Or, for the lexically challenged using the search feature, "tactics orge" and "tactics oger"
I've been thinking of this game recently... and while I don't have the time to play it, much less run it, I'd like to open a discussion.
It would seem an interesting game from a TAS point of view, considering all the variables and options that are possible. Right from the start, an informed player can customize the player-character to be an ideal fighter or wizard, etc.
...Either that, or the player's decisions are all irrelevant and there's only one useful unit class, and the same attack will be spammed relentlessly throughout the entire run.
I've got my fingers crossed for the former.
Useful resources:
http://www.luct.tacticsogre.com/http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/game/588770.htm
The game is Japanese only, and there seem to be similar games in progress for the GBA that are not Japanese, so this probably won't take off... but I still wanted to at least put the idea forward.
Only one useful unit, I think, at least in early game.
For males use Beastmaster, for females use Archer.
Actually you never need to upgrade after that. They're always just as good as they'll ever be, especially if you're in a hurry.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Hmmm, isn't this like the predecessor of FFT? Interesting, but wouldn't TASing this game may be boring since waiting for turns tend to slow the pace a lot. It plenty and fun to play by yourself and all, but for the viewer, I'm not sure if it works better than the standard action/adventure genres. Conceptually-wise, you could look for some ideas in the FFTA thread... they should share similar ideas.
What about trying the TAS Ogre Battle? It's similar in the class levelling system and stuff. The main thing is that different is that it is like a RTS. Rather than doing another 'tactics' type game, why not try this out instead? Try both games out normally first, I think there are quite interesting elements in Ogre Battle that are worth exploring.
Actually you never need to upgrade after that. They're always just as good as they'll ever be, especially if you're in a hurry.
That's a shame. With all the tricks and secrets in this game, a run that indulges in showing the game off a little might be acceptable... or at least worthwhile to create for it's own sake.
But, as I said, I lack the cojones to take this on myself, so I wouldn't expect anyone else to, either.
xoinx wrote:
Hmmm, isn't this like the predecessor of FFT? Interesting, but wouldn't TASing this game may be boring since waiting for turns tend to slow the pace a lot. It plenty and fun to play by yourself and all, but for the viewer, I'm not sure if it works better than the standard action/adventure genres. Conceptually-wise, you could look for some ideas in the FFTA thread... they should share similar ideas.
Yeah, you'd definitely have to be a fan of the game in order to get much out of the movie.
I was really hoping the FFT project would take off, but so far, it doesn't look like there's any interest. I suspect the reason for that is because FFT is a GBA game, as opposed to the more accessible (and easier to emulate) SNES.
Ogre Battle, apparently, is simply too massive... which could probably be said of this game as well. Heh. There was a thread about it a while back.
The game is in japanese and imo, we should wait some PS emu with rerecording and use the US version. The music sounds better and graphically a little better. Plus, text is understandable.
Hmmm, TASers try to skip texts so much and so quickly that I usually don't understand the plot unless I had played it myself... so to me I don't really thing it may be that bad an issue.
But the thing is that if it's the PS version that is going to be used, then wouldn't it mean all the WIPs have to be coded into video format since most will not own the game? The same problem may arise after submission, meaning everybody who intends to give the run a watch would have to download few hundred mb of video (maybe more for such a massive game?)... don't know about others but I will be turned off. Heck, as much as I wish for a nicer more polished version of the game to be done, some issues just may not work out so nicely. My call is that go ahead with the SNES version, after all there are so many uncertainties with PS re-recording and stuff, who knows, fans of this game may never see it being done!
LOL, this is starting to sound like it belongs to the PS re-recording thread haha
But the thing is that if it's the PS version that is going to be used, then wouldn't it mean all the WIPs have to be coded into video format since most will not own the game?
I think it also applies for Snes. I don't think many people own the cartridge either. Ogre Battle cartidge is rare and this one is rarer.
As for me, I own the original cd.
I don't think many people own the cartridge either
I know I shouldn't be advocating this, but well there are many *ahem* sources available to get dumps of SNES games... can't say the exact same for PS isos, while there are sources, the file sizes aren't exactly very friendly for downloading.
Well, or maybe I am just biased against PS re-recording at this point... Though I would wish to see Vagrant Story TASed (heard from gamefaqs some jap dude ran the whole game on the console in under 1:20 zomg!)
Hmmm, TASers try to skip texts so much and so quickly that I usually don't understand the plot unless I had played it myself... so to me I don't really thing it may be that bad an issue.
The plot doesn't factor into it; it's the in-battle stuff. Most people can't even read "cure" even though they'd understand it if it flashed by in an 1/8th of a second in English text.
I'm more or less prepared to record an audio commentary to accompany any run, explaining the plot, characters and most of all, tricks and strategy.
I'm more or less prepared to record an audio commentary to accompany any run, explaining the plot, characters and most of all, tricks and strategy.
Wow... that's a cool idea man! Reminds me of all those director cut DVDs that I have, would really make appreciating the run much better, since like watching the run with the commentary beats constantly referring back to the submission. Heck, I am just a lazy bum, but I salute your dedication to enriching TASes ;3
Actually you never need to upgrade after that. They're always just as good as they'll ever be, especially if you're in a hurry.
That's a shame. With all the tricks and secrets in this game, a run that indulges in showing the game off a little might be acceptable... or at least worthwhile to create for it's own sake.
To get any better units than that you have to switch to units that aren't nearly as good for a while. A long while.
Dromiceius wrote:
I'm more or less prepared to record an audio commentary to accompany any run, explaining the plot, characters and most of all, tricks and strategy.
I'd prefer subtitles to audio.. the music in games is most of the experience for me, and the Ogre series has really good music.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
I know I shouldn't be advocating this, but well there are many *ahem* sources available to get dumps of SNES games... can't say the exact same for PS isos, while there are sources, the file sizes aren't exactly very friendly for downloading.
Since people are supposed to own original game..... They shouldn't care about fle size.
To get any better units than that you have to switch to units that aren't nearly as good for a while. A long while.
You mean like switching to a Ninja class so that a Terror Knight could have decent WT?
I'm sure you're right, in any case. I found that there are some ~100 battles in the game, not including hell gate, which is another hundred or so. Some can be skipped, while many would (ideally) entail killing the leader while ignoring his troops. Very low EXP gain for any kind of upgrading.
I'm not discouraged, though. I think this is almost the kind of challenge Nach was describing in the challenge thread. Tactics Ogre has the added edge of not being trash.
Boco wrote:
I'd prefer subtitles to audio.. the music in games is most of the experience for me, and the Ogre series has really good music.
I tried the subtitle thing way back when I was new here- I added a feature to FCEU so that one could write subtitles in a txt file accompanying an fcm.
It sucked. Horribly. I don't know how to express how disagreeable it was to my mind to try and keep track of what was going on in the movie with text appearing at the bottom of the screen, describing what I'm supposed to be looking at even while reading the text. Though, for this run it might work a little better, since there's a lot of stoppage...
Regardless, there's no reason why I couldn't mix the audio, as I would more than likely watch the movie while recording, and my headset mic picks up audio from the headphone. It would all be quite satisfactory... and the music does indeed kick tremendous ass.
I started a rough draft. There's a lot to be answered for so far...
-I'm using rapid-A instead of frame advance, so the dialogues may not be optimal. It'll add up to a few seconds by the end.
-I have no idea what the birthday thing is for.
-The questions in The Inquisition were answered for max hp/str/vit/dex. The bonuses seemed negligible:
HP STR VIT DEX
2 5 1 1
But it looks like it worked out pretty well, if you have a look at Assman's stats.
-Fire element seemed a safe choice; I'll probably want a fire element wizard who can burn grass to find hidden treasure, and if most of my team is fire elemental, I can use the "witch trick" later on.
-All messages have been turned off. No frame-wasting announcements for EXP gains, magic attacks, etc. Yay.
-There doesn't seem to be a way to skip that opening cutscene. Saving 6000 frames might be nice...
-I tested the reset trick, which is used for luck manipulation... which is pretty cheesy. It also costs 1000 frames or so. I used it in the first battle so that Assman picks up a card (+3 VIT!) instead of treasure I'd get at the end of battle anyway. In the future, however, I can probably just throw a well-placed rock or start the battle a frame later and manipulate things that way.
-I killed the first boss with Assman's own hand, netting him a level-up. VICTOLY IS MINE!
-The army name is "Bisq". I think a few regulars might find their way into our ranks... to be used as cannon fodder! AHAHAHA! Actually, I need to go back and try to manipulate myself some better troops when Bisq Faction initially forms. I know their elements aren't random, but their stats?
Are you sure this is the best possible set of answers? Or did you want the rest of your party's elements in a certain way?
Dromiceius wrote:
Fire element seemed a safe choice; I'll probably want a fire element wizard who can burn grass to find hidden treasure, and if most of my team is fire elemental, I can use the "witch trick" later on.
What element Denim is has no effect on the rest of the party; their elements are determined during his question/answer session. Anyway I think Fire is a bad choice because like half of the maps will be raining.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Are you sure this is the best possible set of answers? Or did you want the rest of your party's elements in a certain way?
No idea. But, I'm fairly certain it can't get much better than that. A few points won't make much difference anyway.
I wasn't aware that the party's elements were determined like that... I mean, they give you 4 male, 4 female, and one is of each element. I think it went wind, earth, fire, water, twice. It would be quite a surprise if that happened at random.
I agree with Boco that Fire isn't the best element. I remember that overall, the terrain in this game isn't very friendly to Fire elements. I think Thunder may be the best way, but I don't think Water has it too bad either. Ah, it's been too long for me to say with certainty.
Also, in the second fight, I understand why you hit Lans, but isn't that kind of a waste of frames seeing as how it caused Kachua to heal you? And I know that if she didn't heal you, she would have healed the other white knight (can't remember his name at the moment), but can't you luck manipulate it so that he doesn't take as much (or any) damage?
*doesn't understand luck manipulation in this game :/*
Luck manipulation is difficult, as the only opportunity in battle to influence the RNG seems to be at Denim/Assman's turn in that second training battle.
Hopefully someone else can make use of your observations, but this is a huge game and I only have time on weekends to really sit down and work on it. Even if I finish one battle a week, doing the entire game could take two years. :(
But, I'm fairly confident that I'll find some really cool trick if I keep at it long enough.
I understand what you mean. I imagine it would be very difficult to manipulate EVERYTHING right with one move. How exactly does the RNG work in this game? Is it solely restricted to where you move? How about how long you wait until choosing to move? Oh and what about those messages you turned off? Do you think they could affect the RNG?
I just thought I'd bring up some ideas that may be useful. I would DEFINITELY help you with this run if I knew all about the RNG and if we had a definite, planned out route.
I know that picking a different target and/or method of attack generally results in the same basic things happening, but with different outcomes; in one draft of the second battle, I threw a rock at Lans, and the white knight blocked two of the hits rather than taking it all on the nose... it should be possible to watch the RNG's memory address, and to thus predict combat outcomes, assuming I ever get around to doing the ASM hackery.
I doubt the messages would affect things at all, and I'm almost certain that time plays no role in anything, aside (possibly; haven't tested yet) from the frame where the mission is accepted. You know, "Fight it out!"
The position at which Denim stands at the end of his turn would probably affect AI instead of the RNG. But again, that's an assumption from a few hours of playing which hasn't been tested thoroughly.
All things considered, I would think AI manipulation will be more of a time saver than blocking hits. In the first mission after getting the battalion, it might be much easier to slay the leader if her goons would stand aside, for example.
It's also possible to save and quit mid-battle like I mentioned earlier, which may have the same effect as taking the turn differently. So, it's probably useless (since it adds about 1000 frames each time it's used) but that also requires more testing to be certain.
As for the route... well, it only splits in a few different points. From reading a walkthrough on gamefaqs, I'm still not sure if one is faster than the other, or has more battles.
I had a basic idea of the army I was going to try to build, but I seem to have deleted my notes.
Feck.
The number of troops I should have isn't certain, either. More troops need more exp, which means more standing around slaughtering goons. Fewer troops mean less turns taken, but will raise the enemy level.
I shall continue to investigate. Hopefully I'll have more useful information tomorrow.
Hmm, in that case, I think it might be best not for me to help until I completely understand how the RNG works. I've never really gone this far into the mechanics of a game before (though I've read about it in many threads), and I think it best that I'm not involved yet with playing the TAS.
I WILL however help with everything else. Ok so I've been trying to plan out what would work best. As far as routes go, I'm not completely certain. I DO think, however, that you shouldn't go the Lawful route. Why? Because that would make Denim Lawful, and the only good class with L ali. is Sword Master, and I don't think it'll be worth it. Although he can attack twice, he'll also take a lot of damage. Now you can obviously luck manipulate this, but I think the amount of manipulation total considering all the hits he'll take, you won't be done for years!
For males, I think the best basic classes are Berserkers (for N/C ali.) and possibly a Beast Master and either Ninja or Beast Master for L units. However, whips are really rare. Thing is, you won't get your first whip until Chapter 2, so you might end up with several Ninjas. Knights might be a decent choice very early on, but I think Ninjas are better since they can attack twice and have low weight. Just be sure to watch their health.
As far as Wizards go, I don't think you should consider them; period. Spells can take a huge amount of frames, especially when the Wizard levels up and the spells hit a larger area. Not only will you save TONS of frames because of that, but also because you save frames NOT SHOPPING for spells.
For Male Advanced classes, Terror Knights seem to be the best way for C ali., Sword Master for L, and possibly Dragoons for N. I probably wouldn't recommend Dragoons in the first place, but as far as N's go, that's the only good class available to them. Gunner will probably not be considered. Of course, you could only use members of a certain ali. so that you can have everyone be the same class for one alignment, but then comes in the conflict of "variety and enetertainment". You should decide what's best here.
For females, I think Archers are pretty much the only way to go. Valkyrie is a decent class, but as the Archer levels up, I'm sure they'll do tons more damage than Valkyries. Also, I think Archer is a good class because since they can attack from a distance, as long as the enemy stays in distance, the Archer won't have to move, therefore lessening their WT. That might be something to consider.
As far as miscellaneous classes go, I think Lizard Men are solid fighters who can deal and take a good amount of damage, and Hawk Men for their ability to fly and work well with nearly any type of weapon. That is, of course, if you decide to recruit any. It would be quicker to buy them at shops, but depending on how you play, it may just be a waste of time.
I hope this helps!
I think Beastmasters are better than Berserkers in every way, and should be used exclusively until Terror Knights are available.
For females, Archer is the best Job in the game, by far. It might also be nice to have a Witch in order to paralyse opponents, in which case she should be trained as an Archer as much as possible (spell hit percentage is based on DEX). Aloser, the best unit in the entire game, makes a rather wonderful witch, if you don't want to train one up from scratch, thanks to her advancing from level 1 as Archer (rather than 5 or 6).
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
I only suggested Berserkers since whips are so rare. Whether or not damage output on average is less because of this is something I don't know, but Beast Masters are really great for levelling VIT.
