hah, that's funny. So if I had to guess, I would say we are using the same strategy -- using crouch to get further into the wall. But with your timing, you were able to cancel the crouch immediately into a standing jump. I'll try this next.
First, I used my slower crouch version to make this new video. Hopefully it will be obsoleted very soon!
Link to video
3,655 console frames = 60.816508 seconds. 413 time units = 0:59 game clock.
I think 412 time units will change the clock display to 0:58, so if I can get the better wall clip, I may jump straight to 0:57 on the game clock. We'll see.
Challenger, I didn't want to ask for help until I could do it for myself. So I found an alternate way of jumping through the thin wall at the beginning of the new Level 16 route. Lol.
But now that I've done so, I wonder if you have any pointers to help me with this wall clip. No matter what I do, I'm not able to exactly replicate the method you use for the double turn + standing jump. Every time I try, he just bounces back off the wall.
So the alternative method I found is to do the double turn, then start to run + crouch. This cancels the run, and apparently gets the Prince deeper into the wall without falling through. From there, I'm able to safely initiate a standing jump through the wall. Of course, this extra crouch is going to cost an extra second, so I would like to figure out the better method.
I'm thinking theoretically, I should be able to start running & cancel into a late standing jump before he is stuck in the running animation. But it doesn't look like you did that in either video (GT1 test, and full tas).
By the way, one time I messed up the warp pattern. I think I did the double u-turn too early, so he didn't fall. But since this brings you back to the original position, I just tried again, and got the fall the 2nd time, for the exit glitch to Zero^2. Because of the extra motions, the video corruption was different, but otherwise, the warp to Level 16 + Guard Sprite + no scramble was good. The funny video corruption made lots of movement in the background while exploring level 16. Not as prominent as my "Corrupt 18" video, but same idea.
Here's the result of my First Attempt to play full level 16 with GT1 & wall clip (used my crouch method). And this actually was my first attempt. I'm surprised I didn't make any mistakes, or forget anything, after not playing this level for a couple of months. Lol.
I did an RTA count for the new TAS run.
Time starts at frame # 1,557. This is the first frame the Prince appears on-screen at the beginning of Level 1.
Time stops at frame # 26,241. This is the first frame the Select Menu appears on-screen at the end of Level 20.
24,684 console frames = 06:50.72358.
This emulator frame count matched the time of my camera recording the playback on the monitor.
So, if you can tighten up the Level 16 Boss room, we should be below 6:50.5.
Unless some further improvement can be made to the setup, I think we're just about done! (Only other thing is dying on Level 19 instead of Level 17.)
Altogether, the new setup saves a full second. This crouch and fall before entering Level Zero saved about 40 frames. The new double u-turn movement before entering Zero^2 saves another 6 frames. And avoiding button scramble saves 14-16 frames for Tas (and 1.5 seconds for humans!)
So that's an improvement of 60-62 frames!
Now that the button scramble issue has been resolved, human theory should be very, very close to TAS, certainly within 1 second on all select menus combined.
So I think a very tight human run could reach 6:53.xx.
I just watched the full run. It's a dream come true! Now I just have to do it with my hands! lol.
Only thing I noticed was the boss on level 16.
If you have already begun the running-jump command in the previous room, you should be able to continue with the jump deep into the boss room before pausing, and allow all of this free motion to occur during "free time" of the boss music.
You can pause very late as long as your spacing is right to avoid boss' sword, or as long as you are able to hit kill button before entering his immediate attack range (so as not to trigger a post-death attack).
I suspect with this particular setup, you should be able to save at least 5 more animations, maybe more. That's at least 0.33 seconds.
I just crunched the numbers on that new Level 16 route. Here, the Prince reaches room #6 in 38.933 seconds (this would be room #8 in the traditional GT1 route), whereas, my GT1 record reaches this room in 44.636 seconds. So your shortcut represents an improvement of at least 5.7 seconds. (This will be another great improvement for the All-20-Levels No-Warp category, using GT1.)
Applying this to the Static Guard Sprite, a slight improvement can be made by an immediate running jump to the first gate, avoiding the gate button, and thus avoiding some extra lag as the gate will not being opening while you are in the 2nd room.
This new route should also provide much lag improvement, as we will be avoiding all of those spikes. Therefore, this represents a huge save for the new Warp-16 route, enough to very easily bring to projection down below 7 minutes.
I've been very busy these past few weeks, and not really any time to start working on the individual level videos. However, the other day, I decided to see what was going on with that alternate route through the walls and spikes at the beginning of Level 16. Without looking again at your movements, I basically just went for it, and did it first try. Every wall clip and running jump somehow perfectly lines up to avoid all the spikes. That's pretty hilarious. Anyway, I suppose this means the alternate lower route should be pretty easy to master for Blind Level 16 on the new route.
Hopefully I can find some time in the next week to do a couple of demos comparing the high route and low route, and see how much time is saved. After that, we'll see if I have time to start knocking out some of the Individual Level videos.
After all the practice I've had playing these levels over the past couple of years, and considering how similar the route will be to GT1, I suspect I won't need too much time to record a good World Record speedrun in the ballpark of 7:15. But, it'll still require SOME time, and I just haven't had any lately. :(
If the above calculations are fairly accurate, this of course means that a Game Genie "No Gates" run could be somewhere around 6:55 !!!!!
Muuaaahhahahahaahaahaaaaaaaahh !!!
>:•)
Here's a rough estimate for the new route. (I haven't begun recording individual levels yet, so I don't yet know exactly how long the gate skips actually take.)
+45.088 seconds to reach the 2nd room of level 16 (my demo).
+93.867 seconds to reach level 17 after Jaffar reset (your demo).
Levels 17-20, GT1 = +277.336 seconds.
slower gate skips for levels 18 & 19 = +16 seconds.
total = 432.291 seconds = 7:12.291
Ridiculous!
I'm uploading my setup demos right now. I'll add them below. Interestingly, the setup is unaffected by the guard exit being 1st animation (first demo) or 2nd animation (second demo). So the select button during screen transition before guard room does not have to be precise, which is nice.
Challenger's New Warp-16 Setup -- 2 demos -- 43.36192 seconds.
Link to video
2,606 console frames to reach Level 16.
I haven't found any alternate steps to the new warp-16 setup that might remove the Dead Jaffar problem. However, I've been reliably repeating this warp with the better quick fall in the 2nd room on both passes (pressing Jump at edge to fall sooner, before turning to jump down to the lower level). So the quick fall saves a few animations on each pass.
I've found it to be easier to reset scrambled buttons just after I turn and make the final jump in the Zero^2 room (while the Prince is flying around). So once Level 16 starts, the buttons are already fixed.
At the beginning of Level 16, a running jump is well spaced to reach the gate without triggering a bad collision, and without opening the gate (avoiding extra lag in the next room). Only 2 running jumps, to clear the 2 spikes, with good wall collision, then revert to normal GT strats thru Warp Potion. (Or is all that wall skipping really faster? How are you running through all those spikes without getting caught?)
After Warp Potion, I had an idea for the room before the Boss. If you do a U-turn fall & grab the edge instead of falling forward, you are far enough away from the spikes to do a running jump over the spikes for a good gate collision. When you fall forward, you're too close to the spikes, and you will jump through them for bad gate collision. I haven't tested it yet, so the U-turn may still be slower.
On Level 18, the earliest jump through the first gate skip will have a good wall collision before climbing. I already mentioned the U-turn after the 2nd gate skip. The rest of Level 18 is pretty straight forward, as is Level 19.
If we can't find any better alternate Warp-16 setups, I'll probably start making some Console videos soon.
As practice continues, I think I'm getting pretty consistent with these gate skips. =)
I did a quick run of Level 19 tonight. After the 2nd wall clip, the spacing works out fine for a u-turn after the gate skip to avoid falling, then turn & jump across. So Level 19 won't be too much slower than the various GT sprites.
16 only has 2 important gate skips, and 17 has none, so really only level 18 will be a major concern for time, and a major concern for human practice!!
The U-turn after gate skip can also be done on level 18 at the 2nd gate, but since the gate is facing the other direction, this setup will require you to step forward to the edge before jumping across.
So 4 important gate skips on level 18, with the u-turn probably requiring tons of practice before a serious run!!
Looks like things are coming together nicely! Can't wait to see what the preliminary TAS time will look like, for comparison to GT1.
I couldn't wait to get home tonight after work to try the new setup.
Took a few tries. :D
Seems pretty consistent, so definitely human viable, and console viable. I'll probably make a console proof video next week. Will be very busy this weekend with work & family stuff.
That gate skip is gonna be tricky. Feels like the timing is frame perfect: turn too soon & the trick fails; turn too late and you get repelled away from the gate by the very wide hit box. On the other hand, wall clip is very easy, because the wall won't bounce you from behind.
Will be interesting to see how much slower 18 & 19 will be with this tough gate skip.
Anyway, great job. Your crazy experiments have paid off. As you said, it's a little disappointing that all the FGT & GT1 work is no longer useful -- but very exciting to create and test and learn this new route! It will be a fun challenge to eventually make a speedrun for it!! :)
And I still need to make another demo of best GT1 setup for "All 20 Levels." No matter how much time you save on setup with other sprites, GT1 will still be fastest By Far over the course of 19 levels.
Best way to check for clock bug after Warp-16 is to input Debug Code to activate Debug Menu, and do Level Jump to a level that begins with a Princess Scene, such as Level 2. This Princess Scene will clear all video corruption, and allow you to see if there is a clock bug.
I have tried this, and found no clock bug. Therefore, I'm sure it will be faster to die on level 19, rather than level 17.
:D
Another question that's never been fully addressed is whether or not it is legal to use Debug input code to reset the START+SELECT MENU.
It is typically not allowed because it activates KILL BUTTON, and provides access to Debug Menu (Level Jumping, and Health Restore).
However, in the case of these setups, KILL BUTTON is already activated, so Debug Code does not affect that. And the Sound Menu has been generally established as a legal & legitimate tool. So in this case, the only reason to use Debug Code is to enable Sound Menu, which has been temporarily disabled by the Warp Glitch.
Assuming we can use Debug Code in this speedrun to enable Sound Menu, it should be faster to play Sound #1 during death sequence to Continue faster without Exiting.
It will also save several seconds by playing Sound #1 at the end of Levels 16, 17, 18, and 19, as well as save 6 seconds at the beginning of the Level 19 Boss Fight. This would be at least 12 seconds saved between death, end of Levels, and boss 19.
Wow. Of course we're all familiar with this terrible sprite, but I'm surprised the minor gate-skipping ability has been preserved. Now I'm curious to know if all other setups for this bad sprite just happen to also have this ability (and we never tested it), by virtue of the strange wide hit box. (Remember, you can get this sprite at the warp-6 hole -- and the warp-8 hole in the 6th room, where I once managed warp-4 and warp-12.)
Check level 19 spike death for Jaffar status reset. If you can reach those spikes sooner than 17 spikes, relative to level start, you might save a few frames by playing 17 & 18 in the dark. (This is assuming no clock bug.)
Also, on level 16, you should be able to copy my GT1 movements exactly for all of the climbs, as there will not be any interference by gates until after the Warp Bottle.
Since there are no more warp glitches after Level 5, it may not be necessary to reset Clock Bug on Level 17. You can try a test to see whether the Clock Bug will cause more than 5 seconds worth of lag on levels 17-20. If it does not, then it may be faster to avoid the reset on level 17, and just allow clock bug to continue. Of course, it would be best to find a setup that prevents the bug, but in the meantime, whatever is technically fastest may be best.
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I am well aware of this alternate GT sprite. I never imagined there would be a way to collect it this fast, though! The setup I use is similar to original GT1, so of course I disregarded this one as inferior, since GT1 is able to play all other levels much faster after the setup is complete.
But this requires a new consideration, since the setup is so fast. wow!
It's unfortunate, though, that such an ugly and clunky GT alternative should take the prize, simply because the setup is so fast. lol.
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I didn't get an exact frame count on these two files, but here's the rough RTA estimate:
first one was about 7:37.895892 (or maybe 2-3 frames faster);
the second was about 7:24.11858 (or maybe 2-3 frames faster).
That's ridiculous. I think there's just no way we're going to find a GT1 setup that's 30+ seconds faster than current discoveries. When you found the 10 second improvement, that was insane. But now we need 30 more!!!!!!!! :(
wow, so that youtube video was Level Zero & Level Zero^2.
the U-turn merged the split position and grabbed the ledge, so that must be slightly faster than stepping across.
The next Single-Up then, performed in Level Zero, warped to Level Zero^2.
If you let the guard kill you, and continue this setup, you may be able to do the rest of the setup without video corruption, and this will show you what is Zero or Zero^2. Zero^2 will have the ghost cloud rubble staying on-screen while you are there in the 2nd room.
Anyway, once inside Level Zero^2, you are jumping directly into the rubble for instantaneous glitch access. This is the rubble that is normally only accessed from the first room, when you are jumping into the hole, and pausing to exit before coming into this 2nd room.
This 2nd room has a weird property where the rubble clouds do not immediately activate, so you have a few seconds to get away from the rubble on the lower level, while climbing up to the mid and high levels. By the time you get up there, both rubble clouds are active. If you had turned and gone back down, the lower rubble would also trigger some glitch; usually an instant warp to Zero^3 with split position, and wrong room visuals (sometimes caves, or exit door room). -- you can't see this stuff unless you clear the video corruption by letting the guard kill you at the beginning of the setup, as I mentioned.
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So this new Zero^2 setup for GT1 took 50.566 seconds (from first frame of level 1 until first frame with GT1 on-screen). That'll be faster when segment #1 is cleaned up.
The previous best setup (using the hole in the 5th room) was about 60.95 seconds, so this is a solid 10 second improvement. Now we just have to confirm Level 1 lag for GT1, level 4 lag, and level 16/17 lag; as well as whether or not this setup will allow for a clean 16. When we jumped into the Guard Room with the FGT setup, it seemed to always produce a Clock Bug in level 16.
Assuming everything checks out, this may be the key to a sub-8!!!!!!!!!
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The alternate setup allowed for clean 16, so that may be a good sign. Of course it'll be too slow, but it seems it was an important step in leading to the discovery of the 50 second setup.
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The instructions on pausing before the Prince turns blue, or pausing before he disappears sounds extremely similar to the instructions I told you when acquiring GT3. haha!
This 2nd room is full of magic. :)
I went ahead and uploaded this new Level Zero^2 video for fun. Maybe it'll give you some more ideas. I don't think it'll help with the GT1 setup though.
Link to video
I did the wall clips on either side of Boss Room on Level 19. It's pretty funny, but nothing useful.
After you finish Boss Fight, and fall down to the next room, you can clip through the wall by the button, and clip back into the Boss Room to fight all the Bosses again.
Inside Boss Room, you can clip out of the room on either side. But in both cases, thick walls prevent going anywhere, so you just get bumped back into the Boss Room. The funny thing is, if you clip to the Left, you can see the next room, then when you come back to the Boss Room, whoever was there before disappears, and Jaffar summons the Guard. (The Battle starts over.) Whereas, if you clip to the Right, you will see the previous hallway, then come back and the Jaffar Intro plays again, and you must wait. Meanwhile, the most recent Boss will be there also waiting, and when the Intro finishes, Jaffar sends him away, and Summons the Guard again. (The Battle starts over.) With good timing, you can Kill the previous Boss & Guard within the span of a couple of animations, and it sounds pretty funny.
Also, if you clip at the correct time, you can see Strobes in the Next Room (White or Yellow). Very cool seeing the Next Room lit up with Yellow Strobes. Also, if you get the timing right during the Yellow Strobes, you can clip out of the room, and back into the Battle Room just in time to fall; so in the span of a few animations, you're in Battle, Next, Battle, Next.
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I also did a funny Level Zero^2 setup where the Prince turns Blue (slow fall bottle), and runs in place until you jump through a wall. I never realized this before, but in Zero^2, every Prince Sprite configuration has partial gate skipping abilities, as he can step through closed gates from left to right. The setup also creates brilliant rainbow sparkles video corruption for blind level zero^2. I made a video. Maybe I'll upload it for fun.
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I did the warp-4 from hole #4 several times as we've been talking about. With the gate closed, I did a running jump into the room with the rubble from a couple of different measurements. I also tried "up" jump, and u-turn. But every position seems to be getting the clock bug. Also getting warp-4 with the clock bug for non-GT1 sprites, like the warp-6 sprite (the one you get in Level Zero).
I think the only way to fix it will be to try something different in one of the previous steps in the setup. Something needs to change to get a different result. Otherwise, the clock bug lag may cost more time than the old route to the far warp-4 room. (You would also lose time with an Exit at the beginning of level 5 to reset the clock, before attempting the Warp-16 glitch.)
Hmmm, maybe this is why we were messing up GT1 setup when playing without TAS. I noticed the TAS turns left very late, to grab ledge before single-up to initiate Warp-Zero. I had been holding left very early to make sure I didn't miss the turn when the loose panel is falling. I'll try some more. Every detail counts!
wow. How have I not thought of that yet. Lol. I've jumped into every other rubble spot in the game, except there.
It seems every position of the Prince can affect the warp differently. So maybe you can go back through the gate, and do a running jump under the closed gate, and see if that fixes the clock bug. Or perhaps standing jumps back and forth. If the spacing is right, you can run through without jumping.
I wonder if Game Genie Route can use this Warp-4 strategy. :O
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Also, don't forget about the possible slight improvement on level 16 boss, by hitting select later, or by trying the double-crouch technique for a deeper jump into boss territory.
That new strategy on Level 18 will be safer for humans, and more consistent. The original strategy of hitting "down" to stop at the ledge is risky, because too soon can make you miss the climb, and too late can make you lose time or fall.
This new test clocks it at roughly 8:06.748 by RTA counting. Once the new Warp-4 setup is added, I think it will be enough to break 8 minutes, even with the extra lag; assuming it does not negatively affect Warp-16 viability.
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Question: why did you press A to hold the ledge at the Warp-16 drop on Level 5? Is it necessary to manipulate the timing because of the changes in the setup? With the previous setup, I have not needed to manipulate the timing of that climb-down, and just let the Prince fall as soon as he finishes the climbing animation. (No button presses after Down.)
Haha!! And I got an excellent video for Level 19, with both wall clips!!!
This was exactly what I wanted to do for all parts, so 100% execution. So it'll be up to Challenger's TAS Machines to brainstorm any improvements.
I actually improved the back half by 3 frames over my previous best. I saved 130 frames on the first wall clip, and 122 frames on the second wall clip, for a total improvement of 255 frames over my previous best.
The frame count is 4,744 console frames = 78.9366660063492 seconds.
The password is 496 time units, with 1:10 displayed on the clock. I think it's possible a 495 or 494 will change the display down to 1:09. But this may not be obtainable with current strategies; even though Challenger was able to save some time on Level 19, he was not able to improve upon my game clock count of 528 time units. So there may not be enough movement improvements available to get down to 1:09.
With a solid 4 seconds being saved by these wall clips, the Warp-16 TAS Route should be down around 8:07.3141, by RTA counting.
And for my "All 20 Levels" projection, we're down to 81,806 console frames = 22:41.191589231746. Nice!
I'm thinking if you gave "All 20 Levels" the works, it might get all the way down below 22:30. :O
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Gate Thief #1 - Level 19 - 1:10 - 496 - 4744 - 60 fps.
Link to video
4,744 console frames = 78.9366660063492 seconds.
I made a nice video for Level 3. With the wall clip to catch the checkpoint, the level can be finished at least 13.744 seconds faster (826 console frames). With tight select menu usage during death, I also managed to get a 1:08 displayed on the clock, with the password showing 485 time units (1:08.470588).
The recording clocks in at 4,680 console frames, which equals 77.871753 seconds (the difference in real clock and game clock is due to holding select menu up while death music plays).
I'll add the video below, after it's done uploading. And I'll check level 19 tomorrow.
More on the Level 3 clip:
The mechanics work in such a way that if you try to clip through a wall that is 2+ units thick, the Prince will bounce back, slightly below ground level, then pop up to the ground, so the game thinks it's a "landing" from above, and the active spikes cause death from "landing" on them. The spikes don't have to be there for the Check Point to be acquired. Simply "seeing" the Check Point room saves progress. However, it is convenient to have the spikes right there, as otherwise, you would have to go die somewhere else before you could access the checkpoint progress.
In order to do this clip when the wall is 2+ units thick, you must approach the wall, then turn away from it. The Prince must complete the turning motion for 1 animation before you can turn back to the wall. When turning back, continue holding forward through the turn, and the Gate Thief will begin running in place. In this particular setup, there is 1 full unit of wall before the edge of the screen. In order to get out of the looping run animation, and extend the Prince's hit box past 1 unit, and thus, into the next room, you have to do a running jump. Depending on the timing of his stride, half the jump sounds will result in an early wall collision and failure, while the other half will put him far enough into the wall to cross the edge of the screen. So you have to pick the correct running jump timing in order for this to work.
However, as we have seen in Challenger's test video for Level 19, a running jump is not needed in order to clip through a 1-unit wall that has a floor on the other side.
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Gate Thief #1 - Level 3 - 1:08 - 485 - 4,680.
Link to video
4,680 console units = 77.871753142857142857 seconds.
I can already tell that the wall clip at the top of level 19 will be faster than the normal route. The wall clip at the bottom may also save a little bit, but not as much.
It may be possible to do a wall clip on the left side of the Boss Room in Level 19. Theoretically, it should be the same spacing as the clip in Level 3 (see below), with 1 unit of wall before the edge of the screen. With a good clip, we may be able to temporarily "see" the room after the Boss Fight, before being pushed back into the Boss Room. I wonder if this will cause any chaos with the Battle Programming.
I found a good setup to fall through the floor on Training Level 2, room #3, to fall down into the lower half of the level. It's not possible to bring "Invincibility Mode" into Training, but if there was a similar pattern in the game, it might be possible to fall through a floor and land safely.
That picture you made of the Prince hanging in Level 12, you can put rubble there, and do an "up" glitch. I've done some pre-glitch buffers in other places, then come to Level 12 to try this. I haven't found anything useful yet. In some cases, it resets Level 12 (basically a Warp-12) with excellent glitchy video corruption.
I'm having trouble with your new setup. In your latest video, after the guard, and the single-up, you stay in "Corrupt Level Zero", and navigate to "hole #4", climb up and back down to exit.
I've been trying to copy this setup exactly, and it never works. My result is that I have to jump through "hole #1" twice. Even if I do it correct the first time, I come back to level 1, and it's still the warp-6 sprite, and not gt1 yet. So I do it again, and then finally it's gt1. Furthermore, whenever this happens, I'm getting the clock bug on level 16.
However, if I go to "hole #4", turn and fall, this is perfectly fine. GT1 on first attempt, and no clock bug later.
Do you have any idea what I might be doing wrong? I think this isn't a huge problem, because turning and falling may only lose a few animations, not enough to ruin the whole setup. But it's still frustrating that I can't figure out what's going wrong. Did you take note of any variations in your movement where this was happening to you?
