3 hours and level 12? O.o
Holy crap, man, that's some craziness going on right there. It looks awesome. Does that poof animation from smoke bomb and the other items affect the outcome of the Slot?
Other than that, looking GREAT. I can't wait to see the rest of this.
Both could obviously be improved if someone were to start a third run after both of these are complete. This comparison stuff is really great for such a third run, even. But here are just some questions, anyway.
Would it be faster in Catastrophe's run to not run into the mansion right after he buys the sprint shoes, and rather wait until he does the "slip past the guard via menu" trick, and go in the back way, like erim? There are definitely monsters to take into consideration, but you would also have access to more treasure chests than. This is all, of course, if any of those other treasures are needed. There is one secret room that erim didn't go into. I believe it even contains a ribbon. erim didn't even get some of (or any, I forget) the chests Cata did. Also, in erim's run, in the same mansion after Celes is obtained, do you have to go back down the stairwell into the monster area? Or can you go out the front door and do the slip past the guard trick again (possibly multiple times, since I think there was some other guard needing to get past)? Might be faster than running into more monsters. Lots of questions, though it all comes down to which treasures are needed (and in the fastest run possibly, Celes wouldn't join using the normal method).
All I can say besides this is, the comparison movie would be so interesting if it could somehow display room by room, battle by battle comparisons. Like even if one person got ahead of the other, the next scene/battle/room would be synched up again. But that's just asking for the impossible. I'm sure there's a way to do that manually (like checking the amount of frames per situation in an emulator).
Would it be faster in Catastrophe's run to not run into the mansion right after he buys the sprint shoes, and rather wait until he does the "slip past the guard via menu" trick, and go in the back way, like erim?
Yes. Why though? I've demonstrated that those treasures are completely unnecessary.
Also, in erim's run, in the same mansion after Celes is obtained, do you have to go back down the stairwell into the monster area?
You must, try to head back the other way and you will get a dialogue telling saying you're going the wrong way.
fastest run possibly, Celes wouldn't join using the normal method).
I personally believe that getting Celes is overall quicker, since you need to consider the fact that you'll have Kutan for the World of Ruin. I somehow have a feeling(don't ask me what) that there may be things that we're over-looking which could improve Kutan just that much to make skipping Celes worthwhile.
All I can say besides this is, the comparison movie would be so interesting if it could somehow display room by room, battle by battle comparisons
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Jyzero wrote:
This is strange indeed. I used the Dragon in the little sketch glitch video I posted in the other thread and it worked. Do you have a savestate at that point ?
I don't have a save state there because I've started working on my real run now. But to do what I do, cheat. Use AADC-EF08 to get SS+MC and hold the frameskip key. Turbo-A through the dialog and get 3 AP for Terra's Muddle during the Cave to the Sealed Gate. (Or, cheat again. 7E1A91 is Terra's Imp spell. I do the math to find the other spells. Other characters are listed sequentially.) Turbo the banquet and boat ride. If the FlameEater is being obnoxious then attack him with "STZ" ;). (Monster HP = 7E3BFC, 7E3BFE, 7E3C00, 7E3C02, 7E3C04, 7E3C06.) When the FC appears turn off all of your cheat codes and start playing normally. Take Terra, Setzer, and Relm on the FC. Terra will finish Muddle during the IAF sequence. You can use Muddle Doom on Ultros and Smoke Doom on the Air Force. You should be 5 AP away from the rest of the required spells. Use Whatever Doom on two random battles to finish your spell list. I've discovered that I can actually choose the formation that I encounter on the FC by taking my last step at different times, unlike the rest of the game. Thank goodness, because I need to fight a Dragon. Make a save state here and reload untill a Dragon appears. Go. :)
I've redone the Magitek Factory to be about a minute faster thanks to not taking Magicite from Flan and skipping the Break Blade. I'm at precisely the point where Number 024 has wasted the only two turns he'll ever get and I'm in the process of manipulating the two desperation moves that'll finish him off. (Ifrit only took me two hours this time instead of a whole day. I've spent so much time fighting this idiot that I could've done a real console run! Haha.)
Since Flagitoius invented Muddle Doom I don't need Gogo anymore. However, if I swap Gogo for Gau I'll need another vanisher. I don't have Celes otherwise she could learn Vanish almost for free. Then my teams would be Celes/Gau, Edgar/Mog, and Setzer. (I think I can get Gau to *arrive* on a Rhodox or equivilent battle in the WOR!) The Muddle+Phantom trick does work, but Kutan can't do it. So because Kutan is a brick I think I need to stick with Setzer/Kutan, Mog/Edgar, and Gogo. Flying the airship, getting in one battle and waiting for a special event is the common price of either Gau or Gogo. Gogo just requires another 80 seconds of walking. Replacing Gogo with Sabin+Gau and using Muddle+Phantom is a remote possibility. But Sabin has the advantage of speeding up Kutan. (Have I ever mentioned how much I hate Kutan?)
If I were to do a 3rd run, I'd skip the relics in the mansion, manipulate 7E1F6D for a perfect raft ride like Erim did, take Celes, not take the Narshe relics, not pick up any espers in Zozo except Siren, figure out how to use Celes for the sketch glitch since she saves 5 seconds on the FC, take Gau to the MTRF to fight 024, and fight many fewer random battles. For starters.
EDIT: Someone would need to edit the avi file to make our movies sync up, but that would be amazing. This game fades to black and fades in from black often enough that it should be easy but tedious to sync our movies by adding black frames during the transitions. You could sync at the moogle battle, Edgar's intro, entering Koltz, Vargas, Ultros 1, , the scenarios and the Narshe battle naturally sync which is wicked cool, Dadaluma, the balcony scene, Ultros 2, the Magitek Factory, the esper world, the banquet, the burning house, the IAF sequence, the Solitary Island, the Tentacles, Dullahan, entering Kefka's Tower, and the movies should probably stay in sync from there.
The Muddle+Phantom trick does work, but Kutan can't do it. So because Kutan is a brick I think I need to stick with Setzer/Kutan, Mog/Edgar, and Gogo. Flying the airship, getting in one battle and waiting for a special event is the common price of either Gau or Gogo. Gogo just requires another 80 seconds of walking. Replacing Gogo with Sabin+Gau and using Muddle+Phantom is a remote possibility. But Sabin has the advantage of speeding up Kutan. (Have I ever mentioned how much I hate Kutan?)
Hmm...Kutan can't use Muddle, but he could use Phantom via Magicite. Would that be workable?
It would ruin the point of seeing who's faster overall (up to their respected endpoints), but it would add a point of seeing which rooms/battles are slower or faster for any of the two runs, much to the delight of those who crave instant satisfaction without having to run two emulators. It would just be interesting, but I can't imagine anyone would do such a thing, unless it's super easy to edit somehow.
It can be done, but it requires re-syncing the movies each time manually. It's not hard, just time consuming, and for right now I don't have enough to spare. Great job with the new WIP Erim.
If you gave me a set of events to sync up to as frame sets (ie catastrophe's frame 12345 == erim's frame 11234 for the same event, all the way through) then I could do it.
But I've already made a dual encoding of this movie, and it's a very long movie. I'm not sure if people would want to download it again, what with the last one being verbose enough as it was.
I'm up to the final battle.
4hr 52sec and some frames according to the .smv and it's 3:41 from the in-game timer.
I don't feel definitive but I think a sub 4hr run might not be impossible. I do have a few mistakes in my run, it's my first time running this(or any) game. I'm not sure if I can save +3min with the current plan though.
As for Catastrophe's run, I'm sure you already know, but you can't use Kutan(or any other moogle who joined in a similar fashion) in the final battle.
erokky - Why is it impossible to use Kutan in the final battle?
I'm soooo eager to see this movie. Please submit it before I go to London on monday! :D
Edit:
*slaps my forhead* I didn't check the workbench of course! :D
CHEERS!!
Mog is the only playable moogle after the event in the mines of Narshe. All the rest are just fillers, players to help you along. :P Kutan is one of the filler moogles.
Actually it's because the game doens't recognize any other name than the 14 it was programmed to know for that particular list. I think that's it. Kutan doesn't show up on that list when electing the order for the final battle.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Just figured I pop in to give an update!
I've been doing the real life thing for two weeks but I have worked a few hours on this run anyway. I've redone from the start of the Magitek Factory up to the cart ride to skip all of the following: Flan's Magicite, the Break Blade, and Ifrit. I've also stolen a Rune Edge from my buddy #024. :) Next up is 128, his rare steal, and a debilitator from the cranes.
I had a plan for my AP which taught Edgar Vanish, since he was around for enough bosses to nearly get it for free anyway. However, while I was typing it just now, I realized that I could give almost any other character ~10 free AP or Sabin ~20 free AP. (Free means that I don't have to go out of my way for it, and that I also have to kill those monsters anyway.) So then I started thinking about three other problems:
1) I technically don't need Gogo anymore. Before, I was going to get Mog, put him in my party, fight a ZE, equip the MC, and run to Gogo. Gogo can use jump and mimic on 77B to defeat the tiers. However, thanks to Muddle, Gogo is obsolete. That saves bundles of time! But now I need an instant death plan for party #3 in Kefka's Tower. (The other teams are Edgar/Mog and Setzer/Kutan.)
Btw, Kutan can't be half of a Vanish-(death) team. Not only would I need a Magicite item, which I won't have, but Kutan's partner, Mog, won't know Muddle or any other spells. So all Kutan can do is use ES/SB for Setzer. However, thanks to multiple Paladin Shlds, I'm just about invincible without any manipulation at all. I've got a 50% chance to dodge anything physical or magical and a 100% chance to nullify any elemental attack. :) So sending Mog, Setzer, or Gogo in alone is an easily workable strategy.
2) Kutan is slow in the WOR. Physically slow. -_-
3) Prior to the FC I'm begging for AP and I need 2-3 random encounters to set up the sketch glitch. This is not optimal. Then, immediately afterwards, I waste 20 AP without putting it to any use. To set up the sketch glitch Terra needs 20 AP on Stray, Setzer needs 20 on Shoat, and Relm 15 on Siren. This is almost free, but then nobody uses their magic ever again. (Terra does use Muddle on the tiers, but so couldn't anyone else.) Thanks to the Atma Weapon, the Naughties, Nerapa, and the WOR bosses Setzer learns Doom for free and he doesn't even want it. This looks bad. Can I solve #1 and #3 by swapping Setzer for someone else? Give me just a minute.
3) Prior to the FC I'm begging for AP and I need 2-3 random encounters to set up the sketch glitch. This is not optimal. Then, immediately afterwards, I waste 20 AP without putting it to any use. To set up the sketch glitch Terra needs 20 AP on Stray, Setzer needs 20 on Shoat, and Relm 15 on Siren. This is almost free, but then nobody uses their magic ever again. (Terra does use Muddle on the tiers, but so couldn't anyone else.) Thanks to the Atma Weapon, the Naughties, Nerapa, and the WOR bosses Setzer learns Doom for free and he doesn't even want it. This looks bad. Can I solve #1 and #3 by swapping Setzer for someone else? Give me just a minute.
Gau might work. He's definitely the other quick one to pick up in the WoR.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Hey, my edit is gone! I'm positive I edited my post the other day. I really meant it when I said "just a minute".
Yeah, the answer to all three was supposed to be Sabin. Teaching Sabin both Vanish and Doom is nearly feasable. He could get: 17 from the cart-Cranes, 3 from the banquet, 11 from the IAF-Air Force, 10 from Atma Weapon, 12 from Naughtys and Nerapa, 5 from the Tentacles, and 5 from Dullahan. Combined, that is 74 AP. Vanish-Doom requires 85.
Random encounters on the FC are almost always worth 5 and can be worth 6, although then Setzer would be required for Joker Doom. Relm has to sketch on the FC and that will likely require one or two encounters to set up anyway, which would give Sabin his 85. Sabin would learn Doom last because Edgar needs to learn Phantom. This is the plan that doesn't work:
Minecart+128+Cranes = 17 AP
Locke learns Muddle (17/15)
Edgar is at 17/35 on Vanish
Sabin is at 17/50 on Doom
Banquet = 3 AP (Mega Armor = 2, Sp Forces = 1)
Terra is at 3/20 on Stray that she needs to set up the Sketch Glitch (SG)
Edgar is at 20/35 on Vanish
Sabin is at 20/50 on Doom
Flame Eater = 4 AP
Terra is at 7/20 on Stray
IAF+Air Force = 11 AP
Terra is at 18/20 on Stray (SG use only)
Sabin is at 11/35 on Phantom
Relm is at 11/15 on Siren (SG use only)
Kill IAF with Aurabolt + Rod each. (I can afford tons of stuff.)
Terra will be at exactly 15 before Ultros. Perfect. Muddle-Fader-StarPrism.
Kill Air Force like Flame Eater, but with more rods. (bad)
Atma Weapon = 10 AP
Sabin is 21/35 on Phantom
Terra and Relm are done.Sabin only needed 20 on Shoat to prepare, which he already had.Dragon = 5 AP (SG time!)
Sabin is at 26/35 on Vanish, assuming that the SG doesn't bork my AP
Naughtys+Nerapa = 3*3 + 3 = 12 AP
Sabin finishes Vanish
Sabin is at 23/50 on Doom
Tentacles
Sabin is at 28/50 on Doom
Dullahan
Edgar is at 25/35 on Vanish
Sabin is at 33/50 on Doom
Taking Edgar instead of Sabin on the FC makes the IAF easier (Chain Saw!), Nerapa easier (Chain Saw!), and the Air Force easier (Chain Saw! No, I mean Debilitator!). However, Edgar gets 5 fewer AP than Sabin. I could kill the random enounters on the FC, because those are partially free, but after a certain point it makes more sense just to get Gogo. Stopping for Cactrot(s) isn't the most efficient way to make up a deficit. Using Metamorph on either the Skull Dragon or the Gold Dragon will work, believe it or not, and will give the left team 10 AP at the last minute just before they need it. (The right team is Setzer because of Inferno.) If I have to resort to this then the Sp Forces from the banquet will drop a Magicite item.
I haven't ruled out Gau in the WOR or Mog in the WOB yet. It's not impossible for me to manipulate Gau into returning on a battle with Rhodox.Then the Figaro bros can get away with just Vanish each...
I think you should know that you get a total of 15 from the IAF and the Air Force. Six battles worth 2AP each and Air Force is worth 3.
Number 024(4AP)
Minecart(8/5AP): Considering you encounter the minimum amount of monsters(consult Mag Roader FAQ).
Number 128(5AP)
Cranes(4AP)
Mega Armor(2AP)
Sp Forces(1AP)
IAF(12/6AP)
Air Force(3AP)
AtmaWeapon(10AP)
Naughty(9/3AP): 2 Naughty battles are mandatory, even if you could have Moogle Charm.
Nerapa(3AP)
Tentacles(5AP)
Dullahan(5AP)
Inferno(8AP)
Guardian(7AP)
Poltrgeist(10AP)
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Jyzero wrote:
So I'm just going to do my real run now (yay!) and just pray that the sketch command works on my real run.
This is risky. I'm afraid it won't work later if you do the same sequence of events in your real run.
This is strange indeed. I used the Dragon in the little sketch glitch video I posted in the other thread and it worked. Do you have a savestate at that point ?
I know this is old now, but here is that save state: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1278/FC-Crash.smv
This is a new test run (not WIP) where I bring Relm, Setzer, and Sabin on the FC. The plan is for both Edgar and Sabin to learn Vanish, but for Sabin to also learn Doom. The Floating Continent seems to have its own ideas about when random encounters occur and I don't think that the Charm Bangle matters at all in this dungeon. So, since I'm being forced to fight ~7 battles, and I have a manipulatable 50% chance for each battle to give 5 AP, Sabin can easily reach 85 AP during the game for virtually no penalty! In addition, I can use Phantom and Shoat to set up the Sketch Glitch! It's perfect! But then the game crashes. :(
Edgar gets his 35 AP from the following sources: minecart (17), banquet (3), Dullahan (5), Skull Dragon (10). The Sp Forces drop a Magicite item, and Edgar walks within steps away from the dragon in Kefka's Tower. Scoring a OHKO on a boss with Metamorph is both hillarious and fast! I like it!
Believe it or not, teaching both Edgar *and* Sabin both Vanish *and* Doom on the Floating Continent and skipping Mog, Gau, and Gogo and going straight for KT imediately after getting the Falcon is rediculously fast! However, this is only feasable if your third party member is Relm so that she can glitch the dragon into giving you Paladin Shlds. Unfortunately, this team gets absolutely wrecked during the IAF sequence. Edgar can use his Chain Saw, Relm can break a Thundr Rod, and Sabin can use a Blitz, which will likely leave his target alive for Edgar. And then the Air Force.. ugh. More rods. I wish Relm had an ID attack that didn't require me to wait 30 seconds (and die) first.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Good news! I discovered that the cause of my crash was a combination of the sketch glitch on a mould 7 monster and some old cheat codes that I had enabled to zero out the monsters HP. I'm not sure why this was a problem, but it won't be a problem in the movie. (Zeroing out the HP is just faster for me than manipulating the 777. The movie will use 777 of course.) And I did verify that my spell plan does in fact cause the sketch glitch, and that I do get the items that I want from it.
So then, I went to do one last test run. This should be the fastest FF6 route ever:
NOTES
- Muddle requires 15 AP on Stray
- Locke or Terra should have Muddle before Ultros 3 (Muddle + Phantom)
- Sabin or Edgar should have Muddle before Ultros 4 (Muddle + 77B)
- Vanish requires 35 AP on Phantom and also teaches Beserk and Demi
- Doom requires 50 AP on Shoat and also teaches Bio and Break
- Given Vanish/Doom, the optimal route to the sketch glitch involves the following spells: Cure, Antdot, Scan, Muddle, Bserk, Vanish, Bolt, Poison, Bio, Break, and (Demi - not used).
- Relm and Setzer can learn the rest of the spells by using Maduin and Kirin.
PATH
1. Defeat #024
Sabin gets 4AP for Stray
2. Escape Sequence + Defeat #128
Locke steals a Tempest to sell for an Ice Rod later. (+rare item bonus)
Sabin gets 13 AP for Phantom
Locke gets 13 AP for Stray
3. Cranes
Locke steals a Debilitator for future ownage.
Sabin gets 4 AP from cranes for Phantom (17/35)
Locke finishes learning Muddle
4. Pickup Terra5. Fly though the Cave to the Sealed Gate6. Score 82/83 at the Imperial Banquet
Sabin gets 3 total AP from 'required' fights for Phantom (20/35)
Take the Gale Hairpin while the timer ticks. This item saves more time than the few frames that Erokky saved by minimizing the number of screen transitions and it gives me something to do during the 2 minutes of boredom.
Score the Charm Bangle!
7. Boat to Thamasa8. Go Shopping
Sell everything except one Earring, the Hero Ring, and the tools.
Purchase 8 Ice Rods
9. Defeat the FlameEater with 4 Ice Rods
10. Defeat Ultros 3 with Muddle+Phantom and SabreSoul from Strago
11. General Leo's Battle
Use 4 Ice Rods for improved damage.
Leo's attack animations are very slow. Ice Rods are faster, anyway.
Watch Leo enter his spell casting pose!
12. The IAF Sequence
Win with Joker Doom
Sabin gets 12 AP for Stray and learns Muddle
Relm and Setzer each get 12 AP towards their goals of 20 and 25 AP.
13. Defeat Ultros 4 with Muddle+77B
14. Defeat Air Force with 777
Sabin gets 3 AP towards Phantom (23 total)
15. Manipulate two 6 AP random enounters and use Joker Doom
Sabin learns Vanish and Bserk
Relm learns Poison and finishes her portion of the sketch glitch setup
Setzer learns Antdot and Scan and finishes with his esper as well
16. Win any two random encounters before the Atma Weapon
Sabin now has 10/50 on Shoat
Normally you get 6-7 encounters on the Floating Continent. This path uses 4.
17. Joker Doom the Atma Weapon
Sabin is at 20/50 on Shoat. Sabin learns Bio and Break. The sketch glitch is ready. There are exactly 6 steps between the Atma Weapon and Ghestal. Plan on a random enounter happening in those 6 steps. (Done.)
18. Do the Sketch Glitch
Manipulate the battle to be a Dragon
Win with Joker Doom
Obtain: Flame Shlds, Paladin Shlds, Echo Screens, Smoke Bombs, Magicite, each in a quantity of at least 100, plus 7 Illuminas.
Sabin is at 25/50 on Shoat
19. Fight 4 Naughties and Nerapa
Flame Shld for each Naughty
Joker Doom OR Aurabolt OR ThundrRod for Nerapa
20. Solitary Island
Without Sprint Shoes it is a toss up which is faster: feeding Cid or ignoring him. Figure this out and move on. This segment of the game affects nothing in the future.
21. Pick Up Sabin in Tzen
With 'luck', I can get away with as little as 4 random encounters total
Equip Sabin with SS+CB! Yay!
22. Chocobo to Nikeah23. Meet Gerad in Nikeah
Last chance to manipulate the ones digit of my GP, but I should not have to.
24. Meet Gerad in South Figaro25. Fight the Tentacles
Re-equip Sabin to be double boosted.
Round 1: Sabin casts Doom. Edgar makes the 7000 HP target weak to fire. (Normally absorbs.) Kutan targets the top-left Tentacle with a Flame Shld. No enemies target Kutan and all of them miss. (Paladin Shlds! Edgar gets one automatically.)
Round 2: Kutan targets the top left one and takes it out. Sabin targets Edgar's tentacle and does 6000 damage. Edgar attacks it with the Illumina for 1006 damage and kills it. The remaining Tentacle does nothing.
Round 3: The last remaining Tentacle has just 5000 HP and is killed by the next two characters who act. Any two will work.
Sabin gets 5 AP and is at 45/50 on Shoat
Boy was I happy with this fight!
26. Shuttle to Kohlingen and Meet Setzer27. Defeat Dullahan with Joker Doom
Sabin learns Doom!
28. Obtain the Falcon29. Enter Kefka's Tower
Good news! I just saved 5 minutes! Bad news, my party sucks. But...
Edgar+Kutan take the left
Sabin takes the middle
Setzer takes the right
30. Final Dungeon
Edgar runs to his dead end
Sabin unlocks Edgar's path and reaches his dead end
Setzer uses Joker Doom on Inferno and unlocks Sabin's path
Edgar runs to his switch
Sabin runs to his switch
Setzer runs to his switch
Edgar and Kutan go right
Sabin goes left
Setzer uses Joker Doom on the Guardian, Poltrgiest, and stops at the end
Edgar equips himself to be double boosted
Edgar uses forces a fire weakness on the Goddess
Kutan and Edgar use Flame Shlds at the rate of 10K damage per round. Goddess uses nothing but Bolt2/3 on Edgar, who is immune. Goddess dies in 5 rounds total without using Quasar or Overcast. (Confirmed!)
Edgar reaches the final switch
Sabin uses Vanish Doom on Doom (haha!) and reaches the final switch
The tiers are only Sabin, Setzer, and Edgar. Setzer uses 77B, Sabin uses Muddle on Setzer, and Edgar punches Setzer. Three times. None of my characters are ever touched thanks to the Paladin Shlds.
Kefka dies with a calculated 777, probably a Remedy just like Erokky's run. But I'll have to calculate it to be sure.
That should be wicked fast! I'm on step 2. I'll post a WIP at step 4. In the meantime I'm all ears.
