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Posted: 8/31/2015 8:05 PM
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Alyosha
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Joined: 11/30/2014
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Well here is a test WIP. I saved about 30 frames compared to Walker Boh in 1, and ~2 second in mountain 2. I think I'll just stick with all bonuses like the previous one and not worry about all veggies. There is a lot to consider here. One thing I noticed is an 11 frame rule for improvements in both the level and the score screen. It got me stuck figuring out what was going on for quite a while. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25199078778548517 @mtvf1: That all veggies run is pretty interesting, but the FDS version seems like it has much different mountains, and even veggie placement, compared to US version. EDIT: I can't get the current publication to sync at all, if anyone is able to please let me know how you did it. EDIT 2: seems like holding 'A' in between levels changes the mountain layout, will have to test to find the best one. EDIT 3: I tried playing my movie on neshawk and it desynced right away. All the loading frames lined up correctly, but the mountains were different. The game must be doing something every cycle with RNG.
Posted: 8/30/2015 4:10 PM
Post subject: Ice Climbers
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Alyosha
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I'm thinking of working on this game next, but I wanted some input on the goal choice in the original. Would this be considered '100%' by current standards? Should I include collecting all the veggies? Any input appreciated here.
Posted: 8/30/2015 11:13 AM
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Alyosha
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@Radiant: Ah I was supposed to refer to the snes port there but made it general instead. You are right the original PC game is much better. I will correct that. @mklip2001: -If you are standing in just the right spot, the game doesn't detect you standing on that square, so you can walk right by it. -In order to float correctly you have to hold down, and that makes you grab ledges you are near. I tested running in that spot and it took the same time. EDIT: oh yeah, the crouching thing doesn't put you close enough to grab the ledge. -snakes are instant kills, but I didn't test it so I test it and see, but my guess is Nitsuja would have done so if it was possible. EDIT: nope, nothing happens. -The glitch doesn't let you walk through doors, I guess they are still considered objects you can interact with, and not just walls. -The PC version has another level that makes this part make much more sense, its too bad it's left out in the snes port.
Posted: 8/28/2015 1:36 PM
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25126562015960098 well finally made it to the end. Not many more improvements overall. In level 3 I manipulate the ghosts slightly better, saving about 0.5 seconds. In level 4 I manipulate an enemy better with 2 sword strikes instead of 1, saving about 1 second. Nothing much changed in level 5. So total about 3 seconds of savings, means that ~16 extra seconds of lag and loading time are in this movie compared to the original. I still need to go over it some more before submitting, but I can't imagine much will change.
Posted: 8/28/2015 1:51 AM
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25115734793474381 Seeing krankdud's suggestions made me go over everything yet again. I'm glad I did, the result is now back to being faster then the published run! Please replace the movie file with that one. I will replace the temp encode probably tomorrow. EDIT: For easier comparison to the published run, here it is converted to PAL, since its really easy to do: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25127482148196260 EDIT2: temp encode updated
Posted: 8/28/2015 1:22 AM
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Alyosha
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Krankdud wrote:
Nice to see someone working on this! On 4-3, there's a quicker method to do the zips that I found some time ago. When you get in the wall, all you need to do is release jump after getting in the wall, hold jump, hit left once, and then ball to zip. Works on each one. Video reference if needed: http://www.twitch.tv/krankdud/c/6950101?t=8m57s Also I noticed you went really far to the right at the 5-2 boss skip, you only need to hit the trigger for the boss fight and you can go left immediately.
Oh that is neat, I didn't think of doing it that way, you are right it definitely saves time. Yeah I did lose a few frames on that 5-2 skip part without realizing it. I am in the process of going over my run again and will put in these improvements. I have found quite a bit of savings already
Posted: 8/27/2015 3:16 PM
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Alyosha
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Sorry net is slow here, just got done uploading, should work now.
Posted: 8/27/2015 11:39 AM
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Alyosha
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Mothrayas wrote:
Considering the differences in timing and difficulty changing the whole run, could you make a new submission?
Yeah I will make a new submission. But if it isn't a big hassle, I would prefer this one gets officially rejected, rather then me cancelling it. That way all of this information and discussion can be concisely summed up and brought to a close.
Posted: 8/26/2015 11:30 PM
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25091355175332190 ^ Difficulty 4 complete. That wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it would be. Turns out hardly anything was really different, last boss took the same number of hits even. Well might as well use difficulty 4 then.
Posted: 8/26/2015 5:15 PM
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Alyosha
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In terms of the TAS, the only perceptible difference in difficulty is the longer boss fights. I just did Act-1 on difficulty 4, the level ends 200 frames later, mostly because of the time it takes to set the difficulty, and beat the boss takes slightly longer. Here is Act 1: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25085556886562893 I'd probably have to farm a few extra specials along the way too, but those aren't tough to get.
Posted: 8/26/2015 1:46 PM
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Alyosha
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Oh more Umihara Kawase nice, good luck on that Samsara! I remember watching this a while back and thinking it was already practically perfect, but already over 100 frames saved on 00, nice!
Posted: 8/26/2015 12:55 PM
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Alyosha
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New discovery! Expecting I will need to redo it in PAL, I tried seeing how far off my movie file would be. Turns out it syncs perfectly! Well after I adjust for pressing start a few frames earlier and removing some blanks. Even bosses work! Well that is a welcome surprise. I will post a test file shortly. I don't think I really know what is going on, but I don't have to redo everything so good enough for me. EDIT: actually , RNG works too. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25082083333228023 and here it is. 8:40, wow.
Posted: 8/26/2015 12:35 PM
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Alyosha
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^I mean same frame in the AVI (not in the fm2 file) OOps, wait I didn't read it right, nevermind! Yeah it is different. Hmmm, it's funny how the idea that they run at the same speed got propagated around seemingly everywhere I look. Oh well, that's what I get for not checking myself.
Posted: 8/26/2015 12:29 PM
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Alyosha
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I tested my movie file with Pal flag on and off. It's much closer then fsvgm's GIFs seem to indicate, in fact I get no visual difference at all. The player entered morph ball mode at the same frame in the AVI, and by frame 540 the movie was still syncing and the player was in visually the same location. Shortly after that is does de-sync due to an enemy being in a slightly different spot. I cannot reconcile this with how obviously different fsvgm's GIFs are. Is anyone else willing to test this out?
Posted: 8/26/2015 11:42 AM
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Alyosha
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Out of curiosity, was the final boss so much faster because you used up less special shots fighting only one miniboss in 5-2? Your 5-3 fight makes the published run's fight look really cheap.
Actually no, if you watch the published run, he jumps on his head immediately and proceeds to use specials from there. This is does very very little damage compared to hitting him in the chest. I guess Luke simply didn't know he could do more damage. Oh you are right I will add Arc, it always helps to have people improve your work and make you look a second time. As for speed tricks, well, all you have to do is hold B. I didn't see morph ball speed even in Jorf's world record. Maybe the game is just so rare, and the controls so non-nonsensical, that it isn't known? Even in real time this would save ~5 seconds just speeding through the first parts of most of the levels.
Posted: 8/26/2015 12:24 AM
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25069960369717055 Done with level 2. I found a 1 second improvement towards the end where Nitsuja is climbing the small platforms. Nitsuja turns around and jumps up platform, then turns back around and jumps across. I step forward and jump up. This is the only improvement I found. You can see it at 3:32 in the published encode. So combined with the level 1 improvement, I am at 1.5 seconds ahead. In actual file length, I am about ~6 seconds of lag behind.
Posted: 8/25/2015 7:28 PM
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Alyosha
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Ahh ok, thanks for the explanations. This game seems to be really unique then. Well I will leave this run to its fate and await an official ruling. So maybe if other cases such as this come up there will be a (modern) precedent to follow. Back to PoP2 for me.
Posted: 8/25/2015 6:24 PM
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Alyosha
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Hmmm, but why doesn't running the ROM I named (USA) run the same as the (E) one if I turn off PAL emulation? Instead it runs much closer to the original PAL version. Actually there seem to be 4 speeds to run the game at depending on how I set the emulator. (E) - with PAL emulation (E) - without PAL (USA) - without PAL (USA) -with PAL The first and third are pretty close, but the other 2 are way different, weird. The game seems to be doing something on its own to compensate. I guess the question is if the game is truly intended to run in either region (even if its not an exact match) meaning some specific code somewhere is written specifically to compensate for the region. Well not like I know where in the ROM that code would be.
Posted: 8/25/2015 5:03 PM
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Alyosha
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Oh also there was some discussion of this in the previous submission thread. here If you rename the rom with a (USA) tag and then run it, it does indeed run in NTSC mode with the same speed as the original (EUROPE) rom runs in PAL. It sems like the emulator ignores movie and other settings, maybe an emulator glitch. I don't know the technical details of what the emulator is doing here though, but this may be how they got the same timings. Might be something worth checking out in Bizhawk too?
Posted: 8/25/2015 4:47 PM
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Alyosha
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Encode is public now sorry I missed that. @fsvgm777: Interesting, I remember seeing a quote from Bisqwit saying he saw no visual difference between the two:
Bisqwit wrote:
I tested the ROM with "-pal 1" option of fceu, and I couldn't see a difference between its timing and the timing of the previous AVI. I think the ROM automatically adjusts and thus works properly even if played in NTSC.
Yet the difference seems obvious enough in your GIFs, I wonder what went wrong here. Or perhaps he meant that the game runs properly with either setting, and over time this got mistranslated to runs at the same speed? We need a judge!
Posted: 8/25/2015 2:54 PM
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Alyosha
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In fact even that message in the original publication is a bit misleading. The game was only released in Europe, hence there is no equivalent rom with a (USA) for example, there is only one ROM. It's not that Luke picked the wrong version, it's the only one. However it is true that the game can recognize the region setting, (I did put this in my submission comments) so NTSC is proper.
Posted: 8/25/2015 2:17 AM
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Alyosha
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Its not a complete redo. 'Running speed' in ball mode doesn't take effect in the air. So it doesn't change everything. The biggest impact is on long straightaways. I'm back to the start of level 3 and 600 frames ahead of the rough draft run.
Posted: 8/24/2015 10:48 PM
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Alyosha
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New discovery (for me at least) It seems even morph ball mode has 'running' speed. You can activate it by unmorphing and remorphing while holding down B. It is subject to the same 6 frame rule as running. you have to hold down B for at least 6 frames before remorphing again. This will save significant time. Let's go fast!
Posted: 8/24/2015 2:12 PM
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Alyosha
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What is specific about it is the proximity of the item box to the boss room. In most other areas, there is something of a dead zone between then last object and the boss room. Presumably this is done on purpose to clear out all objects before the boss spawns. In this case however the item can fly just far enough to still be spawned when the boss is supposed to appear. Done with a rough draft of act 4 and almost 1500 frames ahead. Sub 8 minutes may be possible. EDIT: powered through the rest of the game, the 5-2 boss skip was pretty easy. The final boss is significantly faster. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25041199123772823
Posted: 8/23/2015 9:51 PM
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Alyosha
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^ wow that is neat! I don't know exactly where that room is, but looks pretty likely its a time saver.
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