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Posted: 10/27/2006 9:47 AM
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kwinse
Joined: 5/13/2006
Posts: 283
Tub wrote:
Atma and Drewseph were getting the speed booster with 1 power bomb, before killing crocomire. Killing crocomire and getting the speed booster with 2 power bombs shouldn't be more difficult.
It's not the number of power bombs, it's that a lot of stuff changes in western norfair after killing crocomire, including the lava in the aforementioned grapple room (if I'm not mistaken and that it was some other trigger that did that to me).
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
Posted: 10/27/2006 10:20 AM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
no, I checked, killing crocomire will really lower the lava (and add a couple of enemys along the way). however, atma managed to bomb jump out of lava in his first run, right before crocomire. Are you sure it's impossible?
m00
Posted: 10/27/2006 11:55 AM
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Drewseph
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
OKay, heres the deal. -You CANNOT get speedbooster after killing crocomire unless you get the grapple beam. if you want it early, you NEED an early powerbomb, since after the ibj to the overflowing grapple pit, you will need to bomb a blockade after the ibj -I grab the 5th energy tank so I don't have to waste even more time refilling my items on the respawn hive in norfair. -The west maridia quake is what breaks the tube, and the quake does not occur until Ridley is dead. -I didn't glitch the rinkas because I couldn't, I never could get the damn glitch to work -Refills in the run could be done less, as you said, I have a few of other things left over
Posted: 10/27/2006 3:46 PM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
well, this is as far as I got: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2463/SuperMetroidRedesign_croc_then_sb.smv dang. I'm not entirely convinced it's impossible, but I give up for now. edit: Drewseph just informed me, that that stupid wall isn't walljumpable anyway. I'll try Plan B later..
m00
Posted: 10/30/2006 12:31 AM
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darckness
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
Drewseph wrote:
-You CANNOT get speedbooster after killing crocomire unless you get the grapple beam. if you want it early, you NEED an early powerbomb, since after the ibj to the overflowing grapple pit, you will need to bomb a blockade after the ibj
Not true. I actually did it earlier this afternoon (killed crocomire and then got speed booster without grappling beam). It was difficult to compensate for the physics change coming out of the lowered lava, but manageable. You just have to pretend that the place where you lay the bomb that puts you out of the lava is like another starting point (ie you lay two bombs in approximately the same place). Also, your run was probably the most impressive piece of work that I've seen since I first played Redesign, which has been the best game I've played all year. Kudos!
Posted: 10/30/2006 6:01 PM
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Drewseph
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
darckness, if you made an SMV showing it being possible then it would save an EMENSE amount of time, nearly 3 minutes!!!!
Posted: 10/30/2006 6:46 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
In this run, SM Redesign shows very clear what a huge potential it has. Optimizing it to 100% would be nearly impossible without planning ahead through the entire run. Nevertheless, Drew did a great job, if keeping in mind it was his first TAS ever! As this run most likely won't make it on this site, especially because it uses a savestate instead of reset-recording, I decided to encode it myself! So here you go: http://www.archive.org/details/Super_Metroid_Redesign_TAS-v1_by_Drewseph The original AVI (with best quality) is the "Cinepack" version which is actually encoded using the x264 codec. You can use VLC Media Player to playback it. Enjoy!
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 10/30/2006 8:25 PM
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darckness
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
I'll try to make a video of how it's done, but I won't have any free time for several days. It took me several minutes to actually get it, and I had to slow down the framerate a bit in order to do so, but it's way better than sitting through the IBJ maze. I'd wager that if you played around with bomb jumping for a few minutes you could get it down pretty easily. It should look just like how you did it in your run, but when you get to the top of the lava you should pop out really quickly and then fall right back to a bomb that's in the same position as the one that initially blew you out of the lava.
Posted: 10/30/2006 9:05 PM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
I tried what you're mentioning. It's not possible if you're getting to the top of the lava at the wrong time, because you might not have a spare bomb to lay (see my smv a couple of posts ago). Also, the shooting thingy kept interfering and prevented me from timing my resurfacing properly. If you had more luck with the timing than kwinse and I had, and it's indeed possible, horray!
m00
Posted: 10/30/2006 11:03 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
darckness wrote:
I'll try to make a video of how it's done, but I won't have any free time for several days. It took me several minutes to actually get it, and I had to slow down the framerate a bit in order to do so, but it's way better than sitting through the IBJ maze. I'd wager that if you played around with bomb jumping for a few minutes you could get it down pretty easily. It should look just like how you did it in your run, but when you get to the top of the lava you should pop out really quickly and then fall right back to a bomb that's in the same position as the one that initially blew you out of the lava.
I tried it as well, and I think it's impossible. The bomb-counter won't allow you to get the extra bomb to come out of the lava in any way. And if you lay a bomb even above the surface (even when the lava goes slightly down at this moment) while still don't having a empty counter, the lava catches you again when the bomb explodes. So please, proof it with a smv if you can.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 10/31/2006 3:15 AM
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darckness
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
Right now I have a save state of me standing on the left side of the grapple room with the speed booster and nothing past that except a missile tank from the room above. I got a few minutes to fiddle around in the room again, and I discovered that it seems to be considerably harder to do now than when I did it the first time. If I had frame advance working on my emulator I could play with it much more easily, but alas, I must settle for merely slowing the frames down. http://darctek.ath.cx:8003/metroid3.000 That's proof that I've done it. If I can get an smv of the ibj I'll link it on here, but you've got just as much chance of doing it correctly as I do. Mostly it depends on how you get hit by the fireballs so that you can bounce correctly off it. This, in turn, can be determined by where the bomb catches samus when she's in morph ball state. If you're coming up to it too quickly, you can lay the bomb to explode on the top of the morph ball so that you'll fall a little bit more and avoid it (if that makes any sense?). Ideally, you want the fireball to boost you so that you can lay a bomb at the very top of the lava without needing another bomb to boost you up first, but I think the timing on this must be very precise, which is why I can't seem to get it without single frame advance; I must have gotten lucky when I did it previously.
Posted: 10/31/2006 3:26 AM
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Drewseph
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
I hardly think a save state is valid, you could have easily changed gravity in a code and gotten to the ledge, an SMV will be the only way to prove it possible
Posted: 10/31/2006 4:21 AM
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Bob_A
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432
Well of course, but i don't think they're lying. We'll just wait for an smv.
Posted: 10/31/2006 8:05 AM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I do, at least unless seeing the smv. Think about it: Only way to get out of the lava surface is with a double bombjump. Now you have to lay the 3rd bomb early enough to continue it without falling through, which however the counter won't allow in any way.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 10/31/2006 1:53 PM
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darckness
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
What reason would I have for lying? If I were lying, the only thing it would do is slow down the creation of more speed runs for this game. How does that benefit me? Regardless of whether I could have changed the gravity or something of that nature, I didn't. I'll still try to get an smv up, but if you're serious about getting a near-perfect run of this game, you'll keep trying to get it yourselves.
Posted: 10/31/2006 2:20 PM
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Drewseph
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
Saturn (aka god of SM TAS) cannot come close to breaking surface with enough bombs, and cannot get close to the ledge, and neight can I, si I do have doubt as to this being legit. I would appreciate an smv showing how to do this,
Posted: 10/31/2006 6:04 PM
(Edited: 11/3/2006 12:27 AM)
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darckness
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
I still don't have an smv (apparently my version of snes9x hates me?), but I managed to replicate the feat today. Additionally, I found a save state from the first time I tried and succeeded. If you load them in order, you can see how I do it, although I must apologize for not having states of every bomb; my method of doing this involves using two save states and alternating between them after each bomb so that I don't have to start over from the beginning. As a result, only the last two are left. I should mention that there was something I was forgetting in my previous descriptions. You guys were right; the bomb counter timing prevents you from hitting the final two bombs unless you cheat a little. After the second-to-last bomb (metroid3.005 below), you lay the final bomb ALMOST at the top of the jump, but not quite. tricky part The instant that you lay it, you have to uncurl from the morph ball, then curl back up. This buys you a couple frames of being motionless in midair so that you can catch the second-to-last and last bombs. You must use this technique to "get it" for all of the following save states: http://darctek.ath.cx:8003/metroid3.003 (original attempt; lay two bombs, each at the instant that the bomb counter refills) jigsaw style: lay bombs to "connect" the save states http://darctek.ath.cx:8003/metroid3.004 (just out of the lava) http://darctek.ath.cx:8003/metroid3.005 (completely out of the lava) http://darctek.ath.cx:8003/metroid3.006 (hold right to bounce onto the ledge) For each one of these, you should be laying bombs as soon as the counter refills. If you have trouble playing connect the dots let me know and I'll try to get a couple more states up. This clearly shows your positioning from two different spots and timings at the top of the lava, both of which are feasible and tested by me over the past twenty minutes.
Posted: 11/1/2006 5:48 PM
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raserucort
Joined: 6/26/2006
Posts: 23
Saturn wrote:
In this run, SM Redesign shows very clear what a huge potential it has. Optimizing it to 100% would be nearly impossible without planning ahead through the entire run. Nevertheless, Drew did a great job, if keeping in mind it was his first TAS ever! As this run most likely won't make it on this site, especially because it uses a savestate instead of reset-recording, I decided to encode it myself! So here you go: http://www.archive.org/details/Super_Metroid_Redesign_TAS-v1_by_Drewseph The original AVI (with best quality) is the "Cinepack" version which is actually encoded using the x264 codec. You can use VLC Media Player to playback it. Enjoy!
Beautiful run on a beautiful remake. Though I played it, I disliked the new physics... but now I'm even more scared at how challenging it looks from watching that run. It's crazy how large some rooms are, I'm used to seeing a transition screen every 3-4 seconds. :]
Posted: 11/2/2006 4:46 AM
Post subject: IBJ to speedboost!!!!!
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Drewseph
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
okay, I did it!!!! I completed the ibj though the lava, it required some crazy timming and abuse of the unmorphing, but I made it!!! thanks Darckness for the tips!! this manuver will cut 3 min off of the the final run to a posible 1:09, and of course, with more optimization, 1:04-1:07 any other possible time savers? [URL]http://drewseph.zophar.net/ibj.smv.zip[/URL]
Posted: 11/2/2006 5:01 AM
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darckness
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
Glad you managed to pull it off; looks about 100x better in your video than when I do it ;) Can't wait to see your next run!
Posted: 11/2/2006 5:41 AM
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kwinse
Joined: 5/13/2006
Posts: 283
Hmm, any possible way that a similar style of bomb jumping could be used to get the high jump boots without the grapple beam?
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
Posted: 11/2/2006 2:21 PM
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Drewseph
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
Probably not, since in water you can't get any height without already placing 2 bombs at once, in lava there is just barely enough time to only have one bomb placed at a time.
Posted: 11/2/2006 8:37 PM
(Edited: 11/2/2006 8:39 PM)
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Awesome!!!! This is possibly the biggest timesaver during the entire run! I never thought unmorphing and morphing again during a ibj, especially with such difficult physics, could be abused that way. You are a genius Drew! Also thanks alot darckness, for this crazy discovery. Sorry that I didn't believe you before, it just looked so impossible at first. Now we come closer and closer to the goal of beating this hack in sub-1 hour, but even with this trick and more optimizings in general, it will be extremely hard or probably still impossible. Anyway Drew, as this got cleared now, would you consider to do a 2nd TAS, while having more knowledge at it now, and trying to optimize the moves even more?
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 11/2/2006 8:39 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
We've yet to try doing something similar to Hi-jump to save a ~minute on bombjumping. BTW, I thought the biggest timesaver yet was Varia before Ice.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 11/2/2006 8:45 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
moozooh wrote:
BTW, I thought the biggest timesaver yet was Varia before Ice.
I think this one is even bigger. It will allow you to avoid the crazy morphball maze to the first PB (which now can be gotten at Crocomire) to save 2 min there alone, and it will also allow you to skip the IBJ to early Wave Beam (which was also required to enter the crazy morphball maze), so you can just use the speedbooster to get it and save another min just there.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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