Post by kileran

Posted: 10/23/2006 11:41 PM

Post subject: Hydrogen Splitting

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

Aside from the safety risks, what would happen if i cut up an old extension cord, plugged the prongs into a regular 110 outlet, and put the two cut ends into a tub of water?

Posted: 10/23/2006 11:45 PM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

And on a similar topic, When we split H2O into H2 and O, what happens to that O? Isn't atmospheric Oxygen O2? Can we breath O?

Posted: 10/23/2006 11:45 PM

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xebra

Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203

Aside from death, the worst that would happen is you would trip a breaker.

Posted: 10/23/2006 11:47 PM

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xebra

Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203

kileran wrote:

And on a similar topic, When we split H2O into H2 and O, what happens to that O? Isn't atmospheric Oxygen O2? Can we breath O?

The oxygen atoms will spontaneously combine into oxygen molecules (O2). Hence, you get twice as much hydrogen by volume.

Posted: 10/23/2006 11:51 PM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

xebra wrote:

Aside from death, the worst that would happen is you would trip a breaker.

Right, but what would the rate of splitting be? Is it voltage that limits the amount of electrolysis? If i ran the 110 volts down to 12 volts for safety, would my rate by any lower? I know my electricity, i just cant find any reputable documentation on Electrolysis.

Posted: 10/24/2006 12:12 AM

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xebra

Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203

kileran wrote:

Right, but what would the rate of splitting be? Is it voltage that limits the amount of electrolysis? If i ran the 110 volts down to 12 volts for safety, would my rate by any lower? I know my electricity, i just cant find any reputable documentation on Electrolysis.

If you know the free energy of the reaction, you can determine the theoretical maximum rate based on the electrical energy you put into the system. Voltage won't affect the rate; higher voltage just lets you split more ornery compounds. Water is pretty easy to split, I know you can do it with batteries, so probably just a single volt is sufficient. More current will result in faster electrolysis.

Posted: 10/24/2006 2:15 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

Hmm, i was about to try this, when i realized two things. 1) I probably shouldn't run 110 volts through 22 gague wire 2) AC cant do electrolysis, can it?

Posted: 10/24/2006 2:21 AM

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xebra

Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203

I'm sure it can, just the oxidizing and reducing nodes would flip 120 times a second. I'm sure the reaction takes place on time scales many orders of magnitude shorter than that, though, so no doubt some hydrogen and oxygen would be produced.

Posted: 10/24/2006 2:45 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

kileran wrote:

1) I probably shouldn't run 110 volts through 22 gague wire 2) AC cant do electrolysis, can it?

1) Doesn't matter: the amount of energy it takes to keep O2 and H2 from reacting with eachother is so great that you won't be able to do it with any household version of electricity. 2) Electrolysis is not the word you are looking for. The only way that you are going to effectively split H20 is with a strong acid/base, the right apparatus to ensure that the two molecules won't remix, and a lot of heat.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:05 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

Zurreco wrote:

2) Electrolysis is not the word you are looking for. The only way that you are going to effectively split H20 is with a strong acid/base, the right apparatus to ensure that the two molecules won't remix, and a lot of heat.

Actually i was splitting H2O this afternoon, with a 9V battery. I'm just trying to find the info to do it quicker. Search google, you can split H2O with almost any DC source. heat is not a factor. As far as keeping it separated, that's just a matter of containment.

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:06 AM

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xoinx

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Joined: 9/20/2006
Posts: 287
Location: Singapore

kileran wrote:

2) AC cant do electrolysis, can it?

I doubt so, even if it is chemically feasible, the fact that the anode/cathode keeps swapping will affect the way ions migrate around. It should significantly lower the effciency of the reaction

Truncated wrote:

Truncated is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. -- xoinx

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:07 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

kileran wrote:

Actually i was splitting H2O this afternoon, with a 9V battery. I'm just trying to find the info to do it quicker.

What you are doing is not "splitting H2O" in a literal sense, then.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:11 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

xoinx wrote:

I doubt so, even if it is chemically feasible, the fact that the anode/cathode keeps swapping will affect the way ions migrate around. It should significantly lower the effciency of the reaction

Thanks, Thought so. I'l stop messing with AC :)

Zurreco wrote:

What you are doing is not "splitting H2O" in a literal sense, then.

Then what do you call taking H2O, and "separating" the H2 from the O? I'm not saying your wrong, like i said earlier, i know my way around electricity, just not electrolysis.

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:15 AM

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Zurreco

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Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

To say that you're splitting the water molecule is a misnomer, because the reaction is taking place in an excess environment of H2O as is. I don't want to get in to the details of this, but basically, 'splitting' water has yet to be perfected, since it requires massive amounts of energy to separate H2 from O2 and keep them from re-interacting with eachother. As soon as you literally separate H2 from water, it will either reform water or explode. Only if you superheat H2 in a <10torr vaccuum will you maybe get actual splitting.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:20 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

I think i see why what we're disputing. Your saying that "Spliting" is only an applicable term if you can split them, and they stay split without other means of separation. I define the act of splitting as just getting them apart. With the right DC voltage, and the right containment, you can use the fact that the hydrogen is lighter than water to keep the two separated.

Posted: 10/24/2006 3:30 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

Do you think that you can split up peanut butter from jelly AFTER the sandwhich is made? Sure, one can postulate that by peeling apart the sandwich at just the right angle, you'll minimize the amount of peanut butter on jelly action, but you'll never be able to fully separate the two and keep them apart. Much like water or a family of alcoholics, a PBnJ sanwich will EXPLODE if you make a conscious effort to split it up.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:15 AM

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xoinx

Former player

Joined: 9/20/2006
Posts: 287
Location: Singapore

Haha... the more I interact in this forum, the more impressed I am of the inhabitants. They seem to know everything from Informatics, to Chem, to Politics and Linguistics o.O Now the only other topic I haven't seen is on theoretical Economics LOL

Truncated wrote:

Truncated is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. -- xoinx

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:36 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

Zurreco, I was really trying to understand your point of view, but now you've proven your just ignorant on the subject. Electrolysis is pretty basic science. Trying to compare the splitting of molecules via an electric charge to alcoholics, or Peanut butter and Jelly, is WAY to far to even try to keep this train of thought going. If you dont believe me, Xoinx, and Xebra, go ask a science teacher, or any science student for that matter. I have an H2O splitter running on my kitchen table, right now. I've been swapping out different types and grades of batteries to see which works best.

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:38 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

xoinx wrote:

Haha... the more I interact in this forum, the more impressed I am of the inhabitants. They seem to know everything from Informatics, to Chem, to Politics and Linguistics o.O Now the only other topic I haven't seen is on theoretical Economics LOL

Try this on for size. 1st world countries have inflated thier dollar so far as 20X that of 3rd world countries and beyond, even though those countries have the ability now to compete on the same level, which is the basic reason that outsourcing has become economically feasable. How do you fix this situation?

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:39 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

kileran wrote:

Zurreco, I was really trying to understand your point of view, but now you've proven your just ignorant on the subject.

Whoops, you got me! Not like I'm a chemist or anything!

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:44 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

Woah there big boy, way to not listen to what I wrote earlier. Haven't you seen Chain Reaction with Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman? Why do you think we don't have hydrogen engines yet? e: That guy is such a mongoloid, I don't even know where to begin.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:50 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

1) you havn't answered my question, as to what is happening in that video, that you claim is impossible 2) you say that proof of your claims is that we dont have hydrogen engines, except we do.... they've been on the roads for a few years now.... i really dont know what to do here. You dont have clue what your talking about.

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:53 AM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

haha Zurreco is the chemist in question?

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 10/24/2006 4:54 AM

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kileran

Joined: 7/18/2006
Posts: 44

Claims to be.