn't see what's the key to do it.
TASing isn't teachable because outside of the basic concepts, each one is completely different, and what works on one game may fail on any other game.
For example, to wall jump in SMB1/2j, you have to hit the wall exactly at a 16x16 tile boundary, and you only have like one frame to hit A and jump from there (else you will just fall down). This is really one of the more simple tricks, as I can do it about 25-30% of the time when playing a realtime game. That's the same trick that leads to the easy way to get to world 36 (as Super Mario at the end of 1-2, duck and jump, aiming to hit the bottom of the brick directly below the ceiling, and if you did it right, Mario will think he's standing on the ground for a frame, and since he automatically stands up from his duck, the wall-ejection code then pulls him in).
The easiest way to learn is probably to download an existing run of that game where the trick is done and watch it with "show controller input" turned on with the comma button.
I've done this already.
When I watch the replay of the existing TAS, it just seems that it magically works.
I even slow it down to 5% and 1% and I couldn't see what's the key to do it.
Luke's version of FCEU even show the buttons in the NES controller style, which is nice.
I can see the inputs alright, does the trick depens on which frame you must press the jump & forward buttons ? And do you have to use frame advance to do it ?
I can see the inputs alright, does the trick depens on which frame you must press the jump & forward buttons ? And do you have to use frame advance to do it ?
Tricks used in TASes can depend on a huge number of things. You may have to press a button in a certain frame. Your character may have to be travelling at a specific speed. Sometimes you need the background to have scrolled a specific distance. Sometimes whether or not you killed an enemy two seconds ago will determine if a trick will work or not (E.g., the enemy chases you down and ends up blocking the path you want to take.)
The reason that recording emulators work is that if you give the emulator the exact same input each time, you always get the exact same results. If you have all of the numbers in the game right--the right height of the jump, the right distance from the target, etc., the trick will work every time. If something is off, it might not.
In some scenarios, it's actually possible to be too fast. For instance, if you hit a thief at the first possible moment in Golden Axe, you may knock the thief so far away that you lose frames trying to get a follow up attack to connect. If you wait a frame or two more, the thief runs far enough on screen that you can quickly hit him twice without him being knocked out of range.
Theoretically, you could do all tricks in any TAS at 100% speed. However, many tricks used in TASes need several button presses, each during a precise 1/60th of a second. Unless you have reflexes that would make comic book superheroes like The Flash jealous, using frame advance will make it much easier to hit the right buttons during the right 1/60th of a second. Personally, unless there's at least a half-second stretch of time where I can just hold an input or I can't do anything at all--e.g., walking across an empty screen, waiting for the screen to fade out after the end of the level, etc.), I do all of my TAS work in frame advance mode.
Oh, and if you haven't guessed by now, while there are many tools that can be used while making a TAS, two of the most powerful tools of all are determination and patience.
Oh, and if you haven't guessed by now, while there are many tools that can be used while making a TAS, two of the most powerful tools of all are determination and patience.
Thank you to all that have replied!
I guess there's no TAS tutorial in existence.
I disagree with the statement that TAS can't be taught. It's just not easy, but not impossible.
In a TAS, I believe one can give instructions telling the user on how to do certain things (say a wall jump in SMB1), however, the user/reader will just have to try it many many times to get it working. It's the same old practice-makes-perfect saying.
If you give all of the requirements for a certain trick and maybe some hints on how to perform it, one -- with lots of practice and may be luck -- should be able to accomplish it.
I remember that in order to jump thru the wall in SMB1 level 1-2 to access world -1, it takes lots of practice to order to do it right the first time. After that, with practice, one can do it quite easily.
I think the thing that lacks now is such a TAS tutorial giving info or instructions to do certain tricks.
I still can't do that wall jump anywhere in SMB1 (I can only do that jump-thru-wall-to-minus-world). But in many of the SMB1 TAS, I've seen that it can be done. If the key is to jump at certain frame, at certain speed or height. In the TAS faq, the instructions can tell the user the requirements for the trick. Of course, it would be helpful to include information on how to identify which frame, and how to identify pixel-height.
Once a newbie gets a hang of how many of the tricks are done, they can probably work out their own way of doing TASs.
Any of the TAS-experienced/experts reading this up for writing such a TAS tutorial ?
I am just using SMB1's wall jump as an example, feel free to use any trick in any game as teaching examples.
You cannot walljump anywhere you like. As someone said already, you have to hit a very specific point in the wall. Thus it doesn't depend on which frame you jump or anything like that, but which part of the wall you hit. When you succeed, you will see mario "grabbing" the wall for a frame before droping down.
I've often toyed with the idea of modifying the SMB graphics to remove the actual graphics, replacing them with markers so that one can more easily determine exactly where to hit the wall. It has to be on a 16 pixel boundary, however.
I've often toyed with the idea of modifying the SMB graphics to remove the actual graphics, replacing them with markers so that one can more easily determine exactly where to hit the wall. It has to be on a 16 pixel boundary, however.
I've read about 16 pixel boundary few times already.
Exactly how do you identify that? Where do you start counting ?
It would be nice if you inclue a picture for example.
Thanks!
Well, think of this - a coin block is one such 16x16 tile, so the boundary is either the line above the block, or the last line of the block. It shouldn't be too hard to build an accurate grid from that - it may help you to get a pixel-accurate map and build a grid on top of it. The animation on Bisqwit's site is accurate.
Here are a few examples - the extra lines I've drawn show the extended "floor" that you have to aim for. You also have to be fully hugging the wall - if you're one pixel away, you will miss the wall.
Not all of these floors are technically possible to reach, but I marked them anyway because were one somehow able to get Mario to hit the wall there, a walljump would still be possible.
LocalH, thank you very much for the detailed explanation with screenshots.
I think info and pictures like these are excellent material for a TAS tutorial.
At least now, I have something to practice on, to aim for.
Thanks again!
ming, keep in mind that to perform tricks like these, frame advance is pretty much required. Of course, frame advance makes the trial-and-error process much easier, since you can keep perfect track on what frame you hit the wall, or which frames you hold jump etc etc.
ming, keep in mind that to perform tricks like these, frame advance is pretty much required. Of course, frame advance makes the trial-and-error process much easier, since you can keep perfect track on what frame you hit the wall, or which frames you hold jump etc etc.
Fabian, thanks for the tip. I will try it out.
BTW, I love the TAS that you and JXQ did for superdemoworld tlc 120 exits.
LocalH, thank you very much for the detailed explanation with screenshots.
I think info and pictures like these are excellent material for a TAS tutorial.
They're nice material for a Super Mario Bros. TAS tutorial. However, this trick won't work in most games at all. Many of the tricks you need to do a TAS are extremely game specific.
Yeah, that trick pretty much works the same in SMB2j, not at all in SMB2USA (that I know of), and it works less often in SMB3 (but nonetheles it is possible to walljump in SMB3).
Not all of these floors are technically possible to reach, but I marked them anyway because were one somehow able to get Mario to hit the wall there, a walljump would still be possible.
