I think Kejardon was silenced by Nintendo secret ops just as he was about to reveal the truth...
This made me think of a tidbit on Kej's SM documentation page:
http://jathys.zophar.net/supermetroid/kejardon/index.html (look at the Title.ips entry at the bottom)
No idea what that means...
Anyway, Kej is probably just being secretive until he can drop a bomb on us. Surprise is best served cold, like revenge.
The "beating an old horse" trend doesn't really help the discussion. If you know this is old hat and don't want to go down this road again, I don't know why you'd need to step in and let us all know that. Your silence would say that just fine, without the condescending negativity. :|
mmbossman wrote:
The 14% movie was obsoleted because it was old and very unoptimized by todays standards. After the 6% run was published, the category became obsolete, similar to the 16 star Super Mario 64 run.
This argument always makes me sad, because the comparison makes sense, but it always overlooks an important detail that makes the two cases totally different: the 16-star run doesn't do anything the 70-star run wouldn't also do, except for a few things that the 0-star run also does. There's only maybe a minute's worth of uniqueness in that run that you won't see on another published run. The 14% run of SM, by contrast, plays through the game in a way that neither the 6%, any%, nor the 100% runs do. You miss out on at around a half hour of uniqueness in a sub-hour run. Again, it's a good rule on paper, but it loses something in practice.
To clarify, I would think the best thing to do is divide the low% into two categories. They're radically different runs; why not have an OoB/no OoB split? OoB is an obvious, undebatable, and fairly unarbitrary type of glitch, so I think it'd be a good fit. The CT run is a little harder to make a rule for, but I think something like "follows plotline" works well for any RPG or adventure game. I know it's been said before, but I've yet to see a really reasonable rebuttal beyond strict categorical reasoning. Kant never did sit well with me.
I don't see how "the TAS obsoleted was sub-optimal" is applicable here. The discussion isn't whether or not the newer runs should have obsoleted the old ones; it's a question of "should these have ever been the same category at all?"
The 14% SM or any% glitched CT runs are both great examples. The argument for the obsoletion of the 14% was that it no longer fits the low % category. This is obviously true. But the 6% run only works using OoB glitching and serious abuse of game programming, doing things the programmers never even knew were possible and almost undoubtedly would have fixed if they had known; moreover, it never fights a boss.
This is different from the 14% run, which is able to maintain its low % by skipping both optional items (e-tanks, missiles, some beams) and by skipping items intended for pickup by the developers (speed booster, grapple beam, etc.). It doesn't have to do a completely game-breaking glitch: it only takes advantages of quirks in the game's physics. Mockball, short charge, etc. are all oddities or glitches which are both useful and harmless when performed. The 14% run also follows every major objective: kill four main bosses and enter Tourian, then kill MB and escape.
I feel like the decision to obsolete the 14% was made for two main reasons (and correct me if you think I'm wrong): the abundance of categories for SM already in place, and the (controversial) interpretation of the glitches used.
The former argument really has never held any water for anyone besides letter-of-the-law members who want everything to fit in a structured set of rules, and it just seems silly to be that systematic just for the sake of doing it. I am not saying the structure we have here is a letdown or problematic in general; it's good and necessary. But sometimes, believe it or not, it is okay to bend the rules. Sometimes it's okay to really bend the rules! These things are simply judgment calls and people should not be afraid to make them from time to time apart from "we have to have rules about these things." If things actually somehow did get out of hand down the road, then you could say "maybe we shouldn't do that." But you can't reasonably say "that road could potentially maybe be bad, so let's stay away."
The second argument also came up with the any% CT run. "A glitch is a glitch and both runs use glitches, therefore we can't have it be an low%, glitched (for SM 6%) or an any%, glitched (CT run) category. We have to obsolete the current low%/any% category." But there is an obvious and indisputable difference between the tricks in the obsoleted runs and the major gamebreakers in the current ones! Both runs effectively no longer play the game. The original runs did, using all sorts of cool glitches that skipped little things here and there but kept the plot and the majority of the game intact. They were entertaining to watch in a way that the new ones cannot reproduce. By obsoleting those runs, an entire way of playing through a game that we do not see in any other published runs of the game was pushed aside, for the sake of categorical niceties.
I've written a miniature essay here, which wasn't my intent. The point really should speak for itself anyway, but some people have trouble digesting that. As always, I respect the decisions of the guys in charge, and I don't think TASVideos is doomed if it doesn't re-publish these runs. But I really don't see how anyone can watch the obsoleted runs and not agree (whether you like the game/run or not) that something is missing now.
The submission text gave me a laugh. Well done. It's not often you can have a run's category and its description follow the same rules.
(it's not a bug in the submission: read the bottom!)
This was a lot more fun to watch than the previous runs in this category. Not that they were lacking or anything... I just found your style to be more entertaining. Yes vote.
Hacking and TASing, in my mind, really are very compatible communities. I actually found this site by watching Saturn's first segments of the ongoing Super Metroid: Redesign TAS. Until then, I didn't even know this site existed. I also did not know this hack existed until I saw this submission. So TASes of hacks can introduce fans of one community to the other. I think this is win-win-win.
Limiting the number of hacks to an arbitrary number seems artificial and poorly thought out. If there are, one day, six amazing Super Metroid or OoT or SM64 hacks, do you want to turn down potential runs of those just because someone said "this number is too much"? It's not like there's a floodgate of hack TASes coming in, and quality hacks will likely always be few and far between. I don't see a need for a policy restricting these runs unless that changes. Far better to evaluate these on a case-by-case basis.
As far as this hack goes... it's awesome. It would be a shame not to publish it. I hope we see more good hacks in the future... and more good TASes of them.
Finally watched this. Man, this game has so much running around... ugh.
Was moving the cursor in tune with the music during levelling on the Starmen fastest, or an entertainment/speed tradeoff? I was under the impression that the RNG was not affected by time, but this part made me unsure of that.
Good run, overall. Fun to watch, less fun to play.
I greatly enjoyed this run. I can hardly imagine anyone improving over Lord Tom's Metroid prowess.
Captain Forehead wrote:
It's funny, when you use turbo during the movie, you can hear pooping noises. I just had to say that. :)
I'm so glad you shared this meaningful insight with us. I just had to say that. :|
Ferret Warlord wrote:
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
I'm still convinced there are many more screen scrolling glitches in this game to be abused. If you look closely at this movie, you can see a moment where the room scrolls both horizontally and vertically! Granted, it's severely corrupted, but still... it shows the engine is capable of that.
Isn't that kinda like saying that the human head can spin 180 degrees if you break the neck first?
This, coming from the guy who did this run, is some sort of irony I'm sure, but I don't know what.
this is a pretty cool hack, but i would rather see a hack of ocarina of time because it was a better game. why hasn't any one made an ocarina of time hack? is it because it's so hard to make a hack of a 3D game?
Actually, I believe there have been attempts at OoT hacking. And for the record, a good hack is very difficult to make even for an older, 2d-generation console, even if you have apps and programs that have been designed specifically to hack said system/game. So doing that for anything past the 16-bit era is a major, major undertaking...
Lurkers can't vote, and I imagine admins can (and possibly already have) checked IP addresses to see if the suspicion brewing here is accurate.
It is entirely possible that the TASer has some sort of social disorder, though. That's not justification for odd behavior like this, but... don't be too harsh to judge.
If you have something but it's not ready to be revealed, don't say anything instead of saying "I have something awesome, but it's not ready to be revealed"
Do you have any idea who Kejardon is or why he's so respected by SM enthusiasts? Obviously not, or you'd know better than to talk to him like he's some random jerk keeping secrets.
#3 seems best. An any% with warps etc. should probably use #1 because the goal in that category is simply "fastest time" straight up. If a run is not of the "any%, no restrictions" type of category then it's already not going to be fastest... after that, why nitpick?
I have to think the subset of people who want a "100%, no speed/entertainment tradeoffs" is considerably smaller than those who'd like a 100% run with a few fun moments added in.
for MM, it wouldn't look so much different, we would only do less trips to the bomb shop and some other small changes
Oh, right, backwalking is faster than bomb-initiated slides, isn't it? There goes that idea. I guess it'd be shooting to entertain, not for fastest time, and that's a whole different thing altogether.
I do think both MM and OoT have a lot of playaround potential, though.
Derakon wrote:
Acheron: like the Super Metroid hacks that reduce the bomb timer to nothing? Yeah, that could be pretty interesting. Superflip all over the place...
Funny you mention that... there's also a "boost ball" item hack that allows ridiculously fast speed-trips through the game. Bundle it and the insta-bomb timer into a regular run of SM and we'd have a very fun run. But that's a discussion for another thread...
While it would obviously not be publishable, I can't help but wonder what a run with infinite bombs/bombchu cheats would look like. Maybe a cheat to shorten the bomb timer too, if that's possible.
1: You're a troll. Oh well, nothing we can do there.
2: You're young and completely unaware of how inappropriate and embarrassing you're acting, without any regard or appreciation for the way things work around here. Please take a break from this site for about five years, then come back and try again.
Is "100%, no out-of-bounds" too arbitrary? The purpose of the run would be pretty clear (go everywhere you're supposed to be able to go). Maybe even "100%, no glitches" if you'd like; I believe that category already exists somewhere around here.
A lot of people have an overriding need for static categorization. That's basically the argument that's being had (re-had?) here. I still see no reason not to have a variety of runs for every game, as long as they don't suck. The more passionate fans of a particular game or series will likely enjoy the diversity, and those who don't care are hardly hurt by the existence of 4+ runs.
Of course, most games don't call for more than one or two runs, because there just isn't a lot of difference between them. You have too many runs for a game when there's little discernable change between run A and run B or run C or run D. Each published run should be obviously different in scope and flow.
With that standard, the 14% would probably be a candidate for publication, because it is drastically different from the current low%. The 6% abuses major programming errors and skips all bosses and basically all goals; the 14% beats all required bosses, does not abuse major errors in programming, and fulfills the game's major goals. Moreover, you see a completely different style, path, and approach to the game in a 14% run than you do in the 6% or the any% runs.
A lot of people are referencing the Mario 64 16-star run as precedent. The problem with that argument is that you can see those same 16 stars gathered in other published runs, and they make up the vast majority of the run. There is very little different (maybe 5% of the total run? probably less) between a 16-star run and the other runs in terms of new tricks or game play. That's hardly a fair comparison.
Ultimately, it's the call of the guys in charge. Be the best source for a variety of runs? Or stick with the (mostly) clear categorization that is already in place, be a little pickier, for the sake of structure and keeping things small. There's nothing explicitly "bad" about either approach, it's just a question of what TASvideos' purpose. I find more fun in the variety, myself, and others seem to prefer the structure, so it's not a debate easily solved with democracy (and "let's take a giant vote on how to do everything!" is an idea that scares me). It is nice to be able to throw in your voice, and I do hope everyone's opinion is taken in consideration, but ultimately someone has to be disappointed, and someone else has to make the call on who to disappoint. C'est la vie.
Is there a good reference for what's involved in the encoding process? I have a pretty powerful machine, and I wouldn't mind helping out every now and then when time allows.
I've never understood why it's such a big deal to use the "sacrifices speed for entertainment" criteria. I much prefer the fun-to-watch run to the one that's technically faster but looks worse. So I guess I agree with 5-years-ago-Bisqwit in that aspect.
It's possible that someone could come along with an improvement in frames that takes the hit. This could technically lead to a lower frame count than your run. Assuming your run was published, I would think it would take more than this alone to justify obsoleting the run. If this theoretical second submission were to turn this game into a frame war over something so trite... well, I'd like to think that wouldn't happen. I don't think we'll see obsessive frame wars here; this isn't SM64. (And I think even an SM64 with better frames would be rejected if the camera work [entertainment value] were shitty.)
Omg I overlooked that part of your post. Kill me now, I don't deserve to live.
My sarcasm detector is going off.
I was being jovial in my original post; it's too bad that you can never really indicate intent over the internet. I was merely entertained by the oversight, nothing more.
(This ends a discussion about a thing on a forum.)
I have heard multiple people say that all separate parts of a no SJ run has been done, but that geocore (maybe some other room as well) basically has so many hard tricks you have to string together in one go that it is unrealistic that it would be done unassisted as of now. But a TAS should therfore be able to get 21%, which is pretty cool.
This is correct. Every part of the game is doable without SJ. Geocore (the room before Plasma Beam) just requires godly precision on the morph ball bomb jumps. Actually, a 21% run requires amazing bomb jumps on a very regular basis, but Geocore requires three of them, back to back, and if you fail any one of the jumps you have to do all three again.
Unless a new game-breaking glitch is found, 21% is the lowest possible even under TAS conditions. All four beams are required to beat Metroid Prime and to open multiple doors in the run, and the twelve artifacts are required to enter the final area of the game. Phazon Suit is required to beat Prime phase 2, and to get those you have to beat Omega Pirate (which requires X-Ray).That adds up to 18%, and you of course need morph ball, bombs, and missiles to open various doors and solve required puzzles.
Of the items that could MAYBE theoretically be skipped, I can only think of missiles. Technically, a SW could be used to bypass any missile doors. I don't think we'll see that happen though.
I note that your submission says you used POR(U).nds. I could not find this ROM, and I never have problems finding ROMs, so that was rather frustrating. I looked for alternatives, and after one or two desyncing ROMs, I found "Castlevania - Portrait of Ruin.nds" and it worked fine for me.
Watching this run would be significantly more entertaining if the emulator wasn't so sluggish, but that's not the fault of the game nor the author, and I'm honestly glad to have DS rerecording at all, but be warned if you don't like bad framerates.
The run itself was... hmm. Moving in this game is a little slower than most Castlevanias, I guess? I don't remember it this way, and it could have been emulator lag (though I don't think it was). I liked how quickly you end up in one of the pyramid portraits, good use of warping (even if it's monotonous to watch the warp travel). The use of the curse quest for money so early was also good; I wish I hadn't read the submission text first, or I would have been pleasantly surprised. Of course, buying and selling is boring, but that can't be helped.
The highlight of the run, IMO, is the Dracula + Death. For those who haven't played this game on DS hardware, this fight is much harder than anything else in the game. Assuming you play through the whole game normally, going for 100% map completion and killing every boss and leveling along the way, you will still die in a couple of hits. It's not the hardest fight in the Castlevania series, but it is significantly harder than anything else in this game and will regularly slaughter you even at the proper level and gear.
So, with that in mind, watching Jonathan and Charlotte whittle away at Death with their holy sword and hover boot nonsense is pretty entertaining. Before anyone asks, Death and Dracula do not share HP, and you only have to kill one of them, and since Death has significantly less health than Dracula it's better that he hit him (he also has less frames where he's untargetable, compared to Dracula).
The run stagnates a little again at the True Dracula fight, but that can't be helped. I was honestly surprised you could do enough damage to survive the instant death bat wing nonsense. I can't remember if hitting the wings damages Drac's health. if it doesn't, I wonder if it's possible to manipulate that fight so he doesn't use them; it's pretty boring when he does it twice in a row.
I vote yes because I can't see any obvious improvements and the run is more or less entertaining. Again, it'd be more satisfying at full speed (which wasn't an option for me). And I think this game will really shine if someone does a no-skips run.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
o.o? The Holy Claymore is purchaseable that early in the game? Or is it based upon monies had that opens up better n better armor n goodies?
