From what nitsuja says, it sounds like the height of the Sonic/Cream tag action is determined by how high sonic would normally jump. When sonic isn't on a slope, his speed doesn't affect his jump height. So the Sonic/Cream tag action will always give the same height when you're not on a slope.
Well, unless boost mode lets you jump higher
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
OK, sorry for taking so many posts to say this, but the trick to get maximum height from Cream's tag action is to activate the tag action as soon after starting a jump as possible (before you even get off of the ground is best), instead of near the peak of the jump.
This is because it works by doubling your current upward velocity, and you are moving upward fastest at the instant you start jumping, so activating it then gives the biggest upward boost. That's also why you can use it at the bottom of any upward spring to basically shoot to the top of the level, because it takes the already-high spring velocity and doubles it to something ridiculous. It doesn't matter how fast you're moving horizontally; the only reason that matters on slopes is because it affects your normal jump in that case, which in turn affects the boost.
The boost height seems random if you don't always activate the boost at a consistent time in the jump, but this is what I meant by "if you get the timing right". In a non-TAS it's difficult to get the absolute maximum height every time, but it's easy to get very close to it once you know the trick.
NOTE: I said it works by doubling your speed, but it also tries adding some small amount to it instead, and it uses whichever one is better. That's why you still get a tiny upward boost if you use it while falling, instead of it making you fall twice as fast.
Well, no one's posted in a bit... But I guess I should throw in my two cents.
Sonic/Cream isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure there's instantaneous launching, but it's missing the most crucial thing... R-tricks. That's the thing that can make or break flow. I've studied a bit, and the only place Sonic/Cream is actually the most efficient is--
EDIT: NOT Toy Kingdom 1. That's a Sonic-tag-partner level, as far as I know. Cyber Track 2 works, though, as far as I know.
Still, I think they could be faster than Sonic+Tails in one or two of the later levels. Tricks aren't always crucial.
(Maybe you're right, but I won't trust that sort of thing without trying it myself first.)
EDIT: By the way, thanks for putting up all those videos, they should be extremely helpful...
EDIT2: Tails+Sonic beats Sonic+Tails on Route 99 Act 2! Optimized Sonic+Tails was 0'40''72, whereas optimized Tails+Sonic was 0'39''47 despite seeming hopeless at first. That means it won't be necessary to switch characters at all anywhere in the first zone since Tails+Sonic is faster at all three zones and the boss fight.
Yeah, perhaps. But with the course layouts as they are, there can be a loss. Especially Chaos Angel, where some points need maximum height from Tails's tag action. But I may be wrong, and if I am, feel free to prove it. Especially since I only see the grasp of stuff in a non-tool situation.
Also, Cyber Track 2 is a place where Sonic/Cream can beat out Sonic/Tails by at least one or two seconds. This further proves that I can be wrong, though I'm speaking with experience in mind when I say this stuff. I'm doubting Chaos Angel 1, but Chaos Angel 2 may be possible.
I am wondering... which characters are worth getting, if the goal is to minimize the sum of the in-level times without repeating any level? My guess is that Knuckles and Amy are not worth getting and that Cream is worth getting. I tried TASing Chaos Angel 1 with Sonic+Cream I and got 1:11:55. which isn't as much faster as I expected, but might be enough when combined with using Cream on Cyber Track 2 and maybe Chaos Angel 2.
Well if anyone wants to see what I have so far, I put it here. If you see a mistake or can think of a possible improvement in those levels (or in-between levels for that matter) let me know. Also, not much more can be done without finally deciding which characters to get, which I'm looking for input on. The problem is that the only way to unlock a character is to beat a certain level (2-3 Knuckles, 4-3 Amy, 6-3 Cream) with Sonic as the leader, which will make that level slower than having Sonic as the partner.
Not sure if I am doing something wrong, but I am having troubles playing that movie. When I try to play it I am told that it "is not in proper VBM format."
I agree that Amy is useless, though Knux may have his uses. I was wondering if Sonic+Knuckles would be able to down the last Eggman faster than Cream though. Sonic's up+B in that combo does something of a double jump, which would be able to hit the weakpoint whenever it is vunerable, with out having the drawback of having to wait for Cheese to be able to attack again when using Cream. Only be a small time saver though, and I guess his only other use is knocking down walls that get in your way quickly.
Edit: Or you could just use Tails, tails when flying to do the same. Nevermind.
<Neclea>Gavin Ward <Sprint>WHAT? WHERE?
<oldskoolgamer101>What a stupid name!
oldskoolgamer101 was kicked from # soniccenter by Sprint [ says you , kimpy ]
Sorry, I forgot that it's impossible to make a zip file of a movie while VBA is playing it, and that WinRAR [version 3.0.0] sucks too much to give any error when compression fails. Try that link again.
EDIT: Also, here is Chaos Angel 1 with Sonic+Cream.
Uh, it may be some arcane version you're using, but at least 3.60 gives me a "cannot open <blah> another process <blah>" error. And I believe I got it while using older 3.x versions as well.
As for the movies, both of them look very sweet to me (probably because I'm familiar with GBA Sonic games only on a basic level to say anything else). Boss fight looked somewhat strange, but knowing your persistence in frame hunting, I believe it actually is perfect. :) Looking forward to the rest of the run once you finish deciding what character combination is the best (too bad you can't change them before each act).
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Wow very nice WIP. I love speed and I this run offered that all the time. Compared with your Sonic advance 2 run, I enjoyed this more as I obviously could see you :)
Which part / what about it?
They can be changed before each act. It takes time to do it but if it makes it faster inside the act then it's worth doing. Only Sonic and Tails are available from the start, though.
Nothing serious — I just couldn't grasp the vulnerability/invulnerability pattern and the exact place to hit it in its second part.
Ah, that's why I thought so. Well, personally, I'd go for in-game time since it's more impressive to see each level beaten as fast as possible even though the amount of time spent inbetween will turn out greater, IMO.
EDIT: Wow, 3 unnoticed typos in one short post. I break my own records!
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
It's a shame you only get Cream for the last level of the game...
Anyway, I think that the Knuckles+Sonic combination should not be underestimated. Probably test with it first, but his headbutt attack combined with a Sonic boost is pretty quick.
However, I'd write Amy off pretty quickly.
I didn't make the above post; there must have been some error with the forum....
Levels in a zone can be done out of order, so Cream can also be used in Cyber Track 1 and 2.
The headbutt doesn't increase speed past normal jumping speed, even in boost mode, and it takes a while to animate, so that move would be relatively useless.
I'm guessing that Tails' high jump is faster than climbing with Knuckles on 3-1.
Well it turns blue whenever it's not taking damage, so it's clear it was always hit as soon as it became vulnerable. The location to hit is the top part in the center, but Tails can also damage that through the bottom sometimes.
Actually, that might have been my post that got deleted.
I was talking about a particularly long shaft on level 3-1, which is usually only accessible with knuckle's slow climbing.
But if you can manage it with Tails, that would make all the difference.
Oh no, LodeRunner. Act 1 of Ocean Base can definitely be ascended easily with Tails's tag action, and without even going near the skinny shaft. The secret relies on the fact that if you fall, you don't just fall lower, you fall backwards, losing progress. Now just reverse that at a vital point, and you shave seconds off. I know it can go below 37 seconds.
Also, that Chaos Angel 1 run's pretty cool. Though there's no way I'm gonna do that in real time... Unless I have to.
Also, it seems even the TAS run can't compare to Knuckles/Amy... But of course, since they're locked, that won't help... And I've only seen that team used there and Chaos Angel 3... Hm... maybe check Chaos Angel 3 on that account?
Maybe my Chaos Angel 1 Sonic+Cream route wasn't so great after all. I made a map of that act and marked 3 different possible route changes I saw on it:
EDIT: With some minor changes, that route gave a time of 1:00:60, and I found a way to do the start a little faster, so maybe sub-1-minute Chaos Angel 1 is possible.
Also, here is a map of the next level, Ocean Base 1, which I still have to find a route through:
Ugh, let's see, here are some estimates...
Getting Knuckles: Lose 3 seconds.
Getting Amy: Lose 12 seconds.
Getting Cream: Lose 12 seconds.
Using Knuckles and Amy on Chaos Angel 3: Gain 28 seconds?
or Using Cream and Amy on Chaos Angel 3: Gain 15 seconds?
Using Cream on Cyber Track 2: Gain 6 seconds?
Using Cream on Chaos Angel 1: Gain 16 seconds?
Using Cream on Chaos Angel 2: Gain 6 seconds?
I think I'll change my goals so that I get all of the characters and play 2-3, 4-3, and 6-3 twice (once to get the character and again later to beat it with the best combination). It would be a shame to not use K+A on Sunset Hill 3 and Chaos Angel 3.