I haven't messed around with it much, but I found out something new. New to me, at least. It seems that when you use Jeff's SPY command, it actually has a chance to steal an item (confirmed by starmen.net and other faqs). This means it would be MUCH easier to manipulate the Sword of Kings because it would be very easy to just Spy it on the right time and steal it, instead of trying to get it perfectly at the end of the battle.
I know that some other things in the game could be done this way with enough luck, such as the Broken Antenna (turns into jeff's ultimate weapon, there was huge controversy over this item way back in the days cause the guide had a mis-print or something). I need to look at an item list, but some other monsters in the game have some pretty sweet, rare stuff. The bionic kraken drops the gutsy bat which would be awesome too. The SPY command would make getting things like PSI caramels and such much easier too, which could speed up a TAS.
Update: The list of useful steals seems much smaller than I thought. Up until Deep Darkness, the only useful steals would be PSI caramels or Big Bottle Rockets. Mildly useful I suppose. The first great item you can steal is Multi-Bottle Rockets from Even Slimer Little Pile, but by that time you can also buy them. Might save time/money stealing them though. Wooley Shambler also drops them in Winters. And then of course, Starman Super drops Sword of Kings. And actually, other than more caramels or some other junk, that's pretty much it. Guess it's not as useful as I thought. Just a one-trick pony :(
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
I haven't messed around with it much, but I found out something new. New to me, at least. It seems that when you use Jeff's SPY command, it actually has a chance to steal an item (confirmed by starmen.net and other faqs). This means it would be MUCH easier to manipulate the Sword of Kings because it would be very easy to just Spy it on the right time and steal it, instead of trying to get it perfectly at the end of the battle.
This would be useless in a tas, since tas's are supposed to be perfect. Also, I'm not sure getting the sok would be worth it since it seems Poo would be constantly using PK, unless doing criticals with an sok would do more damage.
As I recall, when you spy you actually are just grabbing what you'd get at the end of the battle anyway. I think that's what I've read about using SPY.
Now that we know we can (theoretically) summon monsters to us with ease some degree of leveling should be considered. The Sword of Kings grants Poo 30 more attack power and the ability to never miss (hey, that might be helpful) if I remember correctly. I don't know how far PSI can take us... unless bosses can be instantly killed by them... I think it was Flash that did the instant K.O. wasn't it? Even then, I'd be surprised if bosses could be killed by it.
Hell, for that matter, I'm still not buying into all the bosses being able to be put to sleep. I've done a lowest level challenge of Earthbound and I couldn't get most bosses to sleep. I easily got all of Onetts bosses to sleep but after that point, they just seemed to be immune.
There are some very fast leveling spots in the game that I'm sure could be exploited. The worms that reside in both deserts. Find a spawn zone and green swirl win the battle (pretty sure in the worms case that's always an instant kill) a few times.
Considering we wouldn't really have to go out of our way to find a worm in either desert they would undoubtedly save time... I'm still on the fence about every other enemy though. Poo's sword isn't just rare, it's powerful, so a Starman Super might have to be spanked.
Guess it all depends on how strong our PSI really is... and can a short spurt of leveling make our SMAAASH! attacks more worthwhile time wise? So many things to test and consider... ha ha... still the main reason I don't want to undertake this TAS.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
About the boss-sleep/flash/paralysis thing, I haven't proved it beyond Twoson yet (mondo mole can be slept no problem). As far as it goes though, it's worked so far. Normally when slept they have a chance to wake up on their turn and again when you bash them. However I was able to keep Titanic Ant asleep for 20 rounds while I beat him to death.
Speaking of Titanic Ant and 20 rounds... Wren brings up a good point. At first I was against any kind of non-required fights because the game can in theory be beaten without every fighting a random battle. But if you fight ONLY the required fights all the way up to Titanic Ant, you'll only be level 5 (gaining levels 6-8 upon his death, and PSI Rockin). Problem is, with the Tee-Ball Bat (drugstore onett) and level 5 (or was it four?), you can only do around 10-13 damage per hit (45 smash). This of course is a little random because of how much your stats grow on levelup.
The point is, Titanic Ant has 245 HP and at 10~hp bash, that's 20+ rounds (plus the 2 ants you gotta kill). Or at least, 8 SMAAASH's (6 for the boss, 1 per little ant). But what if you were level 8 with PSI rockin? That'd kill the baby ants in one shot and do 50-100 dmg on Titanic Ant. Two Rockin's + 2 Smaaash = WIN.
But the hard part of planning is... is it faster to suffer 8-20 rounds to bash him to pieces at level 4, or is it better to grab some xp in fights and take him out super fast? Leveling can be plenty slow but then again, 3 monsters in battle is really slow too. They each have to take their turn and that slows it down poorly. Plus I'm not positive a 45 dmg SMASH could OHKO a black antoid.
I think that it's possible to Flash-KO the bosses, or at least some of them, but only probably a very small chance. I was reading on Starmen.net and something refered to Flash-KO on (Edit) the Dalaam Thunder & Lightning Boss. So perhaps, ever so unlikely, the bosses could be wiped out effortlessly. At the very least, it'd be super easy to keep them Paralyzed (can't attack, just PSI and some other commands) which could help out. I'd worry that if a Flash-KO is possible on most bosses, people would complain that it'd be too boring. But if that's the case, I refer you to the published NES Final Fantasy with the last several bosses being OHKO'd. :-P
I think what it really boils down to is anyone doing a serious TAS would have a ton of planning to do, but then again any great TAS has that even the seemingly non-deep games (I never would have expected so much work to go into a Mega Man TAS)
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
Stats gained from leveling can easily be manipulated. I have proven so in my attempt I made a long while ago. It's all dependent on randomness which is manipulated by pressing B or moving in the menu before attacking. The stats gained are "fixed", and by fixed I mean that you have an array of stats possible to gain, and can't gain EVERYTHING at maximum always, but it's still fairly easy to manipulate what you want and how much.
And if bosses can get OHKOed, I think it'd make this TAS a lot easier. You practicaly wouldn't need any leveling since you can theoretically have a fightless run (except mandatory ones).
This is starting to be less intimidating. I'm more and more re-considering doing this TAS after I finish Illusion of Gaia 100%.
Regarding leveling up to level 8, I think this would take far more time than doing 20 rounds against the ant. The enemies in Onett and the Ant Cave don't really provide a ton of experience, and how long could the battle with the ant take? Five minutes at most? If so, I'm not sure if you could power level from 5 to 8 in less than five minutes.
If you surprise one of the little black ants throughout the cave, do you get an instant victory? If so, then you might be able to gain enough levels quickly.
Once you do get PSI rockin' though, I don't think you'll need to level up at all the rest of the game. Even against later enemies, the first PSI rockin' attack does around 100 hit points. And of course, if you really can put every boss to sleep or flash them to death, then gaining levels is a waste of time (unless you need speed boosts to ensure that a boss won't kill your entire party in one hit).
Regarding leveling up to level 8, I think this would take far more time than doing 20 rounds against the ant. The enemies in Onett and the Ant Cave don't really provide a ton of experience, and how long could the battle with the ant take? Five minutes at most? If so, I'm not sure if you could power level from 5 to 8 in less than five minutes.
There are two particular enemies that are quite "cool" for leveling up. You have the Skate Punk and the Black Antoid who can "call for help" and bring another enemy in the battle, thus gaining more exp. for that battle. Calling for help can also be easily manipulated since it's one of their "attack" moves.
The Skate Punk can call either a Pogo Punk or a Yes Man Junior, which give respectively 15 and 13 exp. The Skate Punk himself gives 12 exp. Pogo Punk has 35 HP and Yes Man Junior has 33 HP. They can only be fought before Frank though.
The Black Antoid can call another Black Antoid into the battle. Each one gives 37 exp and has 34 HP. These can be a little tricky though, since they can do quite a lot of damage if not manipulated correctly. Manipulating many of them at the same time is quite difficult also. However they can use Lifeup α, which is probably useless since they probably die in one hit.
SGreenwell wrote:
If you surprise one of the little black ants throughout the cave, do you get an instant victory? If so, then you might be able to gain enough levels quickly.
It depends on your level (or maybe your attack?). But surprising an enemy from behind before beating the boss is almost impossible unless you've just got out of a fight and still "invincible/invisible".
After more testing I think I was looking at this the wrong way. Sure you can pretty much force sleep/etc on a boss, but really it's usually not even necessary. For example, I remember that the previous post and WIP posted here mentioned that they needed level 18 to fight mondo mole (for PSI Flash). I beat him around level 10~12 I believe (with paula at 1). It was incredibly easy to manipulate the boss into using Offense Up (Edit: or was it Def Down? I Can't remember) every single turn, so it never even mattered about defense or dodging or sleeping or paralysis or whatever. That's great!
I beat the 3rd boss, the Triolage Sponge (whatever it's called) at level 15~ with everyone, and noticed something even better. PSI Fire (alpha) did around 90~ damage, and it's weak to that I believe. But even better than that, PSI Thunder did around 150! It was quite fun to manipulate the battle to keep everyone alive (no healing or defense items). It only took a few rounds, and in the end everyone was down to 13 or less HP (paula at 1). PSI Thunder and Rockin really messed him up bigtime. As far as I can tell, anything that can take damage takes 100% damage from thunder, and the later thunders hit for 2-4 shots (was it more? 6?). This could be manipulated to be extremely powerful.
So yeah, if anyone starts a runthrough, don't be afraid of the bare minimum levels. And usually it's faster to spend your turns causing damage rather than worrying about status effects (even if you could land them 100% with manipulation). I was also toying with the idea of keeping everyone except ness (or ness paula, maybe later poo) dead. Basically kill off jeff. He's really not that useful unless you're spending his turn using a rocket or bazooka and as far as I know those aren't affected by his level. It wastes a lot of time giving him commands that are pretty much near worthless. This would also give more xp to the rest of the team thus leveling them faster and getting them better stats/psi sooner. Poor jeff really got the short end of the stick (not counting rockets).
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
Yeah but leaving Jeff dead would ruin the experience, because everything will turn red! It's just not pretty and I think it would ruin the experience of watching such a TAS. I strongly suggest leaving him alive.
Joined: 4/21/2005
Posts: 32
Location: Georgia, USA
I agree about killing Jeff off ruining the experience; if his turns would really be that worthless (and given how comparably powerful Bottle Rockets are, I don't think they would be), you could always just have him defend or bash, since Jeff can't SMAAAASH anyway and manipulation wouldn't be necessary.
As far as PSI Flash goes, I'm pretty sure Thunder and Storm can be killed with it, and I know for a fact Kraken (in the Sea between Toto and Scaraba) can be. Most bosses on Starmen's EBDB list a 50%-75% chance of success for Flash, but I'm not sure how many (if any) of them can actually be killed by it, or just made to start crying or what have you.
Joined: 4/21/2005
Posts: 32
Location: Georgia, USA
Pyrolistical wrote:
If his turns are wasted them, then in my opinion I don't see it as a speed run at all.
Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you; however, in this case, there is the aesthetic aspect to consider. The game just looks, for lack of a better term, nicer if all characters are left alive.
I suppose that if it was all about speed and nothing about entertainment and looks, kill Jeff.
But since it's all about the art, keeping Jeff alive would paint a much cleaner, better picture.
My $0.02 from the ATM anyway.
I initially agreed with Halamantariel, but then i realised that it's just different colors, and we'd probably get used to it, much like all the other tas's (zelda 3 comes to mind). The only thing is that it's slightly harder to read, but reading text isn't the point of a tas anyway. Also, we can do a no death run (or whatever), but it'd be helpful to see in what other cases death is faster.
I don't see how aesthetics has to do with a site that only leet gamers download stuff from, though (minus possibly recommended star videos). If anything, having tons of unnecessary moves cancels out the "bad" in the red skins. It would even seem more interesting to see what one can do without a third person (fourth? man I forget this game), for any type of viewer, not just the leet gamers, for lack of a better phrase. Having the red stuff is a constant reminder that someone in the party is dead, which would make me anticipate the next battle, to see what will be done, in terms of sheer speed, and "challenge" of having a person dead. I'm sure there are "complete the game with two/three characters" guides out there, so the red's the same stuff those guide followers would be viewing, if they ran such a game for themselves.
I seriously do not expect Jeff to lose time in the long run. His bottle rockets can do wonders to many bosses in the game and, by the looks of it, we can probably avoid all random battles.
Take the Circus Tent for example:
If he can not be one-hit-knocked-out by the rest of the team Jeff can OHKO him with his Big Bottle Rocket regardless of his level.
Still, until we have a person test running this it's hard to say what will or won't save time. Personally I think Jeff should remain alive. Not just because the red sucks but also because he is a powerhouse if the boss in question can not be killed instantly.
Also, if Jeff can be used to take even 2 or 3 bosses down I think it would save on time as opposed to him defending or whatnot on every other boss in the game. Reviving takes too long and isn't really an option for the most part.
Personally I think Poo will be the weakest link in this situation... he always kinda held me back in my lowest level run, actually.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Personally I think Poo will be the weakest link in this situation... he always kinda held me back in my lowest level run, actually.
I disagree... PSI Starstorm is quite powerful, and he has a few powerful offensive PSIs (mainly Freeze). He's not useless ... a lot less useless than Jeff.
Oh and he can SMAAAASH! too...
Joined: 4/21/2005
Posts: 32
Location: Georgia, USA
Wren's thoughts on Jeff are spot on: Big Bottle Rockets (and later, Multi-Bottle Rockets) can do a number on most bosses. One scenario in which I could justify killing Jeff is the battle against Carbon Dog/Diamond Dog, as one MBR can take Carbon Dog out, Jeff would be killed by Diamond Dog's power shield, and the battle can continue without him. Of course, that also begs the question as to whether or not reviving Jeff, having him Neutralizer the shield away, and firing another MBR would be faster than proceeding with PSI attacks from Ness, Paula, and Poo. But I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it :)
I suppose that if it was all about speed and nothing about entertainment and looks, kill Jeff.
But since it's all about the art, keeping Jeff alive would paint a much cleaner, better picture.
My $0.02 from the ATM anyway.
I don't understand how speed isn't entertainment. I've seen so many comments on how you should "sacrifice some speed for entertainment". I think anything that sacrifices speed becomes less entertaining.
