I don't really have anything important to say in response to that other than it was long. The average word length was 5.0594369134515119916579770594369 letters. I did not include the links in that.
And even with all those categores I see no reason to take speed out. Can you give me a (short) reason why speed should not be a goal in nearly all movies? Many movies here aim for all items collected, or no death, or whatever, but they still try to go as fast as possible with these constraints. Maybe I missed something. Probably, since I was counting letters :P
You gave the example of shows most programming errors without regards for time, but I think it likely that the runner would try to show all of the programming errors as fast as possible. Like, show every glitch known in that game, but do it as fast as possible. I just said the same thing twice.
And xebra, your avatar really bothers me. Don't worry about it, just thought I'd let you know.
I would have written a shorter post but I didn't have the time. I hope it's comprehensive if not concise. I barfed it out over a period of a couple hours' research, reflection, and rewriting.
You have no reason to say "take speed out"; that is a non-sequitur. That is not at all what I wanted to say, and I'd like to kindly encourage you to actually read and comprehend material before attempting to critique it (that being the reason why I wrote it at all), or someday I might rewrite it. Again, I must respectfully say that although I doubt that you mean to, you're perpetuating the cycle by focusing myopically on one single variable, akin to missing the forest for the trees.
A short reason why the variables of constraints should be arbitrary, is because it's art. It's almost "just because". Speed is always a factor simply out of common sense but it may be demoted in priority to mere expediency.
There will be a day when we've done dozens of different kinds of runs on Super Mario Bros and still someone's thinking of new ones. Much of that will simply be a matter of dropping or changing arbitrary assumptions, such as the "no B button" run. It's all about changing perspective.
However, they were instead accepted, since they sacrifice unecessary speed for a very necessary bump in entertainment. That is the difference.
You still don't seem to understand the difference between the terms "main" and "only".
I have repeated over and over that speed is the *main* objective of these runs. I have not said it's the *only* objective. "Main objective" means that in the vast majority of cases (probably about 300 currently published movies) speed is the main deciding factor on acceptation/rejection/obsoletion. There may be a few cases (perhaps about 10 of them) where entertainment has surpassed speed in the judgement, but such few cases hardly make entertainment the *main* judging category over speed. If 300 movies have been judged acceptable because of their speed and 10 movies because of their entertainment, I would say the balance goes quite heavily to the speed side.
The exceptions simply mean that the rules are not rigid. Although speed is the main objective, that isn't a rigid rule, but it can *sometimes* be overridden by another objective. However, such exceptions do not make the rule false, just a bit flexible. I don't see any problem with this.
On topic: No, because otherwise the Gradius movies on the site should be obsoleted by faster submissions. However, Bisqwit has already stated that he isn't so sure that this is the best idea, since it isn't going to be any more entertaining than the original.
The gradius movies are exceptions because of their very nature. However, there are 3 gradius movies and they hardly overweight 300 speed-oriented movies. I don't see any problem in having such exceptions.
If it was a difference of 2000 frames, then yes, it should be obsoleted. However, if it was 2000 frames of nothing but standing around instead of passing the time doing entertaining things, a lot of people would complain/vote 'meh', because who wants to watch a boring movie, even if it's faster? If it was the difference between a XXX2 frame movie that was jaw droppingly cool versus an XXX0 that was faster but too boring to watch, I don't think it would be obsoleted. I do think that someone would eventually make the improvement with the necessary cool tricks, and that would end in obsoletion/evolution.
You might not notice it, but you yourself are proving my point.
You are basically saying that yes, if someone submitted a movie which was around 2000 frames faster, it would definitely be accepted. However, if two movies around 2000 frames faster (give or take a few frames) were submitted, the more entertaining one would be chosen. And that's exactly the point: Speed is the main deciding category (about 2000 frames faster is a *lot* and *definitely* would be published) and then the entertainment is a secondary category (sacrificing 0.1% of the speedup for entertainment is hardly a *main* deciding factor compared to the overall speedup of about 2000 frames).
No, a couple of exceptions do not make the rule false. They are just exceptions.
Right, but a couple of exceptions definitely stand to contest naming these movies as 'speedruns'. If we start hosting even ONE nonspeedrun on a speedrun website, then what is next?
That argument is just fallacious. A few exceptions do not mean that speed is not the *main* objective of the majority of the movies.
The Rygar -movie- has been granted a special exception
I don't understand why this exception was given: the movie should be completed as per the rules of the submission queue. Otherwise, we shouldn't turn back other submissions that don't complete themselves.
I don't see any reason why such an exception couldn't be granted. The rules are not rigid. We are humans, not machines nor lawyers.
dtm: I'm confused. Was that written to be long and wordy just to make fun of the people arguing here? Or was it serious?
Zurreco: Either one is fine with me, as long as elbows are allowed. Elbows rock.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Warp: Let's settle this with a coin-toss. Heads: I win. Tails: you lose.
I think that speed is subordinate to entertainment, and I'm trying to tell you that speed isn't the main focus of these movies in and of itself, but part of a main focus, which is entertainment. I'm not saying speed isn't a very important part of what we do here; I'm saying that speed plays a role in an even bigger pizza.
As for the exceptions: I don't understand how you can say that we are a site focusing _,.-~*'`mainly`'*~-.,_ on speed, and yet we host a bunch of movies that do not focus on speed. dan_ said that he counted something like 13 non-speed oriented movies on the site, which means that 13/300+ movies aren't conforming to what you claim the site focuses on. Therefore, I don't see why these movies aren't considered a different set of demonstrations on the site. If we host a movie that is 10% slower than optimal because it shows off some cool stuff, why don't we host a speedrun that is 20% slower but shows the skill of a runner? I don't see how you can have a site called 'Tool Assisted Speedruns' and host a bunch of non-speed oriented movies. It's like making a site called "All Things Purple" and having a lot of blue all around.
e:
Truncated: Can Warp and I tie our left hands to eachother, and then tuck in our right arms and have a no-hiding elbow fight? That would be rad. Also, we should set the elbows on fire and cover the other person's face in a thin layer of wax, so that every successful hit creates a pool of hot wax to add to the fun. Wheeee!
In the same spirit as xebra's earlier post, I'd like to say that I didn't read this whole thread (and I'm serious too), but it seems pretty clear to me that dtm is the winner here, and the other arguers are, well, not winners.
I don't know if you're arguing of the topic of #nesvideos or of the name TAS or of the color of the crescent moon.
TAS stands for tool-assisted speedruns, #nesvideos is the IRC channel of TASvideos, and TASvideos is a site for tool-assisted console game movies, most of them being also speedruns.
Ps:
> The average word length was 5.0594369134515119916579770594369 letters. I did not include the links in that.
That sequence of decimals comes suspiciously close to that of 2^(1/12).
As for the exceptions: I don't understand how you can say that we are a site focusing _,.-~*'`mainly`'*~-.,_ on speed, and yet we host a bunch of movies that do not focus on speed. dan_ said that he counted something like 13 non-speed oriented movies on the site, which means that 13/300+ movies aren't conforming to what you claim the site focuses on.
This is getting quite hilarious. You are just proving my point. From 313 currently published movies only 13 have speed as a secondary objective. Which means that 300 do have speed as their principal objective.
300 speed, 13 entertainment. Make the math. Which one is the prevalent main objective of these runs?
You are not comfortable with the word "speed" because in a whopping 4% of the published movies speed is not the main deciding factor for publication (while in the remaining 96% it is).
Besides, even if in 13 movies speed is not the *main* factor, it *is* a factor nonetheless, and thus qualify for being termed as "speedruns". There's nothing *wrong* in calling them "speedruns" because they are.
I believe it was John Locke that said the most perfidious evil is rule by majority. Let not even a vast preponderance of speed oriented movies ruin the true vision of this site! We seek to entertain, nothing more, nothing less.
Speaking of pizza ...
You are stranded on a desert island with a Domino's Pizza that can only make pizzas with two toppings. What are the two toppings?
For me it's pepperoni and breakfast bacon.
