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Alyosha
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Dooty wrote:
That's some really good news, Alyosha! Having someone else to help you out is something of great value, so good luck to you two. I'd like to be of some assistance, but since I just played the first stage, I'm afraid I can't do much. In any case, you said you found the right frame to insert the coin. I just like to point out that it's better to insert just one coin at the title screen. You can insert the other two coins later, while the name of the stage is being displayed, without losing any time. Again, good luck with your project!
yup, I got that far : ) ...but not much further, it seems the game does some weird things with inputs, when I get one character doing what i want and try moving on to the other two, I noticed occasionally that the first character can drop an input somehow. So I've had to take itvery slow and haven't had a lot of time to work on it either. Being able to edit input in a .csv is the only thing that is saving me. How did you ever do this with a game controller D:
Alyosha
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^ That was well known to be possible, I think the question that everyone is trying to answer is what to do with the extra elements that the data structure allows. The poster in the doom forum even made a very similar comment when asked about the situation:
I can't think of anything - the game uses the ticcmd_t structure to define the input data for each tic, and the external control API lets you pass arbitrary data to the ticcmd_t structure, which logically includes any and all "legal" configurations. I do understand the dilemma this presents. The external control API was a real, purposely built part of the original game, with at least one actual driver released for it. It seems somewhat ridiculous to disallow it as a control scheme for demo recording - what, Wingman Warriors are banned? But at the same time, it has zero sanity checking on the data passed to the game that way, and lets you ludicrously do GF127/SR127, which is, oh, a mere 359% of normal running speed. You couldn't even say "well, allow anything that doesn't result in a %s is turbo message", because the game only checks the forward component for that, so you would end up with demos with GF50/SR127, which would be just awful. Another way would be to say, "well, we'll allow the exact input supported by the default Wingman Warrior driver", which would result in GF100/SR100 with full control: GF50/SR50 via keyboard / mouse, plus GF50/SR50 from the Wingman Warrior, plus turning control from the Wingman Warrior. (Has anyone ever done this IRL? I feel like SOMEONE must have noticed that you could haul ass with one hand on the joystick and the other hand on the keyboard.)
which indeed seems to be the same thing that remains to be sorted out here. (Well, the issue besides the demo file format itself, which at any rate seems not likely to be resolved easily.)
Alyosha
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Alright already under 30 now! Although I think I made the mistake of doing all the easy ones first, so now when I get stuck its hard to tell what to do next. I tried kabuki quantum fighter, and while some frames can be saved here or there it throws things off in other levels, so I have yet to save any frames overall. Combatribes will probably take a while, so there probably won't be much more movement here until some of the others finish their runs. As a side note, the other end of the longest non-obsoleted runs list is becoming pretty interesting too. A couple of stars (ninja gaiden 2 and super C), and some other interesting games like Star Fox and metroid fusion appear now. I wonder what can be done with star fox now with the newer emulators.
Alyosha
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Finally starting this run (after becoming frustrated on Kabuki Quantum Fighter) DiscoRico and I are teaming up! So far I got a basic input file editor Lua script working for final burn alpha, and with it found the first frame on which you can insert a coin (53) so that is a good start! I do not expect progress on this to be rapid, but slow and steady should create a good run.
Alyosha
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Truncated wrote:
I also know that turning during strafe50 is not possible with mouse and keyboard. It mostly seems to be a limitation of the original control scheme, because 1) strafe50 is allowed and 2) turning while strafing is allowed. The justification was that it is possible with an external driver, which Doom natively supports, so this is what a God player would use. That's what made me say that it was OK. You could of course argue that the limitation was done intentionally, and turning during strafe50 should be banned. Or that allowing movement larger than 50 backwards and sideways by using a driver was intentional. I don't think so, so that's not how I judged, but I admit we don't know.
The support comes from command line instruction '-control', which as far as I understand it provides an input structure that the driver writes to and then is passed to the game. The reason this allows strafe50+turns is that the game code won't call the routine that initiates the turn while in the strafe50 state. But the structure can be filled with the a turn value independently and sent to the game anyway, which fails to perform the same check on it. (I hope that is right) So allowing strafe50+turns is allowing the call of the '-control' instruction, which does seem to mean that all available states would have to be allowed (going backward faster than 50 etc) otherwise it would be a case of saying "you can use '-control' but only to do strafe50+turns" which seems a bit arbitrary. However no runs do that so this is still hypothetical. I guess my question here is when are command lines instructions such as that valid? Had the instruction simply been '-strafe50+turns' would that be allowed? Or since the game ordinarily doesn't support it would it be considered a cheat? A more obvious example would be '-run at speed 100' or some such thing.
Alyosha
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This is a fascinating technical dilemma, I'll be very interested to see where the line is drawn.
Samsara wrote:
I'm genuinely curious as to what MESHUGGAH had to say, though. Maybe we can call it the "MESHUGGAH Meltdown", in the spirit of whatever the fuck that quoted post was meant to be. Why was none of this brought up sooner in any of the other submissions?
It was, but MESHUGGAH seems to have put some effort into dissecting the game, and raises some real concerns. As I understand it, the problem is that the replay format bypasses the game engine processes in recreating the movie. Playing the game: Input->Game Engine->movement While the replay uses the movements the file contains directly, even though they are not derived from original inputs. This is complicated by the '-control' command line instruction, which seems to allow for non-standard input, which can none the less be considered 'officially' allowed due to the existence of such a command in the first place. MESHUGGAH's point (I think) is that the fact that the replay movies sync in the original DOOM does not mean that actual inputs could have produced that list of movements, i.e. playing the replay file is different then playing the game. But, this is what Truncated partly justified the original acceptance of the movie on. It's an interesting dilemma, but I wonder if it's interesting enough to change the precedent set by the now 3 publications?
Alyosha
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
I take it you had no luck skipping the monster in the pit? Sheesh, this run is 10 years old, and my only tools were frame advancing and an input display. I'm honestly surprised our run has held up so well this whole time.
none. I tried many locations and many angles. I was only able to get a clip in the stair type sections of the dungeon, but not very far into the wall. Well, you are very good at frame advance : )
Alyosha
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Thanks for clarifying that. The code that causes the final boss fight to end is only called in that particular room, so if anything strange is happening with the dragon it is a different cause altogether. I experimented a bit, the only things I have deduced is that the moving platforms don't move until you land on them. You can also land on the neck of the currently active dragon head. However you can't transform on the dragon, so you can't go through the fight without landing on them sadly to test. I did notice that it is slgihtly faster to transform after getting the purple crystal instead of before, because it kills all your momentum after you pick it up. Implementing this saved 5 frames. Still looking into that falling through platforms glitch.
Alyosha
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Submitted my Gauntlet TAS. The moment you can knock one more off your list is fast approaching! I may consider another TAS from this list. I'll think about it.
Great! I hope you find a game that suits your taste. With that and fist of the north star, the list is already down to 30! Although I do expect progress to slow down.
Post subject: Re: Small Improvement
Alyosha
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Dacicus wrote:
Actually, it is possible to save some time (maybe a second or two) by improving the jump as Kuros enters the third wizard guild. He needs some leftward momentum as he's entering the door, and he'll make it to the top of the steps in one jump.
I implemented this, it saves about 30 frames total.
scubed wrote:
It is possible to jump right below the top of a platform to fall through it. There was a movie demonstrating it. Unfortunately, we weren't able to get it to work consistently. That should allow easier access to the lower cave area.
Not sure what this is, I'll have to keep looking into it. I also figured out what room 1 is, it is the top of the tower. The special code in $A87B is written to keep Kuros from jumping to the left to reach the second level knights guild, so nothing special happening there.
Alyosha
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feos wrote:
Can you tell why it's not worth it?
It's just my opinion that whatever we put in a 'technical showcase' should meet the highest standards of what is authentically possible, but certainly the community can collectively decide where they want to draw that line.
Alyosha
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^thanks for that Dimon! Maybe I should try learning how to do that encoding stuff, is there a 'how to' guide anywhere?
Alyosha
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True wrote:
keep in mind there are more human inputs than controller inputs.
I like that : ) But I'm not really sure what you are proposing. Would you go with something even more general? @feos: 'prowess' may have been poor word choice there. 'Innovation' would probably be better. But anyway, in your example a bot-generated run on wii would be interesting, but I had something different in mind for technical innovation, more along the lines of what the games and hardware can do. I'll give another example, the fancy new n64 emulator CEN64 (or any ongoing emulator developments) if completed would be in its own right a technical achievement that would allow much more accurate TASes for that system to be generated, but as an example of what can be done with a game or hardware, it wouldn't provide anything new by itself. I hope this is a clear example. As for Adelikat's question of what is a showcase and not moon, in my mind it is like the complement of the question mark box designation. The top tier examples that can be considered cutting edge technically (even if their entertainment value is minimal.) The benefit is that it sets these runs apart in an easily accessible and searchable place, as opposed to being in the sea of ~900 moons TASes. For how they are picked, I think Grincevent said it pretty well. The 'beating the game' requirement might also help clarifying as well.
Alyosha
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Samsara wrote:
I've got a bit much on my plate at the moment, but sometime in the future I'd like to take a look at Star Ocean.
Cool! I'll make note of that. I don't think there is any hurry or anything, but I'm happy more of the list is claimed then I originally thought. Only 2 runs left in the 2XX series, anyone interested in Lagoon? I'll probably do Combatribes ... if I can find the motivation. If anyone wants to team up on that one too I am willing!
Alyosha
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A little update on this one. I tried figuring out why the boss dies in Dacicus' glitch, here is what I have so far. A subroutine at $A87B is being called which has some function in keeping track of fireballs. At the point the glitch occurs, fireball 1 (y value at $033D) has y-value 79 (#$4F) This makes a check fail comparing to #$50. At this point is where things get strange:
  $B2A8:BD 3C 03  LDA $033C,X @ $033D = #$4F                   A:04 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2AB:C9 50     CMP #$50                                     A:4F X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2AD:B0 AD     BCS $B25C                                    A:4F X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2AF:AD 0C 04  LDA $040C = #$00                             A:4F X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B2:D0 A8     BNE $B25C                                    A:00 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B4:A9 01     LDA #$01                                     A:00 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B6:8D 0C 04  STA $040C = #$00                             A:01 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B9:A9 C0     LDA #$C0                                     A:01 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2BB:99 A4 03  STA $03A4,Y @ $0435 = #$02                   A:C0 X:01 Y:91 S:FD
Register Y currently has a value related to Kuros' position on the screen. For no discernible reason, the code proceeds to use this register to store #$C0. The corresponding RAM address is $0435. Now, $0435 is the location of Mikail's current attack pattern. It ranges from 0-5. The game performs a check later on to check what pattern he is in, if it can't find a match (which it can't since it is set to #$C0) the fight ends. This explains why the fight ends, but not the graphical glitches. I'm not sure of the possibilities to do thing with this glitch outside this particular fight. EDIT: with some more analysis, it seems that block of code is specific to Mikail's room. The game checks a RAM address ($006B) that carries the current room designation, in this case it is 5. When it is 5 is the only time this block of code is called. As a side note, the game does another special check if the current room is 1. I so far have not found any room with such a designation, although it might be worth looking into further.
Alyosha
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z1mb0bw4y wrote:
I'm picking up Metal Storm. Improved 8 frames on password input. Hopefully more to come lol.
Awesome! I admit I was a bit intimidated to try that one, I hope you keep finding improvements as easy as that one.
Alyosha
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@feos: My thought there was that since these demonstrations are meant to showcase technical prowess, they should meet the highest standards of verifiability (use real hardware.) This isn't to say that console replays alone are the tech demos, but whatever technical process is being demonstrated should have a console verified component along with it, at least in my mind.
Alyosha
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Well since I did say I strongly support the idea, I will at least take a shot this. Overview: I think the overview section is fine. Technical Requirements: Demonstrations should: -execute a novel concept on a gaming device beyond that which is attainable through controller inputs alone. OR -Use controller inputs to perform a novel action aside from beating (or simply crashing) the game. In addition, demonstrations must be considered a significant new contribution to existing material, and be demonstrated on reference hardware. Notes: I think the section as originally written uses existing examples to shape the requirements a bit too much, so I personally prefer something broader like this. TASing itself originally could have been considered a technical demonstration, yet it wouldn't fit the original definition. Entertainment Requirements: I think the first and third bullets are fine, with the second bullet unneccesary Speed Requirements: Maybe someone else can add useful input here, I'm not sure what to make of it. Goal Choice / Obsoletion Looks good to me Documentation -All parts of the Demonstration should be sufficiently documented such that it can be reproduced substantially from the submitted material. Notes: I add in a documentation section as this tier is supposed to bring novel concepts that add to the knowledge base, and as such should be thoroughly documented
Alyosha
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Odongdong wrote:
I was working on SNES Prince of Persia, actually.
Oh nice! Are you still working on it? If not I would like to see any work you have, I was thinking of working on that one fairly soon.
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Well I guess the RNG problem was solved by HHS, at least in part thanks to some technological advancement, nice! Anyone have any other noteworthy problems to add? Given that a mega man TAS has recently been rejected, I wonder also about the 'no magnet beam' run. Is there any plausible way such a thing might be done?
Alyosha
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^Nice work on those by the way. I looked at Rad Racer myself briefly but couldn't get much out of it. Looking forward to seeing gauntlet in the submissions. Won't be too long before we are under 30 runs left!
Alyosha
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^ I'm not sure what you mean by that. Flashback is published hurray! I noticed FatRatKnight's WIP too, surprisingly large improvement. Unfortunately I think all the really easy ones are done. I tried looking at kabuki Quantum Fighter and so far can't save even 1 frame. Maybe I will try Wizards and warriors 3 next.
Alyosha
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It could be because the file is the converted version of the original run (fcm->fm2) that it is coming up as FDS. Same with the Jackie Chan run. As for the blue robot fight, yeah I was surprised when I saw that worked as well (completely by accident.) You might also notice that I only actually hit one of the robots. The fight takes the same amount of time for the robots to actually die, the improvement comes from the fact that they die further away from me, so I can start moving earlier, saving about 5 frames.
Alyosha
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Oh, what a great idea! As someone who doesn't find TASes generally interesting to watch, but is fascinated by the more clever and technical things that can be accomplished, I strongly support this idea. I would say the 'technical requirements' section as written now is maybe over specific, but I think its a good start.
Alyosha
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Mothrayas wrote:
A few years ago I tried to make an arcade SF2:TWW playaround run, using glitches like handcuffs and all the other things Guile can do, invisible Dhalsim, player vs player fights, etc., although I never got far with it. A good playaround/glitchfest would probably be able to obsolete both SNES runs.
I have a question related to this, and preferred game version in general. How is the preferred version/port of a game decided? Is there a list? For example NES Double Dragon is also on this list, but there are surely plenty of other ports of that game, so should I do NES double dragon or the Genesis Version (which also has a published run) or something else?